Diesel Turbo upgrade options

[brumby runner]

Why is it that nobody swaps to a bigger turbo on their diesel Toyota?

I've searched and researched, and I've talked to a few diesel performance shops but I can't find out why it's not done. With Petrol performance cars, swapping in a bigger or better turbo is an excepted part of a series of upgrades when chasing more power.
With the popularity of turbo kits, intercooler kits, diesel/gas, performance chips and big mandrel exhausts, it's obvious that diesel owners want more grunt. I've read about off-the-shelf turbo upgrades in the USA for their big 3 diesel pick-ups along with a mind-blowing array of tuning parts so I know that it's a good thing.

Can anyone shed some light onto why this is so, or better still point out a workshop, preferably in QLD or NT, that has mucked around with turbo upgrades.

[Z()LTAN]

firstly whats the engine?

[+dj_hansen+]

Probably because toyota in their wisdom used a weird flange on the turbo that isnt your standard garret etc pattern so going for a different turbo means a new manifold.

Aftermarket is a different story. At the end of the day what are you trying to acheive, looking at your sig im assuming either bolting something onto the 1HZ or changing the current aftermarket turbo.

Dieseltec is probably the best man to talk to, he very well may reply in this thread for you, and search for "CT26" or "1hz AND turbo" in the search function as there is a veritable tonne of threads relating to the matter

For most people on factory turbo engines the CT26 combined with a few "basic" mods to the injection pump can yield good results especially in the off boost range. Custom or off the shelf intercooler kits and bleed valves are also cheaper than swapping turbos and are normally the first point of call unless you are talking serious boost over 16psi at which point the stock turbo becomes increasingly in-efficient.

[tweak'e]

the other thing to remeber when comapring mods done to big USA motors compared to small jap motors is putting bigger turbo's etc on often moves the power band up in the revs. good for power but sucks for low down grunt. USA motors often don't use max boost in general driving compared to smal jap that are on boost almost all the time. so with the smaller motrs you don't really want to loose to much low rpm turbo performance.

[money_killer]

there are heaps of ppls with bigger turbo's, it does get done !!

[Z()LTAN]

bigger turbos aint all that for a diesel, u con only go bigger if it had the zost flow...

[bj on roids]

Its done, its just not widely supported in the aftermarket.

[brumby runner]

Thanks for the responses guys. I might be getting somewhere now.
+dj_hansen+: I've done plenty of thread searching and although I don't post much I get on here a fair bit. Who is Dieseltec and where is he?
bj on roids (long time no talk) & money_killer: Got any recommendations of which turbos or workshops to talk to?

For a broad spectrum of experiance and opinions I made the post to include the Toyota factory turbo diesels like the 13BT, 14BT, 12HT, 1HDT, 1HDFT and 1HDFTE. My research has found that all these motors use the same turbo, the CT26, which seems bizare.

Longer term members may remember I looked into turboing the 1HZ and asked advice on here and did a heap of research. I gave up after I couldn't find anyone to guarantee it wouldn't get hot when driven hard. The few that I test drove that had "the works", intercooler, boost compensater, 3" exhaust etc were very disapointing for the seven grand+ that the owners had spent. I've moved on now to the 1HDFTE.

Haven't had a single drama with the 2 that I own. The ute has a DP Chip, Taipan 3" exhaust, K&N airfilter and soon to get a water-to-air intercooler then maybe gas. It runs very hot EGTs with the chip turned up, which limits our ability to drive it fast. The alarm on the pyro guage is set at 650*C and goes off often. Recently we jacked the rear of the bonnet up an inch and this has helped dramatically. I'm hoping the intercooler will be effective enough so that we can drop the bonnet down again. This is the vehicle I reckon would benefit from a bigger turbo.

The wagon has a Dtronic and 3" mandrel exhaust. Don't have any plans for further mods while it's the family hauler. Might dual-cab it in a few years when I get a new wagon.

[dow50r]

Whilst the ct26 is listed on all the toyota motors, they are all different configurations, toyota celica or mr2 run ct26 aswell as supra 3 litre, the compressers and turbines are different sizes and the 2 litre 4 cylinders are twin entry turbines.
bottom line, the latest ct26 in the 100 series is smaller than all the other diesel turbos, because you need boost before you can inject fuel or you make smoke. Go big and you lag till the boost increases then the pump can inject....mod the pump to mask this and you again make smoke....the best option is a small turbo and large waistegate, aslong as that small turbo can supply enough air to the motor to make boost. Go big and you get the kw's higher up but loose driveability and economy, so what was the point???
Andrew

[bj on roids]

Whilst the ct26 is listed on all the toyota motors, they are all different configurations, toyota celica or mr2 run ct26 aswell as supra 3 litre, the compressers and turbines are different sizes and the 2 litre 4 cylinders are twin entry turbines.
bottom line, the latest ct26 in the 100 series is smaller than all the other diesel turbos, because you need boost before you can inject fuel or you make smoke. Go big and you lag till the boost increases then the pump can inject....mod the pump to mask this and you again make smoke....the best option is a small turbo and large waistegate, aslong as that small turbo can supply enough air to the motor to make boost. Go big and you get the kw's higher up but loose driveability and economy, so what was the point???
Andrew

I was going to make the point that although they are CT26s, there is a number of exhaust/intake housing changes and compressor wheel/fin combinations and sizes depending on the application for which it was intended.

[brumby runner]

So CT26 are a whole line of tubos that Toyota use. That explains a lot. I presume they are all bushed type? What about roller bearing turbos then? Surely they spool-up faster so you can get away with a larger one?

I don't expect to just bolt on a new turbo and smoke the tyres in every gear. But I would have thought that a carefully designed upgrade might consist of a bigger or high-flowed turbo, external wastegate, new manifolds, bigger injecters etc. etc.

I'd just like to know who's doing this sort of stuff and what their results are.

[+dj_hansen+]

Dieseltec unfortunately resides in victoria (which is good for us but not so for you).

Any engine is going to get hot when driven hard, its just a by product of the combustion process and without totally re-working your cooling system into probably something unpractical in a wagon. Im not trying to blow smoke in your pocket, more thinking out loud so please take my dribble with a grain of salt.

Alot of work has gone into nissan motors for the comp guys, 200 rwkw is possible from the TD42 but it costs big dollars, and is driven by demand mostly. I seem to remember reading somewhere that kym bolton had spent over $20k on his TD42T to get big power. The same thing would be possible from a toyota motor if you spent the same kinda coin, but at the end of the day you probably have an expensive motor that makes great number's on paper but isnt really driveable on the road day to day due to fuel economy and the amount of off-boost smoke it makes.

Have a read in the general tech thread about the laminova intercoolers made by matt.mcinnes and awill4x4 for some serious intercooling ability; i reckon that would be a great place to start if i was building a serious motor.

[brumby runner]

I found the Diesel-Tec website and had a look around. I tried to ring them but they will be closed until the 12th. Then I rang Denco to talk about their intercoolers and see what they knew about changing turbos (or anything else). Short answer is they have not even thought about it as there is no demand. Same story I get everywhere.

Thanks for the thread tips. I'll look them up now.

[ADM01]

I am also looking at the same mod on a HDJ79, Try Highway Diesel in Brisbane, I spoke to Craig about 6 months ago and he way keen for a 1HD-FTE to play with, but mine is on blocks. I went to him because I felt the biggest limiting factor was the EFI.

He is confident that the pump is far superior to mechincal pumps in flow already and he wanted to try a full aftermarket ECM. Once you know what your pump is capable of than have a turbo and manifold built to suit if needed.

So to try answer your original question...... Everyone seems scared of the EFI, and if you cant get the fuel, no turbo will spool up as you want. A decent intercooler will drop the inlet temp, EGT's and the EFI may give you more fuel. Keen to know how you go.

Adam

[dow50r]

just on that note, Safari do a special extreme kit for the hdj100 with larger than std intercooler, 3 inch mandrel exhaust and a chip....it is not the std safari chip but a special tune for the driver wanting the best power, and putting on all the go fast bits....if that chip is installed on a std cooler or std exhaust, the motor will die from too much heat in the combustion zone. Having looked at the hdfte std turbo, i can tell you the turbine housing is comparable to a 1hdt in size, but the turbine itself is smaller diameter, which makes for faster spool but keeps the heat in the head if revved....anything past 3500 is too much flow for it...but it isnt designed to sit at those revs...so its all good...however, this is a limiting factor to outright power on this motor.
Having said that, the compresser side is larger...comparable to the 7mgte ct26 turbo....or about 5mm larger than std diesel compresser...
If you get hold of a 1hdft turbo, with the largest turbine housing of all diesels and put a supra front compresser in it, you can install your hdj79 front cover over it and you have a higher flowing turbo that bolts straight on...if you buy a 7mgte turbo, you have the largest configuration, still bolt straight on if you swap the front cover....however will loose boost below 2k, which is where all the torque is, so u loose driveability. I have the hdft/7m combo and have 10 psi at 1600 rpm/13 at 1800

[brumby runner]

Adam: Thanks, I'll give them a call. I'm not too keen on replacing the ECU with aftermarket yet. Perhaps when I learn more about them. Surely the software is not very complicated compared to a common-rail engine?

Andrew: Very interesing. Did you do it yourself or use a workshop? In other words, where can I get one? Also, did you dyno before and after playing with the housings and turbines?

[dow50r]

keep an eye on ebay.

[matt.mcinnes]

I found the Diesel-Tec website and had a look around. I tried to ring them but they will be closed until the 12th. Then I rang Denco to talk about their intercoolers and see what they knew about changing turbos (or anything else). Short answer is they have not even thought about it as there is no demand. Same story I get everywhere.

Thanks for the thread tips. I'll look them up now.

If you need serious off road intercooling then as DJ has said you need to have a read and talk to us. Actually if you need any serious intercooling

Not just for Mav TD42T's you will find if you have a read.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic139640.php

[brumby runner]

Matt: Just finished reading the engine build-up on your website. Mammoth task you set yourself. Spooky how the dollars get away isn't it? I'd actually tripped over this project on mud before the intercooler came to light. I'm a big fan of the 2F, not so much the 3F.

dow50r: Do you know if the turbos on the HDJ79 and HDJ100 are the same size?

[80diesel4play]

I know of someone who is keen to use an ECU based pump on TD42. Wolf do a good ECU, I think the numbers would equate to 280+KW from the motor as the ECU can be programmed to make good power across the range but set the punch up to suit the turbo exactly.

Dzltec tunes my car and so far he has been able to get the most from the combination. Like everything - it all comes down to how deep your pockets are and how long your arms can go.

Hmmm, plenty for you to work with!

[KiwiBacon]

Probably because toyota in their wisdom used a weird flange on the turbo that isnt your standard garret etc pattern so going for a different turbo means a new manifold.

I have a selection of adapter plates designed which fit your common garrett turbos onto toyota flanges.

CT20 to T3, T25/T28.
CT26 to T3, T25/T28 GT2052.

PM me your email address if you'd like the drawings and profile DXF.

[fester2au]

My understanding is the turbos are the same in the ute and wagon but the wagon ECU has higher tuning and there are differences in the injectors and pumps but I've not got first hand experience, was told this from MTQ in Bris.

Also what do you consider hard driving as I have never got the FTE in my 80 series to run hot EGT's. Haven't towed yet but tried all sorts of other things to test it out and it runs pretty consistent.

[brumby runner]

KiwiBacon: Thanks for the offer. That will make the Garrett swap easier if we go that way.

fester2au: Is that a typo or did you convert your 80 to EFI?
Lets see, before jacking the bonnet I couldn't maintain 140km/h unless the DP chip was turned off and then it struggled to get there. Now I'm letting the hot air out it can handle 160km/h with the chip on 9. Private roads of course.
Before I jacked the bonnet, I couldn't tow my car trailer over 115km/h and I haven't towed since so don't know what it does now. Interestingly enough the coolant temp never increases, it's just the egt. Our chip is pretty warm though, DP took it back and modified it and the difference is noticeable.
I had the chance to test another 79 series ute, almost the same as mine but with a Dtronic and factory exhaust. Try as we might, couldn't get the EGTs over 520*C. That's why I went for the Dtronic on my wagon. They seem to have a safer tune.

[fester2au]

fester2au: Is that a typo or did you convert your 80 to EFI? I didn't but the previous owner did. He put a 79 series engine in

Lets see, before jacking the bonnet I couldn't maintain 140km/h unless the DP chip was turned off and then it struggled to get there. Now I'm letting the hot air out it can handle 160km/h with the chip on 9. Private roads of course.
Before I jacked the bonnet, I couldn't tow my car trailer over 115km/h and I haven't towed since so don't know what it does now. Interestingly enough the coolant temp never increases, it's just the egt. Our chip is pretty warm though, DP took it back and modified it and the difference is noticeable.
I had the chance to test another 79 series ute, almost the same as mine but with a Dtronic and factory exhaust. Try as we might, couldn't get the EGTs over 520*C. That's why I went for the Dtronic on my wagon. They seem to have a safer tune.

Interesting, I am running with a 100 series DP chip set at 7 or 8 (can't remember) and my temps seem fine. Even lugging up a steep hill from a low speed in 5th it hardly gets to caution point. I still have not cracked 450 post turbo. All I've got is a straight through 3" exhaust. Maybe the under bonnet heat of the utes is a significant point. I knew a guy who had to put a top mount intercooler on his turbo 1HZ ute as it always ran hot under load and this fixed it. Pretty crappy design flow wise - made no more power with the cooler charge but it was enough to take the edge of EGT's.