Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:13 pm

The 12 core end plates came in today for the 52 Mercury.

Also picked up second 13 Spal fan for the Mav.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:04 pm

Second fan fitted and water temps in the intercooler are much lower quite a marked difference after running around toady.

Dyno Tuesday

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:32 am

Well final testing is done, the Mav fiished.

Dyno'd today at 35C ambient

No dyno print outs Andy @ Dzltec is not back until tomorrow so some time next week.

Twin thermos gave us the extra cooling on the dyno adding 4.5kw

So all up now 104.5kw @12 PSI ambient 35C

26% power increase from what we started with and cooler EGT's

Post by **bigbluemav** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:51 am

Excellent thread!!

Great pics and even better info!!

Regards

David McInnes
(Seriously!!)

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:31 pm

Next on the drawing board is this BMW M3 just have to figure out how to flow cylinders 1 and 6 a little better

Post by **Hoonz** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:40 pm

so how much for the TD42 kit?

Post by **Z()LTAN** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:57 pm

If marin is ok with it i suggest pusing the limits of the cooler to see it effectiveness at higher boost/fuel/egt levels.

I want to see 540odd with 18psi then ill think these coolers are worth it.

So far it would seem a decent sized barrel type cooler with a good thermo'd radiator could do the same as your laminova.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:42 pm

Z()LTAN wrote:If marin is ok with it i suggest pusing the limits of the cooler to see it effectiveness at higher boost/fuel/egt levels.

I want to see 540odd with 18psi then ill think these coolers are worth it.

So far it would seem a decent sized barrel type cooler with a good thermo'd radiator could do the same as your laminova.

Feel free to try with a PWR or any other type of air to water intercooler.

I happy to compare the results and see how we stack up.

No one will achive the pressure drops we are achiving with bar and fin designs though.

Post by **Z()LTAN** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:34 pm

sweet as mate

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:19 am

Hoonz wrote:so how much for the TD42 kit?

Almost their.

Some Idea of the bolt on cost,
Approx:
New Telstar Rad with custom end tanks $400
Spal 13" slim line fan $200ea
Davies Craig pump 80 Ltr $200
Cores from Ebay $50US ea

Intercooler $800 plus fabrication which we have yet to work out.

I would hope to be around the $2500 mark.

Volume may make things cheaper in time but we have to start small, if we start at all, we may only make an odd one here and there.

A PWR barrel kit is $700 cheaper the question is are ours worth the difference at the end of the day.

Me and Andrew never set out to start an intercooler business, we know these are not cheap and never will be the nature of the engineering, cores and the extras all add up.

What we do know is they cool very well with minimal pressure drop. We have not hidden any data produced good or bad. The one thing that is still hard to find is real data for other set ups with refereance to pre and post MAP and Temp. They are only happy to tell you HP and that really means very little.

26% more power for $2500, value for money that's for you people out their to decide.

Will it cool in a higher perfornace set up, I would say so we are still flat lining intake temps, 9psi (82c) in mine and now 12psi (110) in Marin's.

I don't think the intercoolers will have a problem, the issue will be a heat exchanger good enough to keep up with it.

Like all things time will tell.

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:31 am

matt.mcinnes wrote: 26% more power for $2500, value for money that's for you people out their to decide.

Of course people who buy these systems would be mixing in at least a boost and fuel increase too. Your systems should have the head-room to cope with that nicely.
No-one upgrades an intercooler and stops there.

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:44 am

KiwiBacon wrote:
matt.mcinnes wrote: 26% more power for $2500, value for money that's for you people out their to decide.
Of course people who buy these systems would be mixing in at least a boost and fuel increase too. Your systems should have the head-room to cope with that nicely.
No-one upgrades an intercooler and stops there.

Thats down to Marin but I do know he's bought a boost control kit can't imagine why

Post by **marin** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:31 am

I have been without my rig for who knows how long now, I have sliders that need to be welded on, a bullbar that needs to be modded for body lift, I need to install my second and third batteries in the cabin, need to install my stereo, have bought a set of 35" road tyres and am 90% sure (am waiting on a phone call back) that I have bought a brand new set of 5 35x11.5x15 pede's, which will need rims, also need to cut the rear quarters (after some guy ran into the quarter with his tow bar) and get a rear bar, need to put in another front diff that I have for a while, make sure it is straight, then take it out again and rebuild it completely and get it braced, and I still need a snorkel as well

On top of all that, to go with more boost (and do it properly) I will need to get an injector pump modified with a bigger rotor and a compensator ($1500 - $2000) and in the end my mitsubishi turbo is really only good for about 16 or 17 psi I have been told.

If people there are a couple of people looking at getting matt to make them one of these coolers, post up and i'll try and persuade myself to spend more money on power a little earlier than I had planned....

On top of all that, I work away from home for 2 weeks at a time, and only get 5 days at home to do all this..... and i very limited access to phones at work to organise stuff.

so anyways, don't take it as a rant in any way, just letting you guys know where I stand atm with all this......

another thought is to maybe get andy to just up the boost to 16 - 18 as she stands, well as far as we can go with the stock fuel pump any way (and blow some black smoke) and see if we can get some figures on the dyno without breaking anything, and then wind it back till I can spend some money on the fuel pump.

marin

Post by **coxy321** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:11 am

Hey marin, a little bit of diesel smoke never killed anyone!

I say give it a crack, and see if you can find the limits of your current turbo and pump setup. I'm sure there's plenty of people keen to see how far the stuck pump will go.

I'm very interested to see how much the laminova setup can take before it starts to get some heat soak in it. It would be fantastic to see one on a 200rwkw TD42 dealing with some serious heat!

Post by **KiwiBacon** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:22 am

So yours is originally NA with an aftermarket turbo?
Do the factory TD24T pumps have boost compensators? Must be a whole lot cheaper to just get one of those.

Of course a sensible right foot can do the job of a boost compensator anyway. All they do is limit fuel until the turbo produces enough boost.

Post by **marin** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:22 am

matt? another trip to diesel tec? hopefully that boost controller is at home when i get home and i can install it.... then send matt down to andy again... or even take it myself (lol, imagine that!) if i get time...

andy, you up for doing this? or are there good reasons not to....

marin

Post by **Mudzuki** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:34 am

From what I have been told, the stock GQ pump is only good for around 100rwkw of fuel, so it looks like your doing well as it is.

Modified pump and reset injectors is still going to set you back plenty ...

Post by **marin** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:15 am

Mudzuki wrote:From what I have been told, the stock GQ pump is only good for around 100rwkw of fuel, so it looks like your doing well as it is.

Modified pump and reset injectors is still going to set you back plenty ...

As I thought...

marin

Post by **coxy321** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:19 pm

marin wrote:
Mudzuki wrote:From what I have been told, the stock GQ pump is only good for around 100rwkw of fuel, so it looks like your doing well as it is.

Modified pump and reset injectors is still going to set you back plenty ...
As I thought...

marin

Just do it, dont be soft!

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:56 pm

I think he would actually like to drive his Mav for while.

I am going to ask Andy @ Dzltec's if he would mind gathering some data from other intercooler set ups while he's dynoing them re pre and post intercooler MAP and Temp this would mean a couple of extra runs.

Their is such little real world data to compare to, even if we test Marin's fueled and boosted up what have we to compare it too.

Post by **Bush65** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:39 pm

IMHO:

Egt is not the most important measurement for evaluating intercooler performance/efficiency (but it is important for other reasons).

What you want to know are, temp difference (before - after) and the mass flow of air. If you don't know these, you can't make a meaningful comparison with other intercoolers (unless it was on the same vehicle, same conditions, with no other change except intercooler).

Also if you push the boost pressure so the turbo's compressor is operating at poor efficiency (I don't know if that is the case or not), then you could expect a small increase in air mass flow for an excessive increase in charge air temperature. So the intercooler may be doing a good job, but be blamed because the increase in power is low, when the blame should be down to the turbo.

Post by **Dzltec** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:40 pm

Marin, certainly no harm in bumping up boost a little more to see what happens. I don't think it will get to large psi figures, but will be interesting to see how well it keeps it cool. It all looks promising so far.

Andy

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:46 pm

Dzltec wrote:Marin, certainly no harm in bumping up boost a little more to see what happens. I don't think it will get to large psi figures, but will be interesting to see how well it keeps it cool. It all looks promising so far.

Andy

When we disconnected the waste gate it made around 17psi on the boost gauge.

Post by **coxy321** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:25 pm

matt.mcinnes wrote:
Dzltec wrote:Marin, certainly no harm in bumping up boost a little more to see what happens. I don't think it will get to large psi figures, but will be interesting to see how well it keeps it cool. It all looks promising so far.

Andy
When we disconnected the waste gate it made around 17psi on the boost gauge.

Should be interesting given what bush65 said.

At the moment, what is the boost bandwidth (RPM) of the current turbo?

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:38 pm

coxy321 wrote:
matt.mcinnes wrote:
Dzltec wrote:Marin, certainly no harm in bumping up boost a little more to see what happens. I don't think it will get to large psi figures, but will be interesting to see how well it keeps it cool. It all looks promising so far.

Andy
When we disconnected the waste gate it made around 17psi on the boost gauge.

Should be interesting given what bush65 said.

At the moment, what is the boost bandwidth (RPM) of the current turbo?

The turbo is running out of puff at top end you can see that in the way the boost tapers off over 120kph.
Bush 65 is right the more you push the turbo the further outside it's efficiencies it will get and therefor produce more heat than a correctly sized more suitable turbo. Guess that will only test the intercooler more.

But at the end of the day it all comes down to what the stock fuel pump do. Oh and Marin

Post by **matt.mcinnes** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:32 pm

In the mean time we have a willing candidate for the bolt on version it seems

Post by **Dominator** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:15 am

i just upped my boost from 10 to 13psi (TD42). I came out with 121 RWHP with 35's and a front mount ic. The fella that done the dyno tune said he could not get any more out of the fuel pump. As it stands it is pushing all the fuel it can. Next step is upgading fuel pump which i dont have the money for.

Post by **money_killer** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:22 am

why dont uses make a complete new inlet manifold the stock ones are crap does not evenly flow with the entry in the centre.

Post by **Weiner** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:55 am

Saw you last night in Mitcham Matt, how is the cooler liking this weather?

Post by **marin** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:23 am

money_killer wrote:why dont uses make a complete new inlet manifold the stock ones are crap does not evenly flow with the entry in the centre.

Look back a few pages and you will see that is exactly what we have done with mine.... the idea of a bolt on 1 is that it will be cheaper....

marin

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Laminova Cored Intercoolers (Home Brew 2. GQ TD 42 )

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