Firstly, a bit of trivia as to what I'm doing....
Trying to da a bit of 'forward planning' at the moment on my zook because the body is off, and it's in a thousand pieces. Currently mixing and matching parts to get the crap box back on the road and registered ASAP, and then I'll be doing suspension mods once I've got that little sticker on the windscreen.
My longterm plan is to have a SPOA on the front, with a pair of Vitara rear trailing arms for the 'lower link' (my tape measure says they will bolt straight up to the existing front mount for the rear spring) and either a R.Rover upper link or home fabbed version using Heim joint at the diff(anyone recommend a particular brand & size....?).
Back to the main question, since the body is off I figure if I was smart I should weld in some mounts for shock's (front & rear) and maybe even lash out and make the mounts for the rear upper link etc, in a effort to make the 'changeover process' a bit quicker and easier on myself when I get round to fitting the diffs I want.
Trying to decide between a 1/4 elliptical setup, or coil springs, or whether I'm getting to fancy and should be content with either the SPOA setup on the rear with longer springs etc.
What do you guys who have used these setups reckon? I'm steering toward playing with a coilsetup like Jamies, the fabrication work doesn't phase me but keen to hear some educated opinions on userfriendly alternatives.
Note: the chariot will see regular street duties as the wife has stipulated that it has to be 'safe' as she want's to drive it to work occasionally.
Thanks in advance....
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Rear Suspension, lower trail'g arms & triangulated upper
Rear Suspension, lower trail'g arms & triangulated upper
- Drewfus Designs -
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
Re: Rear Suspension, lower trail'g arms & triangulated u
Drewfus wrote:Trying to decide between a 1/4 elliptical setup, or coil springs, or whether I'm getting to fancy and should be content with either the SPOA setup on the rear with longer springs etc.
What do you guys who have used these setups reckon? I'm steering toward playing with a coilsetup like Jamies, the fabrication work doesn't phase me but keen to hear some educated opinions on userfriendly alternatives.
I've been thinking about 1/4 eliptic vs 3/4 eliptic vs coilover in the back of mine too...
I get the impression that there is a lot of work in the 1/4 eliptic, the 3/4 is going to be the easiest to setup - but i'm not sure how well it will work on a swb, and the coilover looks like it works like mad - but i'm not sure about the costs of the coilovers, or the setting up of the control arms etc...
can of worms - but i'm definately looking forward to seeing which path you take
DMA Founding Member #1 - Now Retired
grimbo wrote:are you going spring over in the front or using coils?
Why use Vitara trailing arms when you are using leaves.
spoa front
coil / 1/4 eleptic rear
i assume the trailing arms are for the rear
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[url]http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com[/url]
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SPOA front.
In regard to the front suspension, I did think about coils, but have chosen to 'be content' with the leafs due to it's simplicity, and the fact that I have no real desire to 'compete' hence no need for maximum articulation (I just want a 'better than average rig so that I can go 'wheeling' with my friends who are into competition rigs).
I recognise that 'the best' atriculation is gained when both the front and rear setups 'compliment' each other, ie 'good' articulation front & rear is better than 'great' artic. on the rear & 'average' on the front.
In regard to the rear, I spoke to Jamie a while back, and he recommended the Vitara arms, I've since measured them up, and yep, will fit beautifully, as I'll just have to make the plates for the rear diff.
Greg, you explained my mental prediciment exactly, would love coilovers, that is definately the preffered option in my mind as it removes alot of the bracketry required to set the rearend up (not to mention adjust if desired). The suppliers I've talked to won't give me a firm price, but I suspect when I find one that does I better be sitting down.
Have been toying with a 3/4 setup due to it's simplicity and cheap cost (if I do it myself from stuff I've got), but keep thinking that the other options would offer better results.........Grimbo what do you reckon?
Again, I'm steering toward the coils on the rearend as that's what I'm familiar with, but since my 'A framing' experience is with large & heavy vehicles (my friends and I have been playing with a cut up R/Rover and a hilux) I keen to explore other options which might be equally effective.......
(photo is of the RR we're currently preparing for competition....please excuse the blasphemy)
In regard to the front suspension, I did think about coils, but have chosen to 'be content' with the leafs due to it's simplicity, and the fact that I have no real desire to 'compete' hence no need for maximum articulation (I just want a 'better than average rig so that I can go 'wheeling' with my friends who are into competition rigs).
I recognise that 'the best' atriculation is gained when both the front and rear setups 'compliment' each other, ie 'good' articulation front & rear is better than 'great' artic. on the rear & 'average' on the front.
In regard to the rear, I spoke to Jamie a while back, and he recommended the Vitara arms, I've since measured them up, and yep, will fit beautifully, as I'll just have to make the plates for the rear diff.
Greg, you explained my mental prediciment exactly, would love coilovers, that is definately the preffered option in my mind as it removes alot of the bracketry required to set the rearend up (not to mention adjust if desired). The suppliers I've talked to won't give me a firm price, but I suspect when I find one that does I better be sitting down.
Have been toying with a 3/4 setup due to it's simplicity and cheap cost (if I do it myself from stuff I've got), but keep thinking that the other options would offer better results.........Grimbo what do you reckon?
Again, I'm steering toward the coils on the rearend as that's what I'm familiar with, but since my 'A framing' experience is with large & heavy vehicles (my friends and I have been playing with a cut up R/Rover and a hilux) I keen to explore other options which might be equally effective.......
(photo is of the RR we're currently preparing for competition....please excuse the blasphemy)
- Drewfus Designs -
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
Nice rangie, altho i wouldn't compete with all that stuff in the back 
As to your plans I reckon 3/4 is a good cheap option that does work nicely. 1/4 tend to be a bit floppy as they provide oodles of uncontrolled flex in the rear but when the front doesn't match the travel, will tend to fall over.
the 3/4 is a lot more progressive easier to make esp on a nt as the springs mount directly under the frame so all you have to do is cut the shackle hanger off, cut a main leaf in half and bolt one end to the shackle and double u bolt the either end to the frame or make a nice mount.
I really want to go Fox Air Shocks in the front of mine once $$$ allows. Gets away with having the problem of coils and shocks or coilovers. For a light car like the Zuk should be a good option as evidenced by randy Ellis' green Zuk buggy.
As to your plans I reckon 3/4 is a good cheap option that does work nicely. 1/4 tend to be a bit floppy as they provide oodles of uncontrolled flex in the rear but when the front doesn't match the travel, will tend to fall over.
the 3/4 is a lot more progressive easier to make esp on a nt as the springs mount directly under the frame so all you have to do is cut the shackle hanger off, cut a main leaf in half and bolt one end to the shackle and double u bolt the either end to the frame or make a nice mount.
I really want to go Fox Air Shocks in the front of mine once $$$ allows. Gets away with having the problem of coils and shocks or coilovers. For a light car like the Zuk should be a good option as evidenced by randy Ellis' green Zuk buggy.
Ransom note = demand + collage
What are the prices you have that are not yet firm on the Coil Overs?
I've heard that there's a fellow in Melbourne that will take your shocks and turn them into coilovers. But i don't know if that's how they're all made though.
I guess if you keep it all leaf sprung, then you won't need to do the maths / calculations / development to get it to work - and if you're a reader of Peterson's in the recent months you would have seen that there is a heck of a lot to think about when developing your setup with coils and control arms etc...
My setup is a pretty simple one that has so far been working really well... I'm just running Old Man Emu rear springs at the front and at the back, with some Rancho 9112x shocks on custom mounts... There is some fabrication required to get this to work, and the obvious costs involved beside the fabrication time and steel are just Springs, Shocks and longer brake lines.
Once you have this setup working, you'll find that it has solved a few problems for you by moving your front axel forward a bit - this means you can fit a bigger tyre in there without hitting the fire wall. You can mess around with a few things like bump stops and spring hangers - which you can move inboard to meet narrow track specs (unless your's is a narrow track), to increase leverage on the springs and force more travel into the car. It would also be feasible to upgrade to being 3/4 in the back (but you will have to do something with your fuel filler hose to keep it away from the springs).
Just a few ideas to think about i guess...
I've heard that there's a fellow in Melbourne that will take your shocks and turn them into coilovers. But i don't know if that's how they're all made though.
I guess if you keep it all leaf sprung, then you won't need to do the maths / calculations / development to get it to work - and if you're a reader of Peterson's in the recent months you would have seen that there is a heck of a lot to think about when developing your setup with coils and control arms etc...
My setup is a pretty simple one that has so far been working really well... I'm just running Old Man Emu rear springs at the front and at the back, with some Rancho 9112x shocks on custom mounts... There is some fabrication required to get this to work, and the obvious costs involved beside the fabrication time and steel are just Springs, Shocks and longer brake lines.
Once you have this setup working, you'll find that it has solved a few problems for you by moving your front axel forward a bit - this means you can fit a bigger tyre in there without hitting the fire wall. You can mess around with a few things like bump stops and spring hangers - which you can move inboard to meet narrow track specs (unless your's is a narrow track), to increase leverage on the springs and force more travel into the car. It would also be feasible to upgrade to being 3/4 in the back (but you will have to do something with your fuel filler hose to keep it away from the springs).
Just a few ideas to think about i guess...
DMA Founding Member #1 - Now Retired
sorry - forgot to add that you can also mess around with the springs themselves to make them softer by removing leaves and the spring clamps etc...
One more thing - considering how much travel a vitara has (which i suspect is not very much), how much do you plan on getting out your your car? Isn't the amount of travel controlled by the length of the arm?
One more thing - considering how much travel a vitara has (which i suspect is not very much), how much do you plan on getting out your your car? Isn't the amount of travel controlled by the length of the arm?
DMA Founding Member #1 - Now Retired
Greg, good point's and suggestions, in regards to the length of the Vitara arms/flex issue, yep, totally agree. I did originally plan to use Nis. Patrol rear trailing arms for the rear which I believe would be best option (the new mounting bracket would be very close to being 'in line' with the tailshafts uni joint where it meets the T/case, which would be an advantage as the slipjoint wouldn't be working as much).
The reason I mentioned the Vit. unit is because:-
* it will go into an existing mount, hence one less job to do, plus the engineer will prefer it that way I believe as its already prooven.
* I'm on the hunt/negotiating for a pair of Hilux diffs, which, due to their larger width will assist in the flex/scrubbing issues.
* as seen on Jamies zook(see attached photo) the rear flex is nothing to be sneezed at (admittantly, the front flex is certainly contributing, but still, I would be content if my rig was almost as good).
Spring rates, yeah, alot to consider, but then again, I think it's possible to get close to the mark if you do the homework, especially if you look at some of the late model corrolla's (and the like)etc in wrecking yards, there i a fair variety of 'off the shelf' possibilities.
Likewise, the leaf springs certainly offer alot of variable's if one's prepared to mix'n'match.
Coilovers, will have to find my paperwork/homework as to prices I've been 'ballparked' (does Sam sell them?).
As a side note, I'm into old school hotrods (currently playing with one of those as well which is not good) and I'm fitting a 'transverse rear leaf setup to it's rearend with a central pivoting ladderbar arrangement (will find a photo to explain that one....), has anyone plated with this kind of setup. Been thinking that if you had a pivoting mount for the spring which could be locked in place with a pin (for on road use) and then allowed to pivot when pin is pulled out (for off road use) in a light rig like a zook you could have a large articulation but without the negative result of the C of G moving far from the driving plane of the wheels (ie the diff kinda pivots around the centreline of the chassis as opposed to the distance from the centre of the diff to the middle of the chassis going from say 8" to 16".......does any of that make sense?
Better run, chores to complete.
The reason I mentioned the Vit. unit is because:-
* it will go into an existing mount, hence one less job to do, plus the engineer will prefer it that way I believe as its already prooven.
* I'm on the hunt/negotiating for a pair of Hilux diffs, which, due to their larger width will assist in the flex/scrubbing issues.
* as seen on Jamies zook(see attached photo) the rear flex is nothing to be sneezed at (admittantly, the front flex is certainly contributing, but still, I would be content if my rig was almost as good).
Spring rates, yeah, alot to consider, but then again, I think it's possible to get close to the mark if you do the homework, especially if you look at some of the late model corrolla's (and the like)etc in wrecking yards, there i a fair variety of 'off the shelf' possibilities.
Likewise, the leaf springs certainly offer alot of variable's if one's prepared to mix'n'match.
Coilovers, will have to find my paperwork/homework as to prices I've been 'ballparked' (does Sam sell them?).
As a side note, I'm into old school hotrods (currently playing with one of those as well which is not good) and I'm fitting a 'transverse rear leaf setup to it's rearend with a central pivoting ladderbar arrangement (will find a photo to explain that one....), has anyone plated with this kind of setup. Been thinking that if you had a pivoting mount for the spring which could be locked in place with a pin (for on road use) and then allowed to pivot when pin is pulled out (for off road use) in a light rig like a zook you could have a large articulation but without the negative result of the C of G moving far from the driving plane of the wheels (ie the diff kinda pivots around the centreline of the chassis as opposed to the distance from the centre of the diff to the middle of the chassis going from say 8" to 16".......does any of that make sense?
Better run, chores to complete.
- Drewfus Designs -
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
there is a yellow buggy being used by the Allen Brothers in Arizona that is using the transverse spring idea to pretty good effect. i think the buggy is called Twister. if you do a search on Pirate something may turn up.
What about using Bundera trailing arms or even range Rover as they may be more in keeping with Suzuli size rather than the Nissan ones which maybe a bt of overkill in size
What about using Bundera trailing arms or even range Rover as they may be more in keeping with Suzuli size rather than the Nissan ones which maybe a bt of overkill in size
Ransom note = demand + collage
Did some quick measurements last night:
*Patrol lower trailing arms are 680 long (centre to centre), Tubing O/Dia 32
*R/Rover Lower trailing arms are 715 long( from front mounting face to the diff mounting pin) Tubing O/Dia is 32 also.
Will have to go and measure a Vitara one.....
*Patrol lower trailing arms are 680 long (centre to centre), Tubing O/Dia 32
*R/Rover Lower trailing arms are 715 long( from front mounting face to the diff mounting pin) Tubing O/Dia is 32 also.
Will have to go and measure a Vitara one.....
- Drewfus Designs -
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
"Build it small, DRIVE it big..."
The Vitara arms would be too small for a controllable link system.
As for the setup please 1/4 isn't as unstable as everyone thinks. My old Zook was setup incorrectly that is why it was so floppy if you have a properly setup link arrangment , spring rate and shock placement it is as stable as any setup.My new buggy is 10 times more stable than the old one.We have got it on angles that would amaze you all and it didn't fall.
SAM
As for the setup please 1/4 isn't as unstable as everyone thinks. My old Zook was setup incorrectly that is why it was so floppy if you have a properly setup link arrangment , spring rate and shock placement it is as stable as any setup.My new buggy is 10 times more stable than the old one.We have got it on angles that would amaze you all and it didn't fall.
SAM
OVERKILL ENGINEERING
www.overkill4x4.com
www.overkill4x4.com
How the world's changed - Grimbo used to post tech!
to revive the dig though - I've built a few cars now with no attention really paid at all to rear flex ( longer softer shocks, shortish shackles etc) and having a very flexy front and a planted stable rear makes for a very capable climber.
However, I'm working on a build atm on a LWB with 10" longer eye/eye rear springs. This will use all the travel of an N76 and will run with about 50-75mm of rear compression at ride height (and lots of droop)
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this car balances up as it will have "conventional" full RUF/N76 in the front.
Wheelbase will be about 7.5" over stock LWB (no chassis stretch at the rear), so pretty much 100" WB so it should ride nicely too
Steve.
to revive the dig though - I've built a few cars now with no attention really paid at all to rear flex ( longer softer shocks, shortish shackles etc) and having a very flexy front and a planted stable rear makes for a very capable climber.
However, I'm working on a build atm on a LWB with 10" longer eye/eye rear springs. This will use all the travel of an N76 and will run with about 50-75mm of rear compression at ride height (and lots of droop)
I'm really looking forward to seeing how this car balances up as it will have "conventional" full RUF/N76 in the front.
Wheelbase will be about 7.5" over stock LWB (no chassis stretch at the rear), so pretty much 100" WB so it should ride nicely too
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I'm not sure that agreeing 5 years down the track is necessary. im sure a decision on flex was made earlier.just cruizin' wrote:I agree front flex feels a lot more stable then a vehicle with heaps of rear only flex
but go your hardest.
this truck is not yet built but I am pretty sure it is still in the hands of drewfus who among his other projects has built a dragster
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/show ... p?t=223443
hurry up and build your zook drewfus
drag cars just are not as fun
can you really feel 1/10th of a difference when your in a fast car?
or is it better when you stick it to someone when you can drive something they cant!
ashley
build http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic130159.php&highlight=
IMHO = who cares if your Opinion is Humble! its your opinion isn't it?
so IMO it a waste of a H
IMHO = who cares if your Opinion is Humble! its your opinion isn't it?
so IMO it a waste of a H
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