SUSPENSION SETUP WINCH CHALLENGES

[coxy321]

Front radius arm setup as factory
Rear 5 link as factory

Are you for real? Leave stock front radius arms on a 4" lift? No castor correction?

Note Nissan spent millions to design these cars and they do work well with some strengthening to some components

Aren't ALL cars like this? Cars are built to a price, not a standard.[/quote]

[ACF]

Front radius arm setup as factory
Rear 5 link as factory

Are you for real? Leave stock front radius arms on a 4" lift? No castor correction?

Note Nissan spent millions to design these cars and they do work well with some strengthening to some components

Aren't ALL cars like this? Cars are built to a price, not a standard.

[/quote]


If you read my post it says.....front radius arm setup as factory.

Drop boxes......better, reducing downward angle($$$)

Aftermarket billet arms with castor correction....great(but $$$$$$)

Drop boxes with billet arms.....best($$$$$$$$$$$$$$)


Certainly cars are built to a price with componantry,.........but suspension geomentary has to be 100% otherwise the vehicle wouldn't drive out of the showroom.

[SuperiorEngineering]

am starting to slowly build a winch truck swb patrol so far i am going make it a ute wheelbase extension etc but was wondering what is the best suspension setup any help and pics appreciated

It seems this post has gone completely of track from the original question

Price for any suspension set up depends on what you want to achieve.
As far as WINCH CHALLENGE vehicles are concerned the suspension setup for your mid wheel base should be something as follows.............

Spring lift no more than 4"
Shocks no longer than 10" front, 12" rear
Modified bump stops
Front radius arm setup as factory
Rear 5 link as factory

Quality bolt on shocks are fine, can upgrade to .........dual shocks, smoothies, bypass.......At your expence

Coil overs are great but same deal no bigger than 10" / 12"

Anything that keeps your car low and stable is a positive
Anything that lifts your car and creates uneeded excess wheel travel is a negative


Note Nissan spent millions to design these cars and they do work well with some strengthening to some components

You have to remember winch challenge trucks certainly are not low budget trucks anymore, anywhere from 30K-100K+ The setup you have said would be okay for someone with a low budget buildup, the setup DEFINETALY will not be as capable or competitive as some of the setups mentioned previously. Their are a lot of Winch Challenge trucks running longarms and superflex arms and they do handle much better on hill climbs and the tight stuff than trucks running "standard 5 link and radius arms"
Flat out high speed than by all means the Drop box's will be better.
Some of the winch challenge trucks and Owners still live in the stone age as far as technology and thinking OUTSIDE THE SQUARE
and why is 10" and 12" shocks the best???????????
How bout Just put on simex , winch , standard 5 link and radius arms standard TD42 and bore the shit out of the spectators

[Bush65]

...

- What is the vehicles "instant centre"?
...

Coxy

Just my 2 cents to clear up what the instant centre is.

Firstly I'm not critical of 1MadEngineer - he was explaining how instant centre fits in the scheme of things.

But he missed explaining exactly what instant centre is, and why it is named just that, and focused on what many want to know.

Concentrate on the 1st sketch that shows the upper and lower links, the axle housing and instant centre. Ignore the other information on that sketch for now.

The 2 links (only considering one side here) are fixed to the chassis at one end and the axle at the other end. When the axle end moves up/down, the links force it to swing through an arc.

Now it happens that the centre of the radius that the axle follows is at the point where the projected lines through the links intersect - as drawn on the sketch.

But, as the axle moves, the angle of the links change and so does their intersection. That is why it is called instant centre - it is only at that position for one instant, then it is somewhere else.

If the links were parallel, the instant centre is at infinity.

[1MadEngineer]

...

- What is the vehicles "instant centre"?
...

Coxy

Just my 2 cents to clear up what the instant centre is.

Firstly I'm not critical of 1MadEngineer - he was explaining how instant centre fits in the scheme of things.

But he missed explaining exactly what instant centre is, and why it is named just that, and focused on what many want to know.

Concentrate on the 1st sketch that shows the upper and lower links, the axle housing and instant centre. Ignore the other information on that sketch for now.

The 2 links (only considering one side here) are fixed to the chassis at one end and the axle at the other end. When the axle end moves up/down, the links force it to swing through an arc.

Now it happens that the centre of the radius that the axle follows is at the point where the projected lines through the links intersect - as drawn on the sketch.

But, as the axle moves, the angle of the links change and so does their intersection. That is why it is called instant centre - it is only at that position for one instant, then it is somewhere else.

If the links were parallel, the instant centre is at infinity.

yep what he said! I was just giving a breif intro to chassis dynamics, i even bore myself when trying to explain it properly

[1MadEngineer]

Certainly cars are built to a price with componantry,.........but suspension geomentary has to be 100% otherwise the vehicle wouldn't drive out of the showroom.

NO, as everyone will agree cars are built with road manners as there primary concern and suspension articulation as a bonus! OEM's aren't really concerned about how much diff steer your 5"lifted truck is going to get, or how much wheel recession you will have when driving 3ft whoops at 80kph. They are concerned with suspension frequency or anti pitch values. SO why would you EVER try and retain FACTORY handling. FFS my absolute stocker tow rig rides like a bag of snot offroad! and you reckon thats how a COMP truck should go?

sorry to the other guys on here about the rant! as you can understand i am passionate about this stuff, and am very willing to help anyone out with ideas or setups. I help design this stuff cus' i want these trucks to evolve, i don't just guess at it, there is a lot of time spent drawing and measuring and calculating, to try and get an ACCEPTABLE outcome. I don't get paid for it (but free beer is always welcome)

[KIWI]

With the long arm kit, is it the fact the lower arms are longer, they are mounted further foward, or both, that makes the rear flex better?
Reason I ask is, I want to build up another truck so I don't wreck the GU, but am struggling to find a well priced lwb over here.
If I extend a swb (arms etc, not chassis) will I gain the same benefits, as I will be using longer lower arms?

Cheers,
Dave

[uzdnabuzd]

What about radflo smooties for outback/winch challenge truck. Apparently you can get them that bolt straigtht in??

Are they any good? do they rate against the foxes and kings?

Cheers

Zac

[ACF]

A few points to be noted here are that my sugestions are based of the fact that 95% of winch challenge cars in vic try to maintain factory suspension geometry for handling and stability because it works, also alot of guys are installing custom sway bars to reduce body roll.

If you noticed on previous page the 2 cars on the same part of the track, where they are fully flexed, note the red ute did have all its wheels on the ground but leaned over considerably more than the white ute. The white ute, on the other hand.... yes it lifted a wheel but still drivable and thats what diff locks are for.
As for a basic cheaper comp truck nothing is worse than your 100K car being beaten by a 30K car, it all comes down to driver ability that gets you on the podium. As was the case in engel rd 4 were huddy drove his production class carby gq with no mods to the original suspension, only 3" coils and bolt in shocks, he drove his way to outright 3rd over all.
If someone is asking for advice on a forum or around the camp fire thats becuase they dont have 100K to spend on a comp car or they would pay some one for advice.
10 and 12 inches of wheel travel seems to be enough but not to much to either destroy bushes constantly or drasticly change the handling of a car.
As we all know people have different opions and no one is right or wrong at the end of the day just different veiws.

[chunderlicious]

A few points to be noted here are that my sugestions are based of the fact that 95% of winch challenge cars in vic try to maintain factory suspension geometry for handling and stability because it works, also alot of guys are installing custom sway bars to reduce body roll.

If you noticed on previous page the 2 cars on the same part of the track, where they are fully flexed, note the red ute did have all its wheels on the ground but leaned over considerably more than the white ute. The white ute, on the other hand.... yes it lifted a wheel but still drivable and thats what diff locks are for.

to be a stickler and nothing more, the red ute is actually on a different line and has the front alot higher up on the left. neither cars run sway bars too.

[nzdarin]

With the long arm kit, is it the fact the lower arms are longer, they are mounted further foward, or both, that makes the rear flex better?
Reason I ask is, I want to build up another truck so I don't wreck the GU, but am struggling to find a well priced lwb over here.
If I extend a swb (arms etc, not chassis) will I gain the same benefits, as I will be using longer lower arms?

Cheers,
Dave

I have a SWB that I have fitted long arms to to extend wheelbase and also get better handling.
When you lengthen the arms then the angles they are on are less when compared to the same lift on a truck with standard arms. Lower angles and less angle change gives better handling. My truck has too much squat which is the complete opposite to what would normally happen to lifted GQ. So I'm working out what to do to get a more neutral effect but still retain some squat as that is an advantage to how I drive.
So the way I've done it gives two advantages, long wheelbase (104.5) and also better suspesion geometry. Like the 'Mad one' has stated, it isn't guess work or trial and error, it is about deciding what you want to achieve and then modifying accordingly. Copying someone elses truck maybe the worst thing you do, or the best!

[SuperiorEngineering]

A few points to be noted here are that my sugestions are based of the fact that 95% of winch challenge cars in vic try to maintain factory suspension geometry for handling and stability because it works, also alot of guys are installing custom sway bars to reduce body roll.

If you noticed on previous page the 2 cars on the same part of the track, where they are fully flexed, note the red ute did have all its wheels on the ground but leaned over considerably more than the white ute. The white ute, on the other hand.... yes it lifted a wheel but still drivable and thats what diff locks are for.

to be a stickler and nothing more, the red ute is actually on a different line and has the front alot higher up on the left. neither cars run sway bars too.

Just to add/clarify this a bit more , Both trucks were built by us for 2 different purposes, the red truck is my "rock crawling, General purpose comp truck" Phills White GU is a daily driven 4x4.
The red truck uses Super Flex arms 18mm front coils and 18mm rear coils, Air shocks in the rear with 0 psi pressure in them and low in oil on that day so F***all rear shock absorbing happening,
The White GU fitted with our Superior Super Flex Radius arm 5 inch kit designed to be able to compete with and still drive home with , as well as being daily driving truck., the front coils 19mm and the rear 20mm.
Both trucks locked.
This is why the red GQ has more body roll because we designed it to be softer than a daily driver as the white GU is multi purpose .
At the end of the day both these trucks will outdrive a drop radius arm front 4x4.
Lockers or not a wheel in the air means that wheel its not making a contribution to forward momentum!

[killalux]

am starting to slowly build a winch truck swb patrol so far i am going make it a ute wheelbase extension etc but was wondering what is the best suspension setup any help and pics appreciated

It seems this post has gone completely of track from the original question

Price for any suspension set up depends on what you want to achieve.
As far as WINCH CHALLENGE vehicles are concerned the suspension setup for your mid wheel base should be something as follows.............

Spring lift no more than 4"
Shocks no longer than 10" front, 12" rear
Modified bump stops
Front radius arm setup as factory
Rear 5 link as factory

Quality bolt on shocks are fine, can upgrade to .........dual shocks, smoothies, bypass.......At your expence

Coil overs are great but same deal no bigger than 10" / 12"

Anything that keeps your car low and stable is a positive
Anything that lifts your car and creates uneeded excess wheel travel is a negative


Note Nissan spent millions to design these cars and they do work well with some strengthening to some components

I beleive what 1mad is saying is relevant. Winch challenge series these days are evolving to stages that have long, very high speed sections, and then tight or steep winch sections. Cliffhanger is a great example of this.

1mad i beleive is saying that the 18" travel shocks/ coilovers are not there for huge flex, But more so for alot of up and down movement, So that the truck can be launched 3ft in the air and not bottom out and bend diffs when it lands. (like a stadium truck)

The fact is that alot of the top-runner winch trucks are built with huge budgets. ie, The truck that one cliffhanger this year has close to $20g is suspension alone

[RMP&O]

are these shocks going to be affordable by the general public

are you's going to to develop a kit like the ATS 4x4 triple bypass kit?

the boys at LOCKTUP4x4 are organising mine and are ridiculously cheap. 4wdbits in nz do them as well.
http://www.4wdbits.co.nz/ProductsList.a ... lection=18

probably around $500ish for a 2.5" x 14"travel remote res which is nearly half what some guys are charging. (eg 2.0" x 14" fox from wizard =$745+)

eg 2.5"x4" air bumps from wizard = $465
2.5"x 4" FOAs from 4wdbits or locktup =~<$300

wow that is really expensive for the Fox. We can get those all day long here in the USA for $250-350 a shock. I would expect them to be more $$$ in Aus but not more than double our price!

[ludacris]

I would double check the prices of stuff from wizard. You may pay $745 for a remote resoirvoir coil over.

As for a winch challenge truck suspension set up. Start of with a 4 inch lift, brace your lower arms and get a pair of front drop radius arms.

Getting a good winch is far more important than coil overs especially if you are getting into the game for the first time.

Start competing then workout what mods are more important to suit you.

There are plenty of winning trucks that have standard suspension.

Evolve your truck slowly and enjoy the sport.

LudaCris

[mickyd555]

I would double check the prices of stuff from wizard. You may pay $745 for a remote resoirvoir coil over.

The price i posted was for a non-coil remote res shock, but you would still need to check with Brent. I was only going off what he had them advertised in dirtcomp/4wd monthly mag (cant remember which one).

[mickyd555]

I would double check the prices of stuff from wizard. You may pay $745 for a remote resoirvoir coil over.

The price i posted was for a non-coil remote res shock, but you would still need to check with Brent. I was only going off what he had them advertised in dirtcomp/4wd monthly mag (cant remember which one).

I found the add.

front shocks including replacement tower $999
rear shocks $849

its in edition 13 of dirt comp so i dont know if the prices are still valid??

[ludacris]

Sorry Micky. I was not having a go. I did pay a lot less than that from wizard for my fox remote resoivoirs and bump stops.

LudaCris

[1MadEngineer]

I beleive what 1mad is saying is relevant. Winch challenge series these days are evolving to stages that have long, very high speed sections, and then tight or steep winch sections. Cliffhanger is a great example of this.

1mad i beleive is saying that the 18" travel shocks/ coilovers are not there for huge flex, But more so for alot of up and down movement, So that the truck can be launched 3ft in the air and not bottom out and bend diffs when it lands. (like a stadium truck)

The fact is that alot of the top-runner winch trucks are built with huge budgets. ie, The truck that one cliffhanger this year has close to $20g is suspension alone

spot on mate! its more for compression and rebound.
The TOP vic trucks are fricken awesome and are built much like a US jeepspeed offroad racer, but i do know you will see a few new rigs show up with very similar setup to what i have suggested (hint - these are a few of the current top guys).

[1MadEngineer]

I would double check the prices of stuff from wizard. You may pay $745 for a remote resoirvoir coil over.

As for a winch challenge truck suspension set up. Start of with a 4 inch lift, brace your lower arms and get a pair of front drop radius arms.

Getting a good winch is far more important than coil overs especially if you are getting into the game for the first time.

Start competing then workout what mods are more important to suit you.

There are plenty of winning trucks that have standard suspension.

Evolve your truck slowly and enjoy the sport.

LudaCris

I used to think it was ALL in the winch, but after seeing how much a rig like Robbie Marshals can dominate, i have changed my mind. He runs a STOCK highmount, BUT he has a rig that absolutely hauls butt and handles VERY well.... it just puts down the power soooo much better than most, which IMO is a big factor in his success.



sorry if the prices are a bit wrong ATM but i got them that day straight of the applicable websites.

[mickyd555]

Sorry Micky. I was not having a go. I did pay a lot less than that from wizard for my fox remote resoivoirs and bump stops.

LudaCris

no worries Chris, i just wanted to clear it up as i think we have jumped from coil-over to non-coil a few times in this thread

[pigletracing]

hey you have gotta luv the picks of the red gq showing its flex on the ramp,, (I didnt bother to read the small print) But did notice in the ramp shots there were no shocks on it to limit its travle, but there were big silver ones on for the hill climb......
I dont know what Laurrie Sternback is doing wrong with his winch truck !!!!
he has the old fasioned coil & shock setup in the front, & has even older technolagy of coils over leaf pack in the rear !!!!!
& is still at the pointy end of the field each event...
basicly Just enjoy it keep it as low as possible, cut your guards for up travle,,, & have shiteloads of fun..

[ludacris]

I would double check the prices of stuff from wizard. You may pay $745 for a remote resoirvoir coil over.

As for a winch challenge truck suspension set up. Start of with a 4 inch lift, brace your lower arms and get a pair of front drop radius arms.

Getting a good winch is far more important than coil overs especially if you are getting into the game for the first time.

Start competing then workout what mods are more important to suit you.

There are plenty of winning trucks that have standard suspension.

Evolve your truck slowly and enjoy the sport.

LudaCris

I used to think it was ALL in the winch, but after seeing how much a rig like Robbie Marshals can dominate, i have changed my mind. He runs a STOCK highmount, BUT he has a rig that absolutely hauls butt and handles VERY well.... it just puts down the power soooo much better than most, which IMO is a big factor in his success.



sorry if the prices are a bit wrong ATM but i got them that day straight of the applicable websites.

[pigletracing]

I think you will find that the big factor in rob marshals success is robs
BALLS & ALL DRIVING SKILLS !!! if you put him in the production class, in a stock GQ like every one else,, he 'd still be at the pointy end of the field....

[1MadEngineer]

I think you will find that the big factor in rob marshals success is robs
BALLS & ALL DRIVING SKILLS !!! if you put him in the production class, in a stock GQ like every one else,, he 'd still be at the pointy end of the field....

Yep, robbie is fricken good behind the wheel. I am helping him go engine shopping ATM and everyone thought his last truck had power! this thing will be evil......

[gqpete]

I think you will find that the big factor in rob marshals success is robs
BALLS & ALL DRIVING SKILLS !!! if you put him in the production class, in a stock GQ like every one else,, he 'd still be at the pointy end of the field....

Yep, robbie is fricken good behind the wheel. I am helping him go engine shopping ATM and everyone thought his last truck had power! this thing will be evil......

sometimes slower is faster

[LOCKEE]

I think you will find that the big factor in rob marshals success is robs
BALLS & ALL DRIVING SKILLS !!! if you put him in the production class, in a stock GQ like every one else,, he 'd still be at the pointy end of the field....

Yep, robbie is fricken good behind the wheel. I am helping him go engine shopping ATM and everyone thought his last truck had power! this thing will be evil......

sometimes slower is faster

Pete,

having been competitive in the more basic longy then the all out MWB, what you suggest to start with?

Lockee

[gqpete]

try the sandy bowman school of driving.
the amount of times my high powered mwb has only been a second or two infront,or if not , been beaten by his carbie with 12v winch.

[ludacris]

I think you will find that the big factor in rob marshals success is robs
BALLS & ALL DRIVING SKILLS !!! if you put him in the production class, in a stock GQ like every one else,, he 'd still be at the pointy end of the field....

You are spot on there Piglet.

And his winch is not STOCK.

LudaCris

[chunderlicious]

the point greg was making was that robbies winch still only has 1 6hp 24v motor.... not 2 motors and gears and stuff