Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

Post by **BASSYK** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:35 pm

yay , you got there by .8Kw!

nice work

Post by **marin** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:08 pm

BASSYK wrote:yay , you got there by .8Kw!

nice work

So, only another 60kw to match u?

marin

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:43 pm

Sorry internet down as I swapped from Telstra to Optus and its soooooo fast it could almost catch the Mav

Well yes I made it to DzlTec's

On the whole all good, I was a little disappointed that the post intercooler temp sat around the mid 50C, I expected to get closer to ambient with the larger heat exchange/rad. Ambient been 31C
So maybe integrating it into the plenum may have a down side, soaking heat up from the engine block. The generic bolt on version will be interesting to see with the same set up as it will not have this issue. But we intend to tell all.
Maybe twin thermo fans would be better for this situation on the Dyno, real world drving you would have air flow all the time not just when the dyno's huge cooling fan kicks in at the start of the run. This maybe more of a Dyno enviorment issue than real world. Also I had cained it for over 30min to get to the Dyno to see what I could push the EGT's too. So it was not from a cold start, I could have stuck it on the Dyno with the water at ambient and the first run would look outstanding. The post above was the 7th or 8th run for pre and post temps, plus my driving.
On the plus side, the intercooler rocks flat lining intake temps infact as you can see in the graph it actual gets colder as the turbo gets hotter. The cooling fan at the front of the dyno kicking in has a marked effect.

Dyno'd with no adjustments and the intercooler working we were running much leaner and EGT's maxing at 420C

With fuel re adjusted we cracked the 100kw by 0.8 and EGT's to 470C

No black smoke were not over fueling to make theses numbers

This is the 1st Dyno and the Last we have plenty of data too from in between. You will also notice the turbo is not quite working as hard.

I forgot to ask Andy at DzlTec for the pre and post MAP but he has it on file so I'm sure we will post up soon.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:44 pm

marin wrote:
BASSYK wrote:yay , you got there by .8Kw!

nice work
So, only another 60kw to match u?

marin

Another 80 to catch me

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:30 pm

So that's the same truck both before and after installation?
Blue and red being before and after tuning don't make much sense as your manifold pressure dropped.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:21 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:So that's the same truck both before and after installation?
Blue and red being before and after tuning don't make much sense as your manifold pressure dropped.

Yes same truck

, Both manfiold pressures are pretty much the same just at peek power there is a slight variance.
One taken before any work started and the 100.8kw run was the last one.

I would say thats the differences in the DTS and the new intercooler, and how it effects the waste gate. But I'm no expert here so maybe DzlTec has some ideas. Infact looking at that it looks more like the wastegate is working better as the line is flatter, reaching boost and leavling out and then tapering off as I suspect the turbo slightly too small for top end power. A bigger turbo maybe required soon

After thought.
It maybe where its measured, the pre and post MAP graph may show the same pressure on the pre intercooler side and the measurment on the above graph may now be post intercooler at 100KW.

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:04 am

matt.mcinnes wrote: After thought.
It maybe where its measured, the pre and post MAP graph may show the same pressure on the pre intercooler side and the measurment on the above graph may now be post intercooler at 100KW.

Aha.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 am

One thing I did realize is if the temperature is going down with the Dyno's big fan on then the Telstar heat exchanger may be big enough and the higher temps are just heat soak when idling standing still.

I may need to get a temp sensor in just to see what we have daily driving. Off road use may warrant twin thermos at lower speeds.

What we do know is the intercoolers work.

Post by **marin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:06 am

Might look at lifting the rear of my bonnet to reduce heat soak.

marin

Post by **bigcam** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:54 am

ben, what about a bakelite (or similar plastic material) spacer about 8mm thick laser cut to match the inlet manifold between the inlet manifold and head, with two gaskets, this would act as an insulator from engine heat and hopefully reduce the manifold heatsoak. they used to do this with carbies etc to reduce fuel vaporization back in the day.

Post by **Hoonz** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:30 am

i'm guessing its a stock TD42 running 12 psi?
more boost and fuel required!

push its limits some more

Post by **bogged** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:07 pm

marin wrote:Might look at lifting the rear of my bonnet to reduce heat soak.

I would say the heat is too close to the manifold which is bolted to block (since its part of the actual mainfold now isnt it)to make that much difference. I would be trying air flow thru the telstar radiator (you did check it wasnt 90% blocked before fitting?) for cooling..

edit: or as bigcam says..

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:58 pm

bogged wrote:
marin wrote:Might look at lifting the rear of my bonnet to reduce heat soak.
I would say the heat is too close to the manifold which is bolted to block (since its part of the actual mainfold now isnt it)to make that much difference. I would be trying air flow thru the telstar radiator (you did check it wasnt 90% blocked before fitting?) for cooling..

edit: or as bigcam says..

Telstar Rad was like new inside it was checked when we fitted the custom end tanks. I think the heat soak is just a Dyno thing standing still, off road therefor you may need 2 spal fans. You will notice how your temp actual goes down, this is when the big fan infront of the dyno has kicked in and your heat exchanger has good air flow, such as normal driving conditions will produce, even though turbo temps are going through the roof so to speak. Which means to me that the Telstar rad is big enough other wise temps would rise not fall.

I think we need to install a temp sensor so we can see daily driver temps post intercooler in the same way I can with the Wolf over ambient.

You do have more heat soak to contend with as its Aluminum bolted to the engine block than I do. Also your Diesel spends more time on boost just driving normally where as mine is on boost and then off completely.

So can you get closer to ambient, yes but not standing still.

Boost compensator is on the cards, then more boost and fuel, but it may also need a bigger turbo

thats up to Marin anyway, I think for the moment he's a very happy chap.

The insulting gasket is an excellent idea to stop direct heat transfer, I might look into what's available.

Now who is up for a Generic bolt on version? I would like to replicate the Telstar Rad/heat exchanger system in a Turbo Diesel GQ so we can see the differences. So again a relatively stock set up would be ideal.
PM me for a Guinea Pig price.

You will like Marin be expected to install most of it yourself with our help as we did with Marin.
Interstate is fine if your happy to install on your own.
Again you will also need to be prepared to have a before work start Dyno and after with data logged for pre and post temp and map.

Post by **gqpete** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:53 pm

hope yours will work, as we tried one on a freinds car a while ago . did the maths, it shoulda worked but after first run on dyno egt was way to high. back went the trusty air-air. in the bin it went.

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:03 pm

gqpete wrote:hope yours will work, as we tried one on a freinds car a while ago . did the maths, it shoulda worked but after first run on dyno egt was way to high. back went the trusty air-air. in the bin it went.

You didn't do some trouble shooting to find out exactly where the problem was?

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:21 pm

gqpete wrote:hope yours will work, as we tried one on a freinds car a while ago . did the maths, it shoulda worked but after first run on dyno egt was way to high. back went the trusty air-air. in the bin it went.

EGT's max'd at 470C on the last run and Andy at Dzltec did around 10-12 runs pretty much back to back, only pausing to adjust fuel and swap sensors around. Plus me caning it over there.

Mine worked a treat at Vic Winch 08 on my 40

Pete were you using Laminova cores or bar and fin?

If Marin's was a comp truck I would be using a bigger heat exchanger too, as chopping the grill is less of an issue or mounting on a tray. This build was to intercool and still look stock. This intercooler would fit a none lifted truck.
A bigger heat exchanger means getting closer to ambient easier, so far we have not troubled the intercoolers capabilities.

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:25 pm

Ca we have a photo looking right down on top? with the bonnet up?

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:09 pm

KiwiBacon wrote:Ca we have a photo looking right down on top? with the bonnet up?

Can't get right over the top bonnet only goes so far Mav's/GQ's

Best I can do.

Marin just has to tidy the heat lines up and fit a catch can.

Post by **awill4x4** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:18 pm

Matt I was talking to Darren about it last night and he had a couple of suggestions.
We need to check what the water flow is coming through the radiator and we need to check the coolant temps. There may be a restriction somewhere in the water system that isn't allowing enough flow.
Welding a skin around the "cool" side of the intercooler and sandwiching a heat resistant material between the 2 surfaces, leave the hot side as is to allow the heat to radiate outwards.
The suggestion of an insulating block between head and manifold was a good one.
Measuring the heat in the engine bay in various places, the TD42 is notorious for running hot.
Darren has a temperature data logging thingumajig we just need to get some thermocouples and we can test to our hearts content.
It was a hot day when you did it and by the time I was talking to you the temps were in the mid 30's and drawing air through the normal intake rather than a snorkel would not be the best.
We found that on your car when you put the snorkel on.
Regards Andrew.

Post by **marin** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:08 pm

Have never had heat issues with this car, it has always if anything run a little 2 cold on the gauge, it took a 30 - 45 minute run in low 2nd and 3rd going reasonably hard (those who know me know how I drive lol), all uphill going the back way up Mt Terrible (from the Eildon end of Big River) when I first got the car to go up to 3/4 on the gauge, and it was a cold enough day that there was snow up the top.... otherwise it runs between 1/8th and 1/4 on the gauge, and I have replaced the temp sender.

marin

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:31 pm

I was going to ask Andy at DzlTec about temp sensors, his use a generic thermo couple plug. They will also fit the current test points without drilling new holes, Jcars do a few real time readouts for them. This way we have dyno and real world intake temps.

Snorkle I agree or a cold air intake is an important factor too. Getting back on cold air quickly after boost helps a lot with keeping the temps lower as with mine.

I don't think their is anything wrong with flow and cooling, the intercooler is transfering heeps of heat to the water and when the large fan is running infront of the truck on the Dyno temps come down even when at full boost. So the heat exchanger is big enough it just needs air flow at low speed and I think we are all good.

The only question is does Marin want twin spal fans.

Actuall tell Darren to order me one, I'll try it with two on and have another run on the dyno next Monday, if Marin only want's the one then I'm sure I can find a use for it

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:00 am

marin wrote:Have never had heat issues with this car, it has always if anything run a little 2 cold on the gauge, it took a 30 - 45 minute run in low 2nd and 3rd going reasonably hard (those who know me know how I drive lol), all uphill going the back way up Mt Terrible (from the Eildon end of Big River) when I first got the car to go up to 3/4 on the gauge, and it was a cold enough day that there was snow up the top.... otherwise it runs between 1/8th and 1/4 on the gauge, and I have replaced the temp sender.

marin

Engine bay temps not engine temps

sometimes he worries me, but never when he's navi

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:51 pm

If you stop and take time to work things out its not so bad, intake temps will be like mine around the 55C without a snorkel, pre intercooler, which we see on the graph, giving it a hard time and then stopping in your TD generates a lot of heat as its on boost all the time, then stopping means their is not enough air flow to cool it down quickly, this is at a time when the intercooler really needs to cool. The large dyno fan kicking in and out with the run so its no longer on. So after the run your relying on the single thermo fan at a time when water temps are maxing out, this been the time when you really need to cool as much as possible. No great issue if you were to continue driving. So you see a little heat soak infact the intercooler cores are taking out 105c at the end of the run, the next dyno run then builds on that, but the large dyno fan kicking in then gives the heat exchanger enough flow and temps come down.
At stand still you only have half a heat exchanger two fans will double the cooling at idle.

So what we have here are stop start runs with insufficient cooling at idle to remove the heat in time for the next run, to the point where the intercooler has max'd out matching idle intake temps. I think what we are seeing here is worst case scenario with a single fan, due to the fact that the air temp actually goes down when the intake temp is hitting 105c as long as you have good air flow.
Or in other words you will never exceed your intake temp at idle with a single fan.

Fixes
1 Twin Fans a must for off raod
2 Larger heat exchanger with twin fans even better but that depends on how much you want to chop or if you have a tray.

Makes sense to me

Post by **STreBLo** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:55 pm

interesting thread. your playing with 100kw. try 200kw winch 'COMP' truck and imitate driving such as half blocked radiator (mudded) and lots of reving on hills in mud with not much natural airflow, eg low range 3-6k revs for a while. then you'll see heat soak.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:58 pm

STreBLo wrote:interesting thread. your playing with 100kw. try 200kw winch 'COMP' truck and imitate driving such as half blocked radiator (mudded) and lots of reving on hills in mud with not much natural airflow, eg low range 3-6k revs for a while. then you'll see heat soak.

You mean like this one

with the heat exchanger in the tray, air to air have just the same issues with mud but they have to be up front.

Intake temps are dependent on Boost made not KW

The BMW at 18psi and 450kw should be interesting but no mud on 4 cores.

Not to mention the 745kw one were designing for a US BMW 7 or 8 cores dependent on space.

But still small fry compared to the 12 core 1350kw for the LS1.

Post by **STreBLo** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:27 pm

exactly. i want to know if this will cool 200kw , say 25-30 psi boost, if it does then 100kw , say 10psi boost, will piss it in. oh and still close the bonnet

oh yeah and nice work

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:33 pm

STreBLo wrote:exactly. i want to know if this will cool 200kw , say 25-30 psi boost, if it does then 100kw , say 10psi boost, will piss it in. oh and still close the bonnet
oh yeah and nice work

Too easy you just need a rad/heat exchanger big enough to dissipate the heat and the right number of cores. Ideally in a comp truck rad/heat exchanger mounted in the rear or on the tray.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:47 pm

I have been running Marin's Mav for a couple of days, power is noticeable you can tell you have 21% more KW, EGT's are down even with the fuel adjusted up, I also have to say it's quite fun to drive for a large Diesel.

The second thermo fan has arrived so I will fit that over the long weekend and back on the Dyno Tuesday all been well, just to have a comparison.

Post by **Hoonz** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:06 am

matt.mcinnes wrote:I have been running Marin's Mav for a couple of days, power is noticeable you can tell you have 21% more KW, EGT's are down even with the fuel adjusted up, I also have to say it's quite fun to drive for a large Diesel.

The second thermo fan has arrived so I will fit that over the long weekend and back on the Dyno Tuesday all been well, just to have a comparison.

seeing as ur EGTs are down are you going to fuel up to bring them back it back up? more power

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:28 am

Hoonz wrote:
matt.mcinnes wrote:I have been running Marin's Mav for a couple of days, power is noticeable you can tell you have 21% more KW, EGT's are down even with the fuel adjusted up, I also have to say it's quite fun to drive for a large Diesel.

The second thermo fan has arrived so I will fit that over the long weekend and back on the Dyno Tuesday all been well, just to have a comparison.
seeing as ur EGTs are down are you going to fuel up to bring them back it back up? more power

Very tempting but I'll leave that to Marin, the more we push now will give black smoke at low rpm without a boost compensator but yes we could make more power still.

21% more power and lower EGT's is a great result. I just want to bring intake temps down a little at low speed and I will be a very happy man.

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Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

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