Chinese vs ARB Locker video

[g35me]

I have front and rear ARB lockers and the rear is a constant leaker if I had my time again I wouldnt have bought them.

From my experience, the only time the air locker leaks air, is either from improper installation or that the sealing surface has a worn groove from the 'O' rings due to age. Not sure thou if the sealing surface can be sleeved to repair, someone else may be able to help out here.[/quote]

I bought them new, they were intalled and held air for hours when testing, then after 1-2 trips the compressor started to come on a little longer until eventually they didnt work at all. This was after 3 or 4 offroad trips. Then the o'rings were replaced and tested again for 4 hours with no leaks then after the second track air was leaking out of them again to the point where they didnt work. Its pretty obvious that it is a crap design its not that hard to install o rings, how can you get it wrong.

[berad]

I bought 2 awhile ago (arb lockers), 2nd hand from here, one was destroyed inside, cost me 120 dollars for a seal and washer kit, plus 4 new pinion gears and torque washers from arb they dont sell the gears seperatly now you have to buy the gear set which is sidegears also which was 400, a tooth off each pinion gear was shattered and jammed into the side gears, deeming it locked 24/7, gave the sidegears a quick cleanup to remove any burr's etc and it is perfect again.

I dont see how they leak air from improper installtion, you dont need to pull it apart to install it into the 3rd member, wack a crown wheel on it and some bearings and fit it. i found when i pulled my broken one apart it had a square 0 ring as in 4 sided haha (not a square ring), the new kit they sent me was a O ring you would imagine to find in there.

[dumbdunce]

I have front and rear ARB lockers and the rear is a constant leaker if I had my time again I wouldnt have bought them.

From my experience, the only time the air locker leaks air, is either from improper installation or that the sealing surface has a worn groove from the 'O' rings due to age. Not sure thou if the sealing surface can be sleeved to repair, someone else may be able to help out here.[/quote]


the o-rings themselves will never* wear a groove in the surface of the spigot. incorrect installation of the air housing with contact between the housing and the spigot can wear grooves. it almost always comes down to installation, and the newer "clip-on" air housing is more self aligning, slightly more idiot proof. the only other way I have seen air lockers leak is in front-axle applications which don't get used a lot, and have corrosion on the side that has sat unlubricated for extended periods. common installation faults that result in leaks include incorrect side bearing preload, routing the bundy tube too close to the crownwheel, pinching the o-rings on installation, dry assembly; other causes of failure include debris in oil from previous diff/bearing failures, dirt/water in oil from underwater excursions. there are a lot of ways to stuff up the install or kill them in service, but the hardware itself is near bulletproof.

all that said, BOTH the ARB and the chinese knock-of are QUALITY items. There are two ways to look at quality - from a customer viewpoint, an item is of decent quality if it meets the customer expectation. For the price point of the chinese locker, expectation of failure is proportionally higher. it could be argued from this that the chinese knock off is a higher quality item than the ARB since it survived to almost the failure torque of the axle. from a manufacturer viewpoint, an item is of good quality if it consistently meets its design specification. If the chinese locker manufacturer says its item is good for a certain torque, or a certain power, or a certain number of km before a failure can be expected, and it consistently meets those goals, it's doing what it is designed to do.

which locker should you buy? there are lot of variables to consider. but then you'd buy the ARB anyway, right? it's keeping Aussies in jobs for starters. you can get ALL the parts in a day or two if it ever does fail. it has a decent warranty. The market for chinese lockers is high schoolers and uni students who love to wheel but just can't afford the ticket for an ARB. If you've got a proper job and want a locker, take the bus to work for two weeks to save up the petrol money to buy a proper locker.


*by never, I mean, well, never. I have installed air lockers that are still working perfectly with over 200,000km on the original o-rings. I have removed air lockers with similar km, with barely a witness mark to show where the o-rings were running - the running surface of the o-rings themselves worn maybe .1 - .2mm. 200,000km blows away any manufacturer's warranty. The just don't fail if correctly installed.

[RUFF]

I bought them new, they were intalled and held air for hours when testing, then after 1-2 trips the compressor started to come on a little longer until eventually they didnt work at all. This was after 3 or 4 offroad trips. Then the o'rings were replaced and tested again for 4 hours with no leaks then after the second track air was leaking out of them again to the point where they didnt work. Its pretty obvious that it is a crap design its not that hard to install o rings, how can you get it wrong.

How can it be a crap design when millions of these are in use with no issues If there were issues from so many of them ARB would have been forced to do a recall. And repair the problems. I have personaly owned at least 10 ARB Air Lockers and have never had one issue with leaking. And ive prob installed at least 30 with no issues to date.

[-Scott-]

I bought them new, they were intalled and held air for hours when testing, then after 1-2 trips the compressor started to come on a little longer until eventually they didnt work at all. This was after 3 or 4 offroad trips. Then the o'rings were replaced and tested again for 4 hours with no leaks then after the second track air was leaking out of them again to the point where they didnt work. Its pretty obvious that it is a crap design its not that hard to install o rings, how can you get it wrong.

That's a very good question - how can somebody get it so wrong? How can orings sit for 4 hours on the bench without leaking, then leak once they're put in a vehicle?

Or maybe, the leak isn't inside the diff? Maybe the leak is between the compressor and the tank? Or between the tank and the solenoid? Or between the solenoid and the diff? How long will all these seals hold pressure?

[dumbdunce]

That's a very good question - how can somebody get it so wrong? How can orings sit for 4 hours on the bench without leaking, then leak once they're put in a vehicle?

actually that's pretty easy. on the bench there is no rotation and no load so even the dodgiest setup will probably hold pressure on the bench - it takes force and motion for the bits to become misaligned.

Or maybe, the leak isn't inside the diff? Maybe the leak is between the compressor and the tank? Or between the tank and the solenoid? Or between the solenoid and the diff? How long will all these seals hold pressure?

leaks in all these places are also common. it is a fair criticism of the airlocker that there are too many points of failure, making diagnosis and correction of faults difficult. the electrical system is probably the least reliable, but it either works or it doesn't, so it's not that hard to troubleshoot. the air system can tolerate some leakage, as long as the system pressure never drops below about 40psi the locker will stay engaged.

[g35me]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

[g35me]

I dont see how they leak air from improper installtion, you dont need to pull it apart to install it into the 3rd member, wack a crown wheel on it and some bearings and fit it. i found when i pulled my broken one apart it had a square 0 ring as in 4 sided haha (not a square ring), the new kit they sent me was a O ring you would imagine to find in there.

The air leaks from the o rings, nothing to do with inside the locker itself. They last for a few trips and then gradually get worse, its not that hard to oil it up and stick it in the slot

[dumbdunce]

... how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. ...

you would seriously take the time on the trail to unbuild an entire axle just to replace the o-rings on the side of your locker? remove the half axles, drain the oil, drop the tailshaft, drop the third member, replace the o-rings and put it all back together? you always carry a couple of litres of GL5 to replace the oil, and a drain pan to drop the old oil into? there is something seriously wrong with your installation or it is being seriously abused if it blows that often and you have to go to that extreme. there's no obstacle in the world that it wouldn't be quicker to road build or winch over, or drive around.

[joeblow]

I bought 2 awhile ago (arb lockers), 2nd hand from here, one was destroyed inside, cost me 120 dollars for a seal and washer kit, plus 4 new pinion gears and torque washers from arb they dont sell the gears seperatly now you have to buy the gear set which is sidegears also which was 400, a tooth off each pinion gear was shattered and jammed into the side gears, deeming it locked 24/7, gave the sidegears a quick cleanup to remove any burr's etc and it is perfect again.

I dont see how they leak air from improper installtion, you dont need to pull it apart to install it into the 3rd member, wack a crown wheel on it and some bearings and fit it. i found when i pulled my broken one apart it had a square 0 ring as in 4 sided haha (not a square ring), the new kit they sent me was a O ring you would imagine to find in there.

i have forgotten how many custom diffs i have made over the years, with various traction aids.
airlockers that have come to me with a leaking problem (that i have not fitted) have allways been a fitting issue. you make it sound so easy to install bearings, crown wheel etc, but often this is not the case. most times its people not taking the time to square up the seal housing on early models. a lot of other cases have involved bearings no being seated properly, than after a few trips they (bearings) move causing the diff to leak. other cases have involved incorrect pre-load.

these are just my veiws but as a person who deals with custom diffs its my experiance that not everyone should be atempting these installs whitout a good workshop, tools and great experience with diffs.

oh.....and myself and my customers DO NOT carry spare o-rings. our diffs are fitted correctly and this situation has never happened.

[ajsr]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

what a load of bullshit!
I'd Pay to see you change the oring on the side of a track.
you tool!

[Jeeps]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

what a load of bullshit!
I'd Pay to see you change the oring on the side of a track.
you tool!

Maaaaaaate. He's got a toyota, he can do anything don't ya know those yoda boys are okka tuff He probably just needs to walk 5 feet into the bush to find a whole replacement diff that someone dumped just lying there anyway...

I've got ARB air lockers. No issues with them

[brad-chevlux]

after seeing that, i'd consider putting one in the front diff.

the front diff does bugger all kms and the CVs will probably break first.
Price VS: life 'MIGHT' work out to be good enough.


besides, that was just a tad bias, What exactly is the failure point of the arb locker.

and have ARB done a bench test of the TJM locker

[-Scott-]

and have ARB done a bench test of the TJM locker

Does the TJM locker sell for half the price of the ARB locker?

[brad-chevlux]

and have ARB done a bench test of the TJM locker

Does the TJM locker sell for half the price of the ARB locker?

All the more reason to test it.

I can't afford an ARB or TJM locker. I was going to just save for the next 12 months to get one.
But after seeing that i'm really thinking about the cheaper option. ARB have potentially just lost my purchase.
Had that have been a test between the ARB and TJM product it would have just swayed my mind either way..

I'd say that would be the case for a lot people

All they have done is prove the china locker is stronger then people ever gave it credit for.

[g35me]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

what a load of bullshit!
I'd Pay to see you change the oring on the side of a track.
you tool!

Lets put this into perspective. I never said on the side of the track. However if you are away for the weekend and get back to camp and are just sitting around after driving all day its not that hard to pull a full floating rear axle apart on a landcruiser. And obviously it is still driving so if you have access to oil it is not a problem at all. Its about the same amount of work as replacing a CV and how many have done that in the bush. I went out to a club trip about 3 months ago and this exact same situation happened and that is what I am basing this whole disussion on so I really dont appreciate being called a tool as this is a non issue.

[Dozoor]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

what a load of bullshit!
I'd Pay to see you change the oring on the side of a track.
you tool!

Rebuilding a diff on the side of the track happens all the time if you carnt do it you should learn.



The side gear finish on the chinese ones reminds me of the later single pin zook side gears ,
they have the same course non finished apperance.

[joeblow]

The side gear finish on the chinese ones reminds me of the later single pin zook side gears ,
they have the same course non finished apperance.

suzuki webbed side gears? and on the drive surfaces?........i have boxes of them here and they look nothing like those chinese ones.

[nastytroll]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

what a load of bullshit!
I'd Pay to see you change the oring on the side of a track.
you tool!

I'm not goin to start throwing stones but you should start going to some hard core comps to see what can be done in the camp site dirt.

I have seen pinions and axles welded back together and finish comps out. Trailing and radius arms welded, chassis end sspension mounts repaired. Engines re-built, clutches replaced and gearboxes replaced.

Go back to early XRCC days and Sam Keck joined 2 short rear axles to make a long and competed the rest of the week end with no diff oil.

Big red drove a fully loaded gu ute towing trailer home from carnage canyon with the middle 3rd of a radius arm missing, only chain and winch hold the diff.

Never say never.

[bowtie landie]

Doesn't ARB supply a Purge Valve to dump the oil / oil vapour that does get past the o-rings.

I think this Purge Valve also supplies a couple of psi of air to the actuator when the locker is not engaged (not enough to activate it) to assist the sealing of the o-rings.

I believe a number of ARB stores fit these Purge Valves to the rear lockers in 4WDs and to the front lockers in constant 4WDs as part of their installation - although this was may have been for the older 'round o-ring' type locker.

[mule75]

Maybe its time to ask how many people have fitted or have had someone fit ARB lockers and then had the O rings leak. Nearly everyone I speak to has had them leak from the O ring at one time or another, how many people carry a set of o rings in their repair kits when they head for the tracks? I do. Why do you think ARB went from a round O ring to a square one. And yet deny any problems.

i have had arb's f+r for a few years now with no o ring probs what so ever. the only prob i've had was when i had water get through and contaminate the oil which at the end of the trip damaged the plastic piston inside the locker, obviously not an arb fault.

the finish on those side gears in the chinese lockers looked terrible. surely once it had done 10,000kms+ they would be flogged.

arb lockers aren't that expensive when you look at what the rest of your truck costs to build.

[bigbluemav]

and have ARB done a bench test of the TJM locker

Does the TJM locker sell for half the price of the ARB locker?

All the more reason to test it.

I can't afford an ARB or TJM locker. I was going to just save for the next 12 months to get one.
But after seeing that i'm really thinking about the cheaper option. ARB have potentially just lost my purchase.
Had that have been a test between the ARB and TJM product it would have just swayed my mind either way..

I'd say that would be the case for a lot people

All they have done is prove the china locker is stronger then people ever gave it credit for.

That is a really good point!! I think most of us go out an really give our cars a thrashing once every few weeks and to save $400 on a (front) ARB air locker isn't a bad idea. If you combined that saving with (any?) saving on an auto locker (Lock-Rite or Detroit) in the rear, its quite a bit of change out the $2200+ for a pair of ARB air lockers.

I had two ARB's in the old Mav', and the 4.6's cos' I happen to thave the $$ at the time.

Does anyone have a firm price on lock rites or detroits for a GQ/GU? I swear to God when I looked into 3-4 years ago they were both CLOSE to the price of the Air Lockers, that's PART of the reason that I went that route.

Are they cheaper now? If so, how much and from where?

[Dozoor]

The side gear finish on the chinese ones reminds me of the later single pin zook side gears ,
they have the same course non finished apperance.

suzuki webbed side gears? and on the drive surfaces?........i have boxes of them here and they look nothing like those chinese ones.

On the vitara single pins i have struck the same unmachined , speckled
look surfaces,

The surface finish not the actual gear.

[ferrit]

the air lockers in my lux are around 18yrs old- they are the ORIGINAL design for the LN85/LN106 diffs.

I bought them second hand, and have had the rear diff rebuilt- due to a dodgy installer (im about the 3rd owner at a guess) on the previous owner- didnt locktite the Crownwheel to locker bolts and they backed out

the diff rebuilder who looked at it pulled it all apart and inspected it- this lockers had a diff blow up around it at least once before (only way the diff cases could get that gouged)

He ended up having to machine a new piston from Polyurethane because ARB didnt make them any more, and my old metal one was warped, and we ended up machining the o-ring surfaces to accept Auto Trans o-rings, as ARB didnt make them to suit that end carrier any more! They never were leaking, but why would you put potentially 18yr old seals back in?

[KiwiBacon]

Actual torque getting to a single wheel can be easily twice that depending on your setups .

For instance even a 1.3 suzuki with series 3 gearing ,
Around 70 ft lb x 3.652 first x 6.1 low range x 3.9 final = 6423 ft lb

jump up to say my Grand chero ,

4.7 v8 300ftlb x 3.1 first x1.5 auto converter X 2.72 low range x around 3.9 final = 14,796 ft lb.

BANG !!!

Nope, your wheel will need to be welded to the earth to take that much torque.
In reality torque to the wheels is limited by traction.

Even the extreme case of a 35" wheel with 2 ton of weight on it on dry tarmac (friction 0.8) gives a max of about 7000Nm. This is a severely exaggerated load (noone has 2 ton on a single wheel).

7000Nm is 5160 Ft-lbs.

More likely scenario.
33" wheel, 1000kg downforce, traction 0.7
Axle torque is limited to 4350Nm (3210 Ft-lbs).

So yes those chinese lockers are more than sufficient.

[coxy321]

the air lockers in my lux are around 18yrs old- they are the ORIGINAL design for the LN85/LN106 diffs.

I bought them second hand, and have had the rear diff rebuilt- due to a dodgy installer (im about the 3rd owner at a guess) on the previous owner- didnt locktite the Crownwheel to locker bolts and they backed out

the diff rebuilder who looked at it pulled it all apart and inspected it- this lockers had a diff blow up around it at least once before (only way the diff cases could get that gouged)

Must be a hilux thing. One of my mates went through 4 rear rebuilds due to various stuff-ups by tradesmen. Every time it was the crownwheel bolts that backed out.

[chimpboy]

More likely scenario.
33" wheel, 1000kg downforce, traction 0.7
Axle torque is limited to 4350Nm (3210 Ft-lbs).

In those conditions the vehicle would be moving along, too, wouldn't it?

I mean, the conditions where you have truly massive torque on the axle but you're not actually being driven forward by the wheels would be pretty unusual. And if you are being driven forward then most of the stress goes away. No?

[KiwiBacon]

More likely scenario.
33" wheel, 1000kg downforce, traction 0.7
Axle torque is limited to 4350Nm (3210 Ft-lbs).

In those conditions the vehicle would be moving along, too, wouldn't it?

I mean, the conditions where you have truly massive torque on the axle but you're not actually being driven forward by the wheels would be pretty unusual. And if you are being driven forward then most of the stress goes away. No?

Yes.
Alas, the leading cause of breakage is driving like a muppet. A little thought reduces the stress on everything considerably.

[ISUZUROVER]

More likely scenario.
33" wheel, 1000kg downforce, traction 0.7
Axle torque is limited to 4350Nm (3210 Ft-lbs).

In those conditions the vehicle would be moving along, too, wouldn't it?

I mean, the conditions where you have truly massive torque on the axle but you're not actually being driven forward by the wheels would be pretty unusual. And if you are being driven forward then most of the stress goes away. No?

Yes.
Alas, the leading cause of breakage is driving like a muppet. A little thought reduces the stress on everything considerably.

As you said, driving like a muppet... That 1000kg could easily be doubled for a vehicle front or rear end crashing back to earth hard - while spinning...

Many rock crawling scenarios see a wheel wedged in a v-shaped crevice. very high torque loads are possible...

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

More likely scenario.
33" wheel, 1000kg downforce, traction 0.7
Axle torque is limited to 4350Nm (3210 Ft-lbs).

In those conditions the vehicle would be moving along, too, wouldn't it?

I mean, the conditions where you have truly massive torque on the axle but you're not actually being driven forward by the wheels would be pretty unusual. And if you are being driven forward then most of the stress goes away. No?

If you are moving the power is different, but torque is the same.
Power is Torque x Speed. No speed = no power, but plenty of torque.

People often ask "how much power can X handle". They really mean how much torque.
Most drive systems fail from overtorque, not overpower. Overpower will give heat related failures.

With the crashign down to earth, that would increase both the weight and possibly the traction available at the wheel, BUT, it's momentary. The spring in the driveline may adsorb a lot of it, reducing peak torque significantly. You can see the amount of axle twist in the video.

Kiwibacon is right too - if you run the vid in HD mode, full screen, when the show the axle after the chinese failure - that axle is STUFFED, permananly twisted, plastic deformation, torqued past it's elastic limit etc. I reckon that chinese locker is probably stronger than my OEM diffs.

Paul