Are Bigger tires genuinely better

[muddyperils]

How can people be so ignorant to simple physics, If a vehicle is more capable it simply won,t do the damage in the same place, Looking at this
conversation the piont these people are trying to make is hypocritical to there own belief,s , if they believe in what they are trying to piont out they should be driving vehicles with one wheel drive and scooter tires.

And now for the clincher , 95% of the vehicles fitted with larger then 35" tires , Only get used on tracks a minority of the time, Its the lets go wheeling every weekend people in touring type things that are the majority of traffic on the trails.
Just open your eyes , it may be dark and smelly where your head is but you will be looking at the problem .

I was saying the wheel ruts are much deeper than the ORDINARY "lets go wheelin every weekend peoples" vehicles can even think about tackling, so go back to ya cave and think some more about the rubbish ya dribble

[Dozoor]

How can people be so ignorant to simple physics, If a vehicle is more capable it simply won,t do the damage in the same place, Looking at this
conversation the piont these people are trying to make is hypocritical to there own belief,s , if they believe in what they are trying to piont out they should be driving vehicles with one wheel drive and scooter tires.

And now for the clincher , 95% of the vehicles fitted with larger then 35" tires , Only get used on tracks a minority of the time, Its the lets go wheeling every weekend people in touring type things that are the majority of traffic on the trails.
Just open your eyes , it may be dark and smelly where your head is but you will be looking at the problem .

I was saying the wheel ruts are much deeper than the ORDINARY "lets go wheelin every weekend peoples" vehicles can even think about tackling, so go back to ya cave and think some more about the rubbish ya dribble

This wasn,t aimed at anybody in perticular , Just the attitude that People have that modified vehicles do more damage then unmodified ,
A fool burried axle deep sitting there trying to rock his car out for ten minutes will do infinately more damage then one driving directly thru . Traction distributed thru all wheels and a larger footprint = less damage no matter what the conditions wet or dry .

Of the 20 or so people that have posted in this thread you think your standing out enough for me to address you personally hmm.

[muddyperils]

I must appolagise for being a little abrupt, I didn't mean you did single me out, but that was a bad bad day, sorry, and you would be surprised how many vehicles get out of a weekend with 37's specially in the wet, thats where damage is done...

[74cj6]

I have only read the first six or eight posts on this thread as they all seemed to be saying the same thing, but I have to say since we have had four lots of extreemely heavy rain in southern QLD the tracks are suffering badly from errosion so I feel the question has to be asked whether or not tyre size is the only major factor in errosion.

There is this big gully in the USA. some people might have heard of it its called the grand canyon. I really dont think that tyre sizes of the 4wds in the USA caused that.

Just last week at ormeau I had a crack at a track I passed over three months ago in my CJ with 33's AT's.. this time I had trouble with my 35 boggers. The only real thing that has been worse out there lately is the weather. The rain has eroded out the track . The reason I can say this is because the lines the erosion runs arent driveable lines so it must have been the rain.

At the end of the day errosion makes tracks worse . Bigger tyres are needed to drive those tracks . If you dont like it dont drive the tracks.

[J Top]

Hooray 74cj6
Finally someone has posted about the real culprit.
J Top

[cookiemonster]

I agree. A friend and i went out to Toolangi after the heavy rains in Melbourne recently. I was on 33 simex's and he was on 35. We both drive Bundys which are relativly light. Both have horsepower upgrades. We were the first people in after the rain on all the tracks that we drove. Was a hard core day! Didn,t need to winch once, althougt some of the sections had to be driven quite quick! The tracks that we drove had obvious signs of damage from water running down them....not from tyres! Having said that, as we all have experienced (atleast in wet muddy VIC) getting to a track that a convoy of ten has just been through, and turned back because it was too chopped up, it would seem that increased traffic would be the culprate. I don`t think that big tyres destroy the tracks, I think that it is a combination of traffic and weather.

Ever noticed how popular 4Wdriving has become in recent years! It's time for the sport to become alittle more professional! An idea that I've had floating around for a while; When I go snowboarding, the trails are rated, when I go mountian biking the trails are rated! When I ride (although not for a long time) motor cross, the tracks are rated! If you are in some kind of a race, team sport, at school or whatever, you will be grouped with people of a similar ability! Why not 4wd. If each track had some type of a rating system, i.e. level one std 4wd with good tyres......level 2 higher driver skill and self recovery equipment, etc until say level 5 large aggressive tyres, high level of driver skill, increased suspension travel etc. Most tracks have gates, or are sign posted, the rating and a decription could be attached to that! Further more when tracks are too far gone for even level 5 they can be closed and graded back to level 1. This would give people an indication of where to drive, make public liability less of a problem, and stop people from forming chicken runs because the trail is too tough for their rig, lessening the enviromential impact.

It's about time! Maybe clubs could adopt their local area and implement this!

[cookiemonster]

Oh and bigger tryes are better when the trails are toughter! But nothing will beat driver ability!

[Nev62]

Ever noticed how popular 4Wdriving has become in recent years! It's time for the sport to become alittle more professional! An idea that I've had floating around for a while; When I go snowboarding, the trails are rated, when I go mountian biking the trails are rated! When I ride (although not for a long time) motor cross, the tracks are rated! If you are in some kind of a race, team sport, at school or whatever, you will be grouped with people of a similar ability! Why not 4wd. If each track had some type of a rating system, i.e. level one std 4wd with good tyres......level 2 higher driver skill and self recovery equipment, etc until say level 5 large aggressive tyres, high level of driver skill, increased suspension travel etc. Most tracks have gates, or are sign posted, the rating and a decription could be attached to that! Further more when tracks are too far gone for even level 5 they can be closed and graded back to level 1.

Many clubs and associations already do this. Grade 1 = Tar Grade 5 = experianced driver and high mods to 4b.

[Muddy999]

Good read, perhaps this might be considered though.

There is a road not far from here that leads to a popular water skiing spot and camp ground. Every weekend over summer it is packed to the gunnels with people driving everything from Winebago's, through fourbies to falcodores with boats and caravans attached. The road into this location is dirt and would definitely fall into the 'back road' category. I drive it every day, over winter when no one camps, the local council grades it maybe once every three months or after a heavy rain. The majority of users at this time are tractors or farm machinery, generally with bigger tyres but at slower speeds. In summer however they have a grader levelling it almost monthly. The reason? Guys with heavily laden vehicles, running at road pressure at high speeds.

I guess the point I am trying to get at here is that higher traffic, inappropriate pressure, loads and speeds with tyres is probably going to do more damage than just the size of the tyre. The lack of maitenance by authorities scared of offending the sensibilities of the 'green voters' is also a big factor I believe. You only have to look at how hard it is for the bush fire brigades to maintain their access tracks and perform proper preventative control burns thanks to greens.

Though also having said that, how often do you hear blokes organising trips after a decent wet, because it is more fun/challenging? (Yep guilty here at times, so I am not casting any stones.)


Cheers,
Muddy.

[ToyTruck]

after reading the comments i was originally going to add my wanker comment

BIGGER TYRES ARE BETTER

but it did get me thinking so heres my opinion:
bigger tyres are better for all the reasons everyone else has mentioned ; traction , height of diffs , footprint when aired down etc etc
different vehicles come out from the factory with different tyre sizes so the size really isnt the issue. So what else can we blame .... engine size , nope sorry ... some 4wds have factory V8s too

erosion is a natural thing ... sure 4wds add to it.
i think that the real problem is that the popularity of 4wds has increased and at they same time track closure has increased. so all that is happening is more 4wds on the same track waiting in line to all attempt the same challenge or head to the same "secret location".
sure its easy to say close the track to stop more damage but that just makes it worse for the locations that are left.
when i first started 4wding , they only 4wds i saw out on tracks were the ones i went with .... but nowadays some spots need traffic lights.

government and volenteer groups have a lot to answer for.
the mundaring power lines track east of perth had some excellent and diverse terrain, easy tracks thru to a tank trap 10m long and 1m deep
and suprise they blocked of the more challenging sections .... WHY??
people either destroyed their barricade or drove off in discust to find another area.
with the popularity of 4wds the government should be looking at setting up offroad areas specifically for people to challenge their vehicles and their own driving abilitys. all they would need to do is put up a big sign saying "enter at own risk" ...liability problem solved.
most guys i know wouldnt even care if it was an hour or more from perth.

[bradley]

After a lifetime of driving standard size tyred vehicles, a jackaroo for the past 3 years on standard sized rubber, i finally gave up and went for some 'big guns' yeah 265/75 mtr's woo hoo... I just got sick of straddling too many ruts and needed a bit more height. Last time i looked all rigs had to be roadworthy, so how do you big rubber guys go with this ?

I understand that sometimes you cant stay out of the ruts because its way too slippery, but people who plough along in the ruts all day long when there is no need give me the shites, it just makes em worse.
Up in a favorite spot out of marysville last year i camped with friends for a week and drove a very long climb every day to head out touring, at the time i only had 245/70 693's but i know how to run the right pressures and drive accordingly, First time up no dramas at all not a rock spat out in anger etc, no damage (btw - my modded v6 isnt short on herbs if needed)
After a week of numbnuts in modded rigs going hell for leather up there at warp speeds and at night past campsites like idiots, this track was shagged, very loose and some shale sections totally destroyed, by nothing else but bad behaviour. I still managed to chooch up without spinning but it was a lot harder.

So i think this thread is very valid, at the least we all have to be totally concious of ongoing damage as we drive. And dont be shy of filling in the odd hole with some rocks etc, doesnt make you less of a man, it makes you a man who is able to come back and enjoy the area later on.

And is it really necessary to find a small bog hole and spend ages mashing back and forward through it to get the 'all over mud tan' and ending up with a dirty great hell hole ?

I think no matter what the vehicle , if we all behave well on public land we might get to keep it.

[Tiny]

After a lifetime of driving standard size tyred vehicles, a jackaroo for the past 3 years on standard sized rubber, i finally gave up and went for some 'big guns' yeah 265/75 mtr's woo hoo... I just got sick of straddling too many ruts and needed a bit more height. Last time i looked all rigs had to be roadworthy, so how do you big rubber guys go with this ?

I understand that sometimes you cant stay out of the ruts because its way too slippery, but people who plough along in the ruts all day long when there is no need give me the shites, it just makes em worse.
Up in a favorite spot out of marysville last year i camped with friends for a week and drove a very long climb every day to head out touring, at the time i only had 245/70 693's but i know how to run the right pressures and drive accordingly, First time up no dramas at all not a rock spat out in anger etc, no damage (btw - my modded v6 isnt short on herbs if needed)
After a week of numbnuts in modded rigs going hell for leather up there at warp speeds and at night past campsites like idiots, this track was shagged, very loose and some shale sections totally destroyed, by nothing else but bad behaviour. I still managed to chooch up without spinning but it was a lot harder.

So i think this thread is very valid, at the least we all have to be totally concious of ongoing damage as we drive. And dont be shy of filling in the odd hole with some rocks etc, doesnt make you less of a man, it makes you a man who is able to come back and enjoy the area later on.

And is it really necessary to find a small bog hole and spend ages mashing back and forward through it to get the 'all over mud tan' and ending up with a dirty great hell hole ?

I think no matter what the vehicle , if we all behave well on public land we might get to keep it.

agreed, and many big rigs can give us all a bad name.....I have the luxury of chossing to take a basicly bog stock GU on a nice touring trip or the big GQ for an exiting day in the big stuff, but which ever rig goes, spinning the wheels up is a no no for me and askes for more tracks to be closed....as far as legalities, my rig is fully engineerd for the mods and 35" tyres and insured as such

as for mud......why the hell do you want to get covered in mud just to go home and spend $20 at laser wash anyway......it doesn't acheive anything

[Busiboy]

In a nutshell,

wankers and heavy rain rut up tracks,

nothing more or less.

As for guys with big tyres driing in ruts, when 'we' bottom out in these ruts and get pulled though we are actually lowering the ruts. The reason I drive in the ruts is sometimes it is actually easier and safer than ending up crossed up in a spot you can't drive out of. I this was your point.

If not, yeah guys rutting out big ruts cause they are wankers, I am on the same page.

[bradley]

The reason I drive in the ruts is sometimes it is actually easier and safer than ending up crossed up in a spot you can't drive out of. I this was your point.

If not, yeah guys rutting out big ruts cause they are wankers, I am on the same page.

Hi busi, yep like i said , sometimes there is no other option but to use the ruts , which i do when needed, but ill be buggered if im going to be on autopilot sitting in them all the time.


Tiny, yep im with you, the more filth she's wearing the more it costs to clean up (come to think of it , that not only applies to 4x4s )

I'd like to be stuck with your 'choices' sounds nice.

[professor]

Blame the dozer drivers they started all this

Seriously it's the lack of maintenace and the increase of traffic and the fact that we have just been through a drought and now we are seeing that wet stuff (water) .

Remember no water no gullies

no water no hills no hills makes for boring 4wding

Tread lightly and respect what we have.

[GUJohnno]

Tread lightly and respect what we have.

Definately!

[markil]

Tread lightly and respect what we have.

Definately!

Yeah, i definately agree with this quote too. And i think if everyone done this, track erosion and the such could be minimised somewhat.

[muppet_man67]

everyone should just buy suzukis and be hardcore on 33"s. Tread lightly, you dont get em lighter then zooks.

[bogged]

larger tyres, lockers and more flexible suspension if driven sensibly will have less impact on the environment than small tyres, no lockers and a stiff suspension. larger tyres have less ground pressure, lockers stop wheel spin and a supple suspension allows the tyres to remain in contact giving ech wheel a similar amount of contact pressure.

When you start lifting wheels you are loading up other wheels causing them to spin tearing holes in the ground.

However if the larger tyred etc is driven irresponsibly in conditions like heavy rain or muddy tracks then the damage can be extensive.

Again it comes down to responsible use if we are to continue to enjoy our chosen form of activity

apparently Coldham thinks
"He believes that at the end of the day, it doesn't work out that big competition tyres are easier on the tracks as they get through easier because not all, but most people with those vehicles are the hoons of four wheel driving who don't tread lightly."
nice that hes on ourside..

[BowTieGQ]

Bored Bruce? Still, it's applicable to current times all the same.

[Slunnie]

larger tyres, lockers and more flexible suspension if driven sensibly will have less impact on the environment than small tyres, no lockers and a stiff suspension. larger tyres have less ground pressure, lockers stop wheel spin and a supple suspension allows the tyres to remain in contact giving ech wheel a similar amount of contact pressure.

When you start lifting wheels you are loading up other wheels causing them to spin tearing holes in the ground.

However if the larger tyred etc is driven irresponsibly in conditions like heavy rain or muddy tracks then the damage can be extensive.

Again it comes down to responsible use if we are to continue to enjoy our chosen form of activity

apparently Coldham thinks
"He believes that at the end of the day, it doesn't work out that big competition tyres are easier on the tracks as they get through easier because not all, but most people with those vehicles are the hoons of four wheel driving who don't tread lightly."
nice that hes on ourside..

Who is Coldham?

[bogged]

Who is Coldham?

President of 4wd Victoria
starts here
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthre ... post202732
personally reading on, I think its a kid bullshitting. School holidays etc.

[grazza]

"He believes that at the end of the day, it doesn't work out that big competition tyres are easier on the tracks as they get through easier because not all, but most people with those vehicles are the hoons of four wheel driving who don't tread lightly."

There is an obvious attraction to those who want the biggest, baddest, "toughest" fourby out there. For the same reason that some people want the lowest, or the "rice'est" or the "loudest"

This is why we have gone from 33" to 37"+ on essentially tourers. Esp in Vic and NSW which seem to allow this. And it will get bigger because of wankers who want to show off. Do you think they care about the tracks?

Look at the (unregulated) USA scene or locally at the latest 4WD Monthly DVD for a classic example (in this case, a rangie)

[Rainbow Warrior]

They close 60-80% of tracks and they have to expect the remaining ones to be worked harder.
I don't see a problem with hard sections of track as long as a good chicken track is maintained around it.
Nost greens have no idea how much actual bush there is and damage from 4x4's is peanuts compared to how much bush is destroyed for golf courses, footy fields, housing and shopping centres.

[Slunnie]

"He believes that at the end of the day, it doesn't work out that big competition tyres are easier on the tracks as they get through easier because not all, but most people with those vehicles are the hoons of four wheel driving who don't tread lightly."

There is an obvious attraction to those who want the biggest, baddest, "toughest" fourby out there. For the same reason that some people want the lowest, or the "rice'est" or the "loudest"

This is why we have gone from 33" to 37"+ on essentially tourers. Esp in Vic and NSW which seem to allow this. And it will get bigger because of wankers who want to show off. Do you think they care about the tracks?

Look at the (unregulated) USA scene or locally at the latest 4WD Monthly DVD for a classic example (in this case, a rangie)

Wow, now is that right!

[Slunnie]

They close 60-80% of tracks and they have to expect the remaining ones to be worked harder.
I don't see a problem with hard sections of track as long as a good chicken track is maintained around it.
Nost greens have no idea how much actual bush there is and damage from 4x4's is peanuts compared to how much bush is destroyed for golf courses, footy fields, housing and shopping centres.

Yeah its an intereting point. A set of tyre tracks is inevitable and takes the fall as environmental damage, and the bulldozer that pushed the track through isn't mentioned. Interestingly I noticed that up in the Watagans it has been the water erosion along wheel tracks that has caused the major problems, not anything to do with big tyres. But that said, to drive that track now, you will need big tyres, portal axles and and RTI of 1500.

[spamwell]

the biggest problem i have ever encountered was a some blokes dropping the clutch in mud holes out glasshouse mountains with 37's lets just say a normally easy crossing turned into a standardish sierra for breakfast.

so i guess i have seen some impact from irresponsible drivers.

aggresive 35's-37's sure do seem to dig alot bigger holes than my aggresive 30's which at the time both are aired down this could be a weight difference issue aswell.

Sadly i think the biggest problem is people who do not care, really the same reason why most things in our society become overly regulated because of wankers who want to take it to the next level and take everything further destroying anything in their path to boost their ego.

[cj]

I think that there may be a little taking out of context somewhere along the line. I have had a conversation with Michael Coldham where he told me about a demo that was done with aggressive tyres (may have been in the Otways with Rangers present but I can't quite recall the specifics) to show that they don't cause more track damage (used correctly of course) compared to a bunch of right foot in a lesser equipped vehicle to negotiate the same obstacles. I think the key here may be his thoughts are more about some of the drivers attitudes.

[SIM79]

I think the way some speed and timed 4x4 comps are run has to take some blame. If you had no clue about 4x4ing and went to speed and timed comp your first impression of 4x4ing would that its about going through the bush on the rev-limter as fast a possible with no regard for track damage or car damage.
But most of the damage it due to so many track closures, which forces more 4x4s to use less tracks more often.

[Rainbow Warrior]

I think the way some speed and timed 4x4 comps are run has to take some blame. If you had no clue about 4x4ing and went to speed and timed comp your first impression of 4x4ing would that its about going through the bush on the rev-limter as fast a possible with no regard for track damage or car damage.
But most of the damage it due to so many track closures, which forces more 4x4s to use less tracks more often.

No, that clearly debunks the "never used offroad" theory for getting rid of all 4x4's.
Look at the bad impression Bathurst races give to car drivers, most motorsport is about timed events, nobody bats an eyelid about vehicle damage when a F1 car crashes at 200kph or the hydrocarbons etc created during such events.
How about damage to the sand dunes during the Paris Dakar, haven't seen Greenpeace there protesting?
If anything 4x4 is a much slower motor sport than most others, it's about getting up a hill at slow speed without damage, and yes it's also the safest, most fun you can have at 6000rpm under 10kph in a mudhole.
When our club ran gymkanas we used to run a slow timed event, where you had to get the slowest time round an offroad track without stalling or using the clutch, but this was also impossible to continue running by insurance because it was a timed event.
There are very few 4x4 comps anymore anyway except for the full on events which are hardly road use vehicles.
Digging the same hole deeper and preventing grass growth on some tracks doesn't kill a Koala everytime a 4x4 goes through.
Water erosion is just part of the natrual process, it happens in places without tracks too, if they didn't want it to happen they should never have pushed a track through with the dozer in the first place. Don't blame 4x4's for what is inevitable anyway, yes idiots may dig a hole or 2 to help, but you push a track through you have to maintain it anyway or it gets overgrown or due to lack of maintenance damage becomes worse. If they want a road, put a road in, don't close all the trails then complain that the fire trails are overgrown, water eroded anyway and unpassable when they're needed.