G13BB vs G16BB

[greg]

Hi All,

Here's my first tech thread ever

Has anyone mixed and matched a G16BB block with a G13BB manifold before?

I have a G13BB that I was considering swapping some parts with a G16BB to up the capacity to 1.6L.

Here are my questions:
1. Will all the engine pieces bolt together
2. Will the G13BB computer and Manifold (fueling setup) handle the extra capacity
3. How different are the bosses on the passenger side of the engine – i.e. will my accessories come close to fitting up to the G16BB block

Basically I am trying to determine if I can end up with a 1.6L engine with very little work, or if I am better off biting the bullet and doing a complete 1.6L engine + wiring install.

Thanks,
Greg

[Spike_Sierra]

...G16B*
I checked the duty cycle of the G13BB injectors and they were no where near full capicity so I think the extra capacity will be no problem. Its only an extra 75cc or so each injector.






*This post contains no further tech.

[nicbeer]

The G13bb is dizzy? and not coilpack i assume?

if you have any accesorries that bolt onto the head and block then they will have issues as there is a difference in height.

also depends on what u can get your hands on re: parts.

[greg]

The G13bb is dizzy? and not coilpack i assume?

if you have any accesorries that bolt onto the head and block then they will have issues as there is a difference in height.

also depends on what u can get your hands on re: parts.

G13BB is a Jimny Coilpack.

I have an endless air and power steer pump on a custom bracket - trying to work out how close it will come to fitting the G16BB block.

[greg]

...G16B*
I checked the duty cycle of the G13BB injectors and they were no where near full capicity so I think the extra capacity will be no problem. Its only an extra 75cc or so each injector.

*This post contains no further tech.

Does that mean it will run correctly though? i.e. will the ECM make the injectors pump in that extra fuel as required? or will it always run lean? i think this is the big issue - does the swap mean that really i need the G16BB ECM - and therefore all the wiring has to be done again etc...

[Spike_Sierra]

well i would assume that the o2 sensor would pick up on the minor variation in air/fuel ratio and reteach the ecu, but hey, im asking the same questions in my thread

[joeblow]

i ran a g16 block in my g13bb jimny, and kept it all jimny injection. never had a drama with it.

[greg]

1324 / 4 = 331cc per cylinder approx

75 / 331 = 22%

I'm not sure that 22% could be considered a "small" variation - but i don't know what sort of margins they would use when making these widgets.

[greg]

i ran a g16 block in my g13bb jimny, and kept it all jimny injection. never had a drama with it.

could you comment on the other queries Joe?

how did the accessories line up on the block?

i'm assuming different exhuast manifold between the two also.

[cj]

Jeez Greg, all these tech type questions and posts. What's going on?

The 16v G13BB and G16B share the same head (same part number). The injectors have the same or similar capacity when I checked so they are not an issue. You can use the stock exhaust manifold or go with extractors. Just give Mitch a call as he has done it and has all the answers you need.

[BenT]

I've sold an adaptor kit to a guy who put a G15 (same block as G16, just smaller bore) into his Jimny.
He used the Jimny intake manifold and ECU. He mentioned the injectors were different colours between the two, so could be different flow rate, but I don't know which he is using. I will find out along what other tricks he came up with.

The accessory bolt pattern on the passenger side of the block is slightly different on the G16 vs G13. The pattern is very similar, but a couple of holes are moved around. One at the bottom is out by 20 or 30mm, and there is something different at the top too, but I cant remember which hole.

I made an endless air and power steer pump bracket for my G16 too, and it has a dual bolt pattern so it will also fit the G13.

There are some differences in the water pipe on the drivers side to from memory. I will find out more.

Ben

[joeblow]

i ran a g16 block in my g13bb jimny, and kept it all jimny injection. never had a drama with it.

could you comment on the other queries Joe?

how did the accessories line up on the block?

i'm assuming different exhuast manifold between the two also.

i threw in an aw4 auto on its own with the conversion. as for exhaust if you get hold of a 1.6 16 valve type 2 manifold it will pretty much bolt up as the g13bb and late model 1.6 had the same spring loaded 'dohnut' setup ( is a great manifold, no cracking, good flow and took up the extra height of the block). did a full sniff test too....all was fine. as for accesories i can't remember having much of a problem, i also fitted vit/toyota power steer and think i ran the 1.6 aircon and pump brackets. oh...and i think i did it in about 4 days, but i did have a large assortment of various bits at the workshop.

[mr green]

this is very similar to what i have. still in the build stage but i have a g16b block with g13bb head and injection on it. i haven't driven it yet but i have had it running in the floor ok. if you already have the g13bb in your car the things that i know of that will need changing is the obvious engine mounts and gearbox adapter, the water outlet in the back of the water pump has to have the mounting bracket moved back bout an inch or so, the alternator swaps over ok, if the power steer pump doesn't swap over you should be able to use a 1.6 bracket and the a/c comp will depend on which one you have. should be a good setup, all the technology of the g16b baleno motor without the east west hassles.

[greg]

Thanks Team, it's looking like i am certainly not alone heading down this route in the chase for a few more CCs...

Here comes my next issue:

The car is currently running the 4 speed Jimny Auto behind the engine. I am assuming that i can keep the auto cool enough to handle that massive extra 12kw of power.

If i run a typical 1.6L to 1.3L adaptor plate (i.e. Trail Tough), i will end up with approx 10mm spacing between the block and the box right? Will that result in enough spline "coverage" between the Jimny torque converter and the Jimny gearbox? Or will i need to go the other route and drill another hole in the block / attach ears to the gearbox?

Thanks again,
Greg

[joeblow]

you could make up a spacer plate that slips in the recess on the flex plate. i don't think you will have to go the full 10mm, but something is better than nothing.

[BenT]

If i run a typical 1.6L to 1.3L adaptor plate (i.e. Trail Tough), i will end up with approx 10mm spacing between the block and the box right? Will that result in enough spline "coverage" between the Jimny torque converter and the Jimny gearbox? Or will i need to go the other route and drill another hole in the block / attach ears to the gearbox?

I don't know about the Trail Tough adaptor plate, but mine are 6mm thick. Don't forget you take out the factory sandwhich plate and replace it with the adaptor, so you end up with the box being about 4mm further away from the block. On a manual there is enough length on the input shaft and gearbox nose to cope with this.
I'm not sure about the auto, but I'd expect it would be OK.

I got some more info from the guy running a G15 in a Jimny.. He tells me it ran OK with the Jimny 1300 injectors, but ran better when he swapped them for the G15 injectors, as you might expect.

He also used the Jimny cam. I'm not sure why, but will find out.


Ben

[joeblow]

if the donor 1.6 has a dizzy than you have to run the jimny cam, if it is coil pack you should be able to use it.

[greg]

i plan on waiting until i can pick up a coil pack Baleno engine - so i expect the cam in the 1.6 should be ok.

[greg]

If i run a typical 1.6L to 1.3L adaptor plate (i.e. Trail Tough), i will end up with approx 10mm spacing between the block and the box right? Will that result in enough spline "coverage" between the Jimny torque converter and the Jimny gearbox? Or will i need to go the other route and drill another hole in the block / attach ears to the gearbox?

I don't know about the Trail Tough adaptor plate, but mine are 6mm thick. Don't forget you take out the factory sandwhich plate and replace it with the adaptor, so you end up with the box being about 4mm further away from the block. On a manual there is enough length on the input shaft and gearbox nose to cope with this.
I'm not sure about the auto, but I'd expect it would be OK.

I got some more info from the guy running a G15 in a Jimny.. He tells me it ran OK with the Jimny 1300 injectors, but ran better when he swapped them for the G15 injectors, as you might expect.

He also used the Jimny cam. I'm not sure why, but will find out.

Ben

6mm? it could well be. i've got it at home - so i'm really only bench racing here by memory. 4mm sounds ok. I already think there might be some trickiness to get the Jimny Flexi plate to work with the vitara engine - so if a spacer is required - that i will be the obvious place to squeeze it in there.

Your comment about the injectors doesn't please me though. I was thinking that the ECM would detect that the motor is running lean and would just add more fuel using the Jimny injectors.

[BenT]

I already think there might be some trickiness to get the Jimny Flexi plate to work with the vitara engine - so if a spacer is required - that i will be the obvious place to squeeze it in there.

There shouldn't be too many hassles... the 1300 flywheel bolts straight up to the 1600, and the flex-plate should have the same geometry as a flywheel in terms of lining up with the starter and clearing the block etc.

Your comment about the injectors doesn't please me though. I was thinking that the ECM would detect that the motor is running lean and would just add more fuel using the Jimny injectors.

The ECU should adjust when in closed loop, but might be out when in open loop - eg cold start, WOT etc. Why not take that out of the equation by using injectors matched to the engine - assuming your motor comes with injectors.

I would definately get the coilpack Baleno motor. They are a nice motor. The G15 the guy used was a coilpack version, hence I'm not sure why he changed the cam.

Ben

[mr green]

greg i don't think i would be as worried about injectors as the ecm mapping. most injectors have the capacity to flow more than the ecm will ever request, so i can't imagine that swapping injectors will be a fix. as BenT said in closed loop it should sort it self out but could go out elsewhere. i would run it before you fiddle around with air/fuel ratio concerns and see what happens in real life. but if you are thinking of putting a baleno engine in you might as well put the whole conversion in so its all factory and sell your g13bb. but as far as making the mixture richer to compensate for more air, the capacity is going to be higher all the time so the increase in fuel should be constant as well. my approach would be with an adjustable fuel reg and leave all the electrics alone. get the a/f right at full throttle, let the 02 do the cruise and hope the idle is close enough

[Gwagensteve]

I think Greg is keen to keep the jimny inlet manifold so the water neck etc stays in the stock spot, which them leads to using the jimny loom etc (some sensors are slightly different. Also, Greg has a G13BB auto and transmission control which all works perfectly.

I think he's basically trying do avoid doing another conversion...

Steve.

[greg]

Indeed - i am doing the conversion in "planning mode" to see just how close i can get to pulling the current engine and simply bolting in another one (or part there of) for mo' power.

current line of thinking was that the swap was only as far away as:
1. adapt gearbox to G16BB block
2. adapt current accessories to G16BB block
3. engine mount
4. exhaust manifold / extractor

i.e. the same jobs that someone would do if swapping a carb 1.3 to a carb 1.6.

The poor little car already spends too much time sitting idle in the shed for me to want to start up another conversion (unless a J20A auto fell in my lap).

[Spike_Sierra]

hey greg, whats wrong with the standard G13BB?

oh and the baleo/vitara motor is just a G16B not G16BB.

the hybrid you plan to make will be more like a G16BB.

[greg]

hey greg, whats wrong with the standard G13BB?

oh and the baleo/vitara motor is just a G16B not G16BB.

the hybrid you plan to make will be more like a G16BB.

There's nothing wrong with the motor... it just seems like an "easy" means of scoring another 12kw (20%) power without much more work since all the wiring and efi has already been done.

The G13BB was never my planned choice to start with - it was more a means of achieving what i wanted gearbox wise (i.e. the 4 speed jimny auto)... which - if you have ever seen one, is definately the most eligant way i squeezing an automatic into the little hole where the sierra 5 speed was.

Swapping the block to the 1.6L is almost looking like a bolt on mod - like a bigger exhaust.

One could suggest that it could be even less work than your supercharger - with an almost "known" result - 12kw power (20% increase), 30nm torque (approx 30%). hard to argue with that sort of result from a "bolt on".

[Spike_Sierra]

good answer, i like.
Cant beat proven results, and gearbox adaptors and engine mounts are easy to source.