ONE MAKE BUGGY CLASS.

[robbie]

sounds cool .. good luck sam..

[derangedrover]

These are the specs so far.

SUZUKI 1.3 ENGINE
ZOOK 5 SPEED
ZOOK TRANSFER
HYDRO OR POWER STEER.
MUST HAVE 2 SEATS.
HILUX DIFFS FRONT AND REAR
REAR HILUX SPRINGS FRONT AND REAR
LIMIT 35 INCH TYRES.
95 INCH WHEELBASE
HARNESSES
BRAKE LIGHT
HEADLIGHTS


Things that are open.

ANTI WRAP BARS
LOCKERS
DIFF RATIOS
TRANSFER RATIOS
TYRE WIDTH
RIM SIZE
SPRING HEIGHT,RATE AND BRAND.
WHEEL TRACK


I will add to these specs as we get furthe down the track.
SAM

are engine specifications open? ie cams/heads/compression/displacement etc or is it to be stock? how will you ensure this, HQ racing 'sealed engine' style? efi/lpg allowed? forced induction?

no auto option?

does this mean an individual could build any style chassis they want from any material? weight open? ie can the guy with dollars build a moly / ally / titanium frame with carbon wheels etc that weighs 500kg and dominate?

35" measured or sidewall for tyres

what are the safety requiements going to be in terms of vehicle and drivers? are you going to adopt some sort of existing codes?

when you say hilux diffs, does that mean disk to disk hilux, or since track is open can you run rangie housings stuffed with lux bits?

spring over or under /other, open to builders choice? if anti wrap is open can you run any sort of links you like as long as the spring used is a rear hilux item?

engine/driveline location? front/rear/mid

seating config? side by side, tandem? position of crew? ie forward/middle/rear?

how can a potential builder make an initial choice with gearing without knowing what the driving conditions are likely? same for lighting. are there going to be night stages where you really need to see or can you have an 'ornamental' set of lights that emit a dim glow?

mandatory recovery points?

winch open?

fuel capacity and storage type? will it need to be an approved cell or will homebuilt suffice? thinking rollover safety etc.

interested and trying to be helpful, not knocking.

Cheers
Daryl

[SAWZALL]

The series will be using a control chassis thereby ensuring (relative) equality

I'd say most of the mods you've mentioned (if not banned) would not be welcomed

[MY45]

It sounds like its all coming together nicely sam I would also be keen to have a look at what you build......when will you have the first prototype done ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also will you be bale to run:
Wheel spacers/wide track kits?
Seperate Brakes for each wheel?

[N*A*M]

have you all read the formula suzuki discussion in the suzuki section? a lot of good points were raised in there about formula competitions in general.

[OVERKILL ENG]

These are the specs so far.

SUZUKI 1.3 ENGINE
ZOOK 5 SPEED
ZOOK TRANSFER
HYDRO OR POWER STEER.
MUST HAVE 2 SEATS.
HILUX DIFFS FRONT AND REAR
REAR HILUX SPRINGS FRONT AND REAR
LIMIT 35 INCH TYRES.
95 INCH WHEELBASE
HARNESSES
BRAKE LIGHT
HEADLIGHTS


Things that are open.

ANTI WRAP BARS
LOCKERS
DIFF RATIOS
TRANSFER RATIOS
TYRE WIDTH
RIM SIZE
SPRING HEIGHT,RATE AND BRAND.
WHEEL TRACK


I will add to these specs as we get furthe down the track.
SAM

are engine specifications open? ie cams/heads/compression/displacement etc or is it to be stock? how will you ensure this, HQ racing 'sealed engine' style? efi/lpg allowed? forced induction?

no auto option?

does this mean an individual could build any style chassis they want from any material? weight open? ie can the guy with dollars build a moly / ally / titanium frame with carbon wheels etc that weighs 500kg and dominate?

35" measured or sidewall for tyres

what are the safety requiements going to be in terms of vehicle and drivers? are you going to adopt some sort of existing codes?

when you say hilux diffs, does that mean disk to disk hilux, or since track is open can you run rangie housings stuffed with lux bits?

spring over or under /other, open to builders choice? if anti wrap is open can you run any sort of links you like as long as the spring used is a rear hilux item?

engine/driveline location? front/rear/mid

seating config? side by side, tandem? position of crew? ie forward/middle/rear?

how can a potential builder make an initial choice with gearing without knowing what the driving conditions are likely? same for lighting. are there going to be night stages where you really need to see or can you have an 'ornamental' set of lights that emit a dim glow?

mandatory recovery points?

winch open?

fuel capacity and storage type? will it need to be an approved cell or will homebuilt suffice? thinking rollover safety etc.

interested and trying to be helpful, not knocking.

Cheers
Daryl

You have come up with some good questions.
The diffs have to be Hilux disc to disc.
Winch is open
seating is side by side The chassis will be a standard setup so everything will already have all the mounts there and it will just be a matter of bolting bits in.
They will alll have to have safety and recovery points and equipement on board.

Hopefully withint the next 2-3 weeks will have the first chassis for all to see.
SAM

[CHOOFA]

I think it would be not very good because people go to see diffrent vehicles, not the same ones driven buy diffrent people,an most people get the sadisfaction of building there own not having one with someone elses ideas.

[BeZeRK]

so ummm, hows this all going???

any progress yet?

[N*A*M]

the only problem i see is the overly business centric approach that has been taken here. there are people with a lot to gain, and although there is nothing wrong with this; you may find people may be reluctant to commit to handing $$$ to a small handful of companies. the specs would be influenced by those making the equipment. there is not enough independence. where are these events going to be held? who will run them? the same people that make the equipment?

[OVERKILL ENG]

the only problem i see is the overly business centric approach that has been taken here. there are people with a lot to gain, and although there is nothing wrong with this; you may find people may be reluctant to commit to handing $$$ to a small handful of companies. the specs would be influenced by those making the equipment. there is not enough independence. where are these events going to be held? who will run them? the same people that make the equipment?

I guess NAM that if I am the one putting all the effort and work to get this type of class up and running then obviously I am going to want to get something back. The only thing that will be supplier orientated will be the cghassis the rest can be sourced from anywhere they choose.Unless the sponsors want exclusive rights to certain parts.
SAM

[derangedrover]

Sam,

Are you saying that to be eligible to compete an individual will have to buy your chassis, not just meet a set of rules and be able to build their own?

Cheers
Daryl

[N*A*M]

seriously, i wish the best of luck to you. but i think australia is not quite ready for this yet. even the formula suzuki concept seems flawed. and that was with factory chassis and full bodied. i certainly hope you get your pricing strategy spot on because that's going to make a big difference. you may find that you have to accept a big loss with huge outlays in the beginning. sell the chassis really cheap to get wide acceptance to start with.

sam, why not take the formula suzuki baton and run with that? there is plenty of valuable input you could make. how about a standardised rollcage and tube clip. if you believe hilux diffs are required, change the specs to suit. but i think we're all trying to run before we can walk.

[Midget]

Sam
I think it would cool,try and get more people involved in the sport..
If you need someone to help fabricate these things,i'll be there...

Jamie

[OVERKILL ENG]

seriously, i wish the best of luck to you. but i think australia is not quite ready for this yet. even the formula suzuki concept seems flawed. and that was with factory chassis and full bodied. i certainly hope you get your pricing strategy spot on because that's going to make a big difference. you may find that you have to accept a big loss with huge outlays in the beginning. sell the chassis really cheap to get wide acceptance to start with.

sam, why not take the formula suzuki baton and run with that? there is plenty of valuable input you could make. how about a standardised rollcage and tube clip. if you believe hilux diffs are required, change the specs to suit. but i think we're all trying to run before we can walk.

I agree with you in point NAM but i think the Formula Zook class will limit the people as not all people like Zooks and it will only take a few roll overs and then you are up for a new body nd expense.To get any new class up and running is going to take a shait loads of effort and time. At the moment there will be 2 shops Fabricating the chassis to my specs I would like to eventually have a shop in each state that was able to fabricate them.
SAM

[N*A*M]

well i wait with eager anticipation to see what comes of this

remember... don't price out the grommits like me

[DeWsE]

Hey Overkill, Hows this going any updates like pics.

My opinion is that this is as good as time as any to make this class...
You gotta remember that every club or comp has to start somewhere. I don't think anyone has ever started a club and within the first month had hundreds of members. Maybe you only sell 4-5 buggies to start with but i reckon the ppl who buy them is because they love driving and not because their competitive. Once they do the ground work and get things organised I can bet other ppl will see how good it is and want in!

Remember: It may not happen over night but it will happen.
Also it will mean you really have done what you set out to do, and that is help the sport grow.

Matt

[XTREME MMM]

Sam, All the best. As you know I run the XRCC events, here are a few things that I have seen in this forum.

You stated that as you are putting time into setting this up, that you want something back, smart move. But I think for this to work & be affordable you must give out ALL THE SPECS & let people build there own. It appears, the way you want to set it up at the moment is "if you do not buy the frame of ME you cannot enter MY event"!!!!!!!!!!!
Even with all the new safety requirements that I have in my events, I have not sold or benifited ($ wise) out of this. What I got out of it was seeing a vehicle which has competitors in, a lot safer for them!!!

As for a cheap entry sport, Mate I only paid $13k for my road vehicle how the hell could I afford $15k+ for a toy, that I was not allowed to build. NOT ON JANE!!!!!!!

If I was going to build up a comp vehicle (XRCC style event) I would go to a Hilux or Rangie (even being a Nissan Man) which I would be able to compete in XRCC "Outlaw Class" for under $10k & still have a heap over to compete for the year.


It is also good that we may have someone else down South going to do more events (XRCC, TUFF TRUCK Style), but I think to make this grow more it would be good to run open type events, as the spectators want to see big tyres & some noise as well as good driving. It was good at the last event to see different vehicles, not the same one all the time.

When I started XRCC it was in my mind that in a very short time that the "OUTLAW" vehicles would start to change to tube buggies (even I did not try to build or sell them), it is happening already. GREAT. When this sport starts having to knock back entries it may then be time to run SPECIAL CLASSES. But these special classes must have rules so EVERY ONE CAN BUILD THERE OWN or buy of some one else if they do not have the gear to build.

Regards David (MMM)

[OVERKILL ENG]

Sam, All the best. As you know I run the XRCC events, here are a few things that I have seen in this forum.

You stated that as you are putting time into setting this up, that you want something back, smart move. But I think for this to work & be affordable you must give out ALL THE SPECS & let people build there own. It appears, the way you want to set it up at the moment is "if you do not buy the frame of ME you cannot enter MY event"!!!!!!!!!!!
Even with all the new safety requirements that I have in my events, I have not sold or benifited ($ wise) out of this. What I got out of it was seeing a vehicle which has competitors in, a lot safer for them!!!

As for a cheap entry sport, Mate I only paid $13k for my road vehicle how the hell could I afford $15k+ for a toy, that I was not allowed to build. NOT ON JANE!!!!!!!

If I was going to build up a comp vehicle (XRCC style event) I would go to a Hilux or Rangie (even being a Nissan Man) which I would be able to compete in XRCC "Outlaw Class" for under $10k & still have a heap over to compete for the year.


It is also good that we may have someone else down South going to do more events (XRCC, TUFF TRUCK Style), but I think to make this grow more it would be good to run open type events, as the spectators want to see big tyres & some noise as well as good driving. It was good at the last event to see different vehicles, not the same one all the time.

When I started XRCC it was in my mind that in a very short time that the "OUTLAW" vehicles would start to change to tube buggies (even I did not try to build or sell them), it is happening already. GREAT. When this sport starts having to knock back entries it may then be time to run SPECIAL CLASSES. But these special classes must have rules so EVERY ONE CAN BUILD THERE OWN or buy of some one else if they do not have the gear to build.

Regards David (MMM)

Dave I thank you for your input but I think you are missing the point of the class. The class is supposed to be a cheap way for people to get into a competitve class. As we all know any form of motorsport has it's expenses.$15 k for a class winning buggy on a trailer I would say is quite good.
Sure you could enter a Hilux or Rangie in XRCC that you have built for less than $10k but you have no chance of winning.
The only reason I wanted to keep the chassis a one make chassis, it would be easy to govern the mods available and keep an even playing field.
The buggies with as little mods as bigger tyres will be more than competitive enough to enter any OUTLAW class events and even XRCC.
I will be entering one of these buggies in the other two rounds of your series and if all goes well there will be more than 2.
I am not trying to monopolise the sport at all It is just my idea of trying to get more people out there competing.
We are getting the chassis drawn up now so another option may be to put it up on the web for people to download and build there own.
SAM

[N*A*M]

no offence to dave, but maybe you did miss the point. this comp is mainly geared towards builders, drivers and spotters - not spectators. even if it isn't a big commercial success unlike the xtreme competitions, i think it will be a breakthrough in our sport and open many doors for the future. the rigs people build will allow them to compete in other events (and defeat modified hiluxes and rangies). sam's hard work will see its success, just as your hardwork has seen the success of the xtreme competitions.

[XTREME MMM]

Back again, My main point is not against the Class or event it is saying "THAT YOU MUST BUY ONE OF MY FRAMES TO COMPETE". It appears that you are trying to corner the market, which is not in the best interest of the sport!!!!

If you are planning to run a class make it open to every one by having a set of rules & or planes for the competitors who want to run in that Class, this will give every one the chance TO BUILD THEIR OWN COMPETITIVE BUGGY or buy of some one else who is geared up to build them.

Also as some others have said on this forum "The more rules you have got, the more ways there are to get around them" quite true, if you look at the vehicle specs for the XWC you will find they are getting more user friendly each year, the biggest item in vehicle specs sre the safety requirements, there is no short cuts in this area.

Above all done think that I am against this class, all I would like to see is that every one has the chance to build their own buggy from the ground up.

Regards David (MMM)

[Strange Rover]

Sure you could enter a Hilux or Rangie in XRCC that you have built for less than $10k but you have no chance of winning.

A rangerover has won every XRCC so far (the mogrover is still a range rover if you look at the rego papers) and I would have less than 10K in the Lockless easily which is a Range Rover in a tube chassis.

And Tonys Hilux probably have one the last XRCC if it hadnt crapped a transfer input shaft on the 3rd stage. We were in front by more than 20 points after the first day IIRC and about 30points in front of the lockless which eventually won the event. You could build Tonys hilux for 10K although I think it cost him more than that.

As always its not what you buy that counts - its what you can build. Which I think is MMMs point.

Would still love to see this one make class happen. It would have a lot of appeal to a lot of people. Hardest part will be finding people that have a lazy 15K that they can drop into this motor sport. Im sure these people exist although with the low profile of this style of motor sport they wont be easy to find.

Sam

[Dozoor]

Im begining to like it, SamK

Lot a guys on here might not relise how cheap this sort of running gear can be had for , The formentioned 1.3 setup run with lux diffs make a extra reliable little buggy,

shit apart from the frame, tires. I would say i could fill it with running gear for and new seats harness's for around $3000 thats with a sierres 1.

Be light enough to tow on a single axle trailer even,
Beats having a half bake sitting around .


Personly They can put all the bucks they want into the 1.3 but it'll only make the stocker 1.3 a step ahead !


Hope to see the outcome for the chass , ( I hate rego, engineers, blue slip, pink slips, xrays, adrs ,rahrahrah)
Larry.

[Fieldsy]

How about you make the frame so that different motors can be installed but they must use the same gear box? And govern it say up to 2.l petrol. That way you still have the different makes and let’s face it your motor is not going to make a huge difference to the buggy’s crawling ability so you still have a level playing field. Also ppl could use a motor they have laying around thus keeping cost down.

As for not having a 4wd that’s not registered, I for one would like this. If I don’t need it on Monday I will go a lot harder on Sunday. And no roadworthy hassles.

As for the spectators not wanting to watch the same car doing the same course. I think that human nature will take care of that. I recon that 90% of drivers would go out of their way to make their buggy look different to everyone else’s.

[Midget]

I agree with fieldsy with the spectators watching the same type of buggy go around the course,I for one would pick some pretty wild lines,just so the crowd could see some some silly shiate and get a laugh...

Jamie

[bj on roids]

DO IT!!!

Hey Sam Keck, just start it off man!! I think its a rockin idea!

Once it gets going, then you can modify the rules and adapt them as necessary!

[gadget]

Sounds like a great idea to me - if it will get more people into the comp scene, and bring it a lot closer to driver ability not $$'s

[Fieldsy]

what's going on with this? or has it moved????

[OVERKILL ENG]

The plans are beeing drawn up as we speak.
SAM

[Fieldsy]

Very Very cool!!! even if the one make class was not to get off the ground how good would it be to be able to buy an off the shelf buggy for comp use.

anyone wana buy a yellow 75 fj40?

[DeWsE]

Well guys I gotta say one thing...I think I have been on this board for to long..it's been a year sence this thread and I was just thinking about it today.....

Anyway it looks like the comp scene has really picked up over the last year and alot more buggies are getting built. I think as this is happening it's becoming more realistic to start something like this. In WA we are all shying away from regerstered rigs because of the legal problems. I think this is making the sport alot safer because we arn't on the road and will help take some of the negitivity being felt by 4wders in the city.

Anyway I know that Sam still has been thinking about this so I reckon we try help him get this started...maybe just a reminder that ppl are still interested.

Here is a link from pirate which is about the same sorta thing

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... 255&page=1

My only concern Sam is that if you limit it to your chassis only this will kill the comp, as I know you don't have the time to build ten, to just get it started.

I think if you put the hard yards in and get it started your company will yeild alot of the rewards anyway. I reckon between the work you do now and the chassis you will get orders for you will be busy.

my 2c