Dual Battery issue, any good auto elecs in eastern burbs

[weeman]

Ok ive kinda got dilemma with my GU patrol and been to a couple of auto elecs....

I have dual battery system wired up with a solenoid setup, both batteries are 18 months old exide orbitals, and the dual battery setup was done by an auto elec.

Ive tested the alternator and its charging at 14.2 volts, across both batteries which is great and its only 12 months old.

I should let you know i have big stereo system thats wired to the second battery.. (sub, 2 amps hefty system)

NOW THE PROBLEM,

If i leave my lights on for more than 5 mins i can start the 4wd its dead however my stereo will run and run fine.

Ive tried jump starting the batteries i.e jumper leads across both of them and it wont start.

Once got me beat why is it happening i went to an exide dealer and they tested the batteries and said fine, just needed a charge so i put them on a charger and all good but still getting this problem.

On the main battery, i dont have any accessories just my hid lighs and thats it... Checked the fuse and the solenoid all look good but could the solenoid be faulty? Started Motor?

Anyone know who i could take this to?

[chimpboy]

Just a suggestion, maybe run a fixed wire between the two batteries for a while. eg a big jumper across the two main terminals of the solenoid. The dual battery solenoid will then be irrelevant. If there is still a problem then it will point to some other cause.

[TRobbo]

Croydon auto elecs. rose avenue croydon.

they get all of my work and have done for 20 yrs.

My ex girlfriends old man was a mechanic and put me onto them.

Never had a problem with anything they have done including custom work.

[woodys72]

Croydon auto elecs. rose avenue croydon.

they get all of my work and have done for 20 yrs.

My ex girlfriends old man was a mechanic and put me onto them.

Never had a problem with anything they have done including custom work.

Second that, my girlfriends dad is a mechanic and uses him aswell! Out of interest how did Exide test the batteries? Just a little hand held tester?

[chimpboy]

Croydon auto elecs. rose avenue croydon.

they get all of my work and have done for 20 yrs.

My ex girlfriends old man was a mechanic and put me onto them.

Never had a problem with anything they have done including custom work.

Second that, my girlfriends dad is a mechanic and uses him aswell! Out of interest how did Exide test the batteries? Just a little hand held tester?

lol this could get ugly.

[woodys72]

lol this could get ugly.

lol, he said he's used them for like 20 years. Im only 24

[+dj_hansen+]

Just a suggestion, maybe run a fixed wire between the two batteries for a while. eg a big jumper across the two main terminals of the solenoid. The dual battery solenoid will then be irrelevant. If there is still a problem then it will point to some other cause.

This would be a start, solenoid may be welded/jammed open paralleling the batteries.

[stuee]

What are each of the batteries voltages when you attempt to jump start it, when running etc. That would be an easy way to identify if the solenoids jammed. Looks like a likely problem too as often your stereo will run fine but there wont be nearly enough juice to kick the starter motor over (I learnt this the hard way with my set-up).

Also when you are trying to jump from the second battery is the amplifier(s) causing a noticeable voltage drop that's not allowing the starter motor to fire as necessary. Some amps I think can draw power even when the cars turned off unless they're power feed is controlled by a relay that's activated by the ignition.

What's concerning though is that the lights are only on for 5 mins and draining enough juice to not allow you to start.

[-Scott-]

lol this could get ugly.

lol, he said he's used them for like 20 years. Im only 24

Did your girlfriend ever have a thing for older men?

[Oscars]

starter issue?

[TRobbo]

lol this could get ugly.

lol, he said he's used them for like 20 years. Im only 24

Did your girlfriend ever have a thing for older men?

And how old is your girlfriend anyway?

[woodys72]

lol this could get ugly.

lol, he said he's used them for like 20 years. Im only 24

Did your girlfriend ever have a thing for older men?

And how old is your girlfriend anyway?

only 20

[weeman]

hey guys thanks for some of the info.

Exide tested the batteries with one of there testers and it said, condition good, however needs a recharge so thats when i charged them up. So are there testers mickey mouse??? or the real thing

I think its the solenoid, as again today it took a while to start (maybe i was low on fuel) but none theless as i was trying to start it the stereo was working fine.

Im going to call up the auto elec and ask them to have another look at it as its so frustrating and to be alot to have it rewired even more so.

Anyone else you can recommend to have a look at it ?

[chimpboy]

I'm sorry, I don't have a recommendation.

However... I am just not really seeing how the solenoid is the likely issue here.

It sounds like your main battery is going flat all the time and your aux battery isn't... is that right? Hence you can run stuff off the aux battery but can't start off the main one.

This doesn't really point at the dual battery solenoid for me.

With regards to the battery test, AFAIK you can't fully trust a test unless it puts the battery under a decent load; they can look okay on a theoretical test but fail when they are actually being asked to do heavy work..

Is it difficult for you to swap the two batteries and see if the problem is specific to one battery? And can you check that they have good earths to the chassis.

[weeman]

I just would have thought that solenoid would allow the switch over to the secondary battery to start the vehicle.

Yeah the main battery is going flat and yes the aux is fine, well to me knowledge it is.

However if i try to jump start them across each that wont work either.

In regards to the load testing, exide centre said it was difficult to load test the try cell batteries...

I might give this new auto elec a call but sick of spending money on the same issues just would like reliable battery setup.

[stuee]

Yeah the main battery is going flat and yes the aux is fine, well to me knowledge it is.

How are you measuring the state your batteries are in?

What are the voltages of each battery when you try and jump it? If the aux is fine like you say there shouldn't be a problem.

I would still suspect your stereo gear is causing a voltage drop if both your batteries are in good condition.

After a long drive (so the batteries can be charged) switch off the motor and measure the voltages. If your batteries are healthy they should both be about the same and should also easily be over 12.5 volts. If not then you've either got a charging problem or your batteries are toast.

And if you don't have a multimeter to measure voltage buy one from dicksmith or jaycar for $15 bucks. They are a good diagnostic tool and cheaper than going to an auto sparky straight up.

[TRobbo]

below is lifted from Piranha

"The solenoid isolator is like an automatic switch. When power is fed into the switching terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid is switched on, allowing the power to flow between batteries. This will allow you to start from both batteries. The batteries are charged together in parallel when the solenoid is switched on. When the solenoid is switched off only the main battery will charge.
The power feed for the solenoid is normally connected to the ignition circuit, so the solenoid will, switch on and off with the ignition. You may place a switch inside the cabin of the vehicle to manually switch the solenoid off and on (when the ignition is on) at your desire. If you run your auxiliary battery flat, (from using a fridge for a couple of days and not running the motor to charge the battery) there is the danger of flattening your main battery as soon as you turn the ignition on. This is due to the large equalizing effect between the batteries. The switch is useful as it will stop the batteries paralleling when you turn the ignition on, and flattening the main battery. You then switch the solenoid back on once you are traveling"

I assume you dont have a manual switch for the solenoid?

So looking at the above if you are running your aux battery down with the stereo you may have problems trying to start. Your starter will require more power to turn and will show up as a flat battery before your stereo will be affected. The switching effect of the solenoid with ignition would explain why you cannot jump start from your aux battery. You may actually be going the wrong way by joining the batteries to start the car and need to sperate them.

I guess a test of this theory would be to have a voltmeter and check the charge of each battery prior to attempting to start i.e ignition off and recording the voltage of each when they are seperated . Then check the charge of each battery as you turn the key through each phase.

I assume that the batteries will not read exactly the same voltage when seperated (I may be wrong) but as you go through each phase on the ignition at one point they will be joined and the voltage will then read the same.

as indicated you could also have a bad earth. GU's have a terrible problem with bad earths and often need an extra earth strap (you will probably find out more about this by searching the nissan thread).

[chimpboy]

below is lifted from Piranha

"The solenoid isolator is like an automatic switch. When power is fed into the switching terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid is switched on, allowing the power to flow between batteries. This will allow you to start from both batteries. The batteries are charged together in parallel when the solenoid is switched on. When the solenoid is switched off only the main battery will charge.

The power feed for the solenoid is normally connected to the ignition circuit, so the solenoid will, switch on and off with the ignition.

Oh, that is quite a silly set-up. I must admit I assumed that the Piranha stuff would be better than that.

[TRobbo]

it's just a simple solenoid and I assume they will all work the same.

The problem will arise with the way it is wired.

Without a manual switch, I am not sure where else would you pick the feed up from for it to switch and join the batteries?

[LOCKEE]

below is lifted from Piranha

"The solenoid isolator is like an automatic switch. When power is fed into the switching terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid is switched on, allowing the power to flow between batteries. This will allow you to start from both batteries. The batteries are charged together in parallel when the solenoid is switched on. When the solenoid is switched off only the main battery will charge.

The power feed for the solenoid is normally connected to the ignition circuit, so the solenoid will, switch on and off with the ignition.

Oh, that is quite a silly set-up. I must admit I assumed that the Piranha stuff would be better than that.

This explains how opposition systems work and why they don't recommend them.

[stuee]

below is lifted from Piranha

"The solenoid isolator is like an automatic switch. When power is fed into the switching terminal of the solenoid, the solenoid is switched on, allowing the power to flow between batteries. This will allow you to start from both batteries. The batteries are charged together in parallel when the solenoid is switched on. When the solenoid is switched off only the main battery will charge.

The power feed for the solenoid is normally connected to the ignition circuit, so the solenoid will, switch on and off with the ignition.

Oh, that is quite a silly set-up. I must admit I assumed that the Piranha stuff would be better than that.

This explains how opposition systems work and why they don't recommend them.

Don't know if I would call them opposition systems. Its the basic solenoid setup that's been in use for eons. The only problem with it, is that it requires diligence on the operators part at all times.

The piranha setup, like many other systems simply uses a voltage sensing setup to switch the relay instead of ignition. Problem is that people may think isolator = dumb where as you've got the redarc which is a pretty solid "smart" unit based around a solenoid.

But it raises a valid point. When he's turning on the ignition he may be draining his aux batt if its set up like that.

[stuee]

But it raises a valid point. When he's turning on the ignition he may be draining his aux batt if its set up like that.

Just realized this is the same as trying to jump from your aux battery anyway . Basically if you flatten any starting battery you've got to hook up you aux at some point to jump it.

I guess the basic system is only a pain when you flatten your aux battery and then consequently you starter when you turn the ign on. Which is opposite to the problem weeman has. He's got a flat starter and a supposedly charged aux battery.

[TRobbo]

I think there are potentially 3 issues.
The car is not driven long enough to replace the charge in one massive battery (which is what he has when they are joined in parallel by the solenoid). or
The primary battery is stuffed and not accepting/holding charge. or
He is running one battery down so much in between drives that when they are joined in parallel they become one great big flat battery.

He has told us the alternator is charging, however we do not know the state of each battery when they car has been left for a while either with or without aux power usage. If one battery is going flat between drives, then there is either something draining that battery or it is stuffed.

as you said before it would be useful to know the voltages of the batteries before and after a long drive and then after they have sat for a week or so.

[chimpboy]

This explains how opposition systems work and why they don't recommend them.

Sorry, I misunderstood that.

I am not a fan of the solenoid set-up that just links the batteries when the key is turned. To me it more or less defeats the purpose of having two batteries.

[stuee]

I think there are potentially 3 issues.
The car is not driven long enough to replace the charge in one massive battery (which is what he has when they are joined in parallel by the solenoid). or
The primary battery is stuffed and not accepting/holding charge. or
He is running one battery down so much in between drives that when they are joined in parallel they become one great big flat battery.

He has told us the alternator is charging, however we do not know the state of each battery when they car has been left for a while either with or without aux power usage. If one battery is going flat between drives, then there is either something draining that battery or it is stuffed.

as you said before it would be useful to know the voltages of the batteries before and after a long drive and then after they have sat for a week or so.

Agreed.

[Oscars]

i don't see how the couple od auto elecs u seen about it couldn't diagnose the problem. Most ppl on here prob feel with less then half hour they would have a diagnoses

[chimpboy]

i don't see how the couple od auto elecs u seen about it couldn't diagnose the problem. Most ppl on here prob feel with less then half hour they would have a diagnoses

Yeah to be honest, we are talking about a process of elimination with only a few things to eliminate!

[TRobbo]

forgot to mention that once the charging system/batteries has been eliminated as a source of the problem then you need to look for other causes such as a potentially excessive drain on the batteries by the starter motor, which possibly could be a bad earth.

[weeman]

Thanks guys for your help much appreciated im going to try a few the recommendations.

All my earths are good double checked them and they are to the chassis.

Im considering hard wiring the batteries together and bypassing the solenoid and see what happens also.

I'll keep you posted.

[TRobbo]

I believe the problem with the GU earths is due to the excesses of paint between the panels and that sometimes additional earth leads need to be run to between different parts of the vehicle. I saw something recently in trackwatch or some similiar publication but cant find it now. Alan at piranha also spoke about this problem at a recent club meeting.

I guess you can look at that once the charging/battery system is shown to be all good.

Good luck