Chinese vs ARB Locker video

[Micka]

Can we please make this thread a sticky cause there is some funny, pathetic, idiotic shit contained in these 5 pages?

Who wouldn't want a cheap, totally inferior locker that can't outlast a standard axel?

Me.

Did you not watch the video?
The cheap locker did outlast the axle they tested it with, check out the twisted splines.

That axle is toast, yes the locker broke too but it killed the axle first.

Are you serious? How can you possibly attest to even the idea of what broke first? Do you have some special kind of SuperMan-like x-ray vision that can see into solid metal, even when its on a you-tube video? You're obviously an intelligent guy, but c'mon...the Chinese locker is totalled and the axel splines are slightly twisted. That is a standard Toyota axel. Daisy(Tom) on this forum used to break those at will in his moon buggy with ARBs.

I have personally used an axel with far more twist in the splines than that for a year's worth of Rock Crawling comps, and as far as I know, that same axel is still going in the same buggy. And that is a chromo axel from McNamara. ARB was like new.

At the end of the day, IMHO, it all comes down to experience. Do you want the experience of breaking an axel and stil being able to drive home and only have to replace an axel? Or does pulling the entire diff down on the side of a trail and having to relace axels, the locker cause it failed hopelessly and probably the CW&P sound better?

Axels are far cheaper than a new locker, installation, axels and possibly a CW&P.

Each to their own.

[Jeeps]

I wouldn't own a locker that doesn't go "PSST!" when you deactivate them. That's the best bit. Plus it confuses ricers

[KiwiBacon]

Are you serious? How can you possibly attest to even the idea of what broke first? Do you have some special kind of SuperMan-like x-ray vision that can see into solid metal, even when its on a you-tube video? You're obviously an intelligent guy, but c'mon...the Chinese locker is totalled and the axel splines are slightly twisted. That is a standard Toyota axel. Daisy(Tom) on this forum used to break those at will in his moon buggy with ARBs.

Some basics for how metal breaks.
You can do a single overload, which results in twisting or stretching.
You can then keep increasing the load until the part (in this case the axle) twists apart either gradually or suddenly.

But very few parts break in a single event, most are fatigue. Here's how fatigue works.
A small region of the part starts to stretch or twist at a load much lower than the single twist to failure above. As that region stretches, it work hardens. After a few cycles of doing this a small crack develops on the surface.
That crack grows with each cycle until it grows big enough that the remaining metal fractures quickly.

This is how axles break and they do it at loads well below the single twist seen in that video.
So while single twists to failure are exciting to watch, they mean next to nothing when comparing how long a part will last in service.

I have personally used an axel with far more twist in the splines than that for a year's worth of Rock Crawling comps, and as far as I know, that same axel is still going in the same buggy. And that is a chromo axel from McNamara. ARB was like new.

Can you tell us what model the axle and arb were? Obviously it hadn't twisted badly enough to make it impossible to remove and refit.

Bottom line for me, that video shows the cheap locker taking roughly 4 times the load that my vehicle would put on it. For me it's an extremely positive result. What used to be an untested product has just been tested and confirmed suitable.

[joeblow]

Can we please make this thread a sticky cause there is some funny, pathetic, idiotic shit contained in these 5 pages?

Who wouldn't want a cheap, totally inferior locker that can't outlast a standard axel?

Me.

Did you not watch the video?
The cheap locker did outlast the axle they tested it with, check out the twisted splines.

That axle is toast, yes the locker broke too but it killed the axle first.

ummm....yeah...it killed the axle first....

i've seen many a vehicle drive on splines like that....and i wouldn't even call that seriously twisted. i've broke axles before, and twisted splines, which in itself is a pain in the arse but those components are relatively cheap. to be dealt the double blow of the cheap locker failing would be an extra kick in the balls too, something i won't take the chance with off road. i have the workshop and abilaty to re build diffs etc, but your average joe doesn't and would have to pay someone for the reapairs. you can see how saving a few dollars may actually increase in the future. so no kiwi.......i don't agree the axle outlasted the cheap locker.

[Skegbudley]

Another theroy.
They tested the lockers with Toyota axles which are known to break just by sneezing whilst releasing the clutch. (same as the CVs)
Retry the test with some GU Patrol axles and see what happens.

[thehanko]

Another theroy.
They tested the lockers with Toyota axles which are known to break just by sneezing whilst releasing the clutch. (same as the CVs)
Retry the test with some GU Patrol axles and see what happens.

I think this is a good idea. arb said they wanted to compare the lockers using everything else stock. which is fair.

but i think they have done themselves a disservice by not doing it on a stronger stock set up and showing just how inferior the chinese one is.

Me thinks the arb would still snap the axel but the chinese would snap at the approximate same point and look far less suitable.

I agree that both failed in the chinese one and that that is not cool. I for one would never want to put a weaker link in my driveline. kind of seems like a down grade rather than an upgrade. I never want to be driving and thinking hmmm will it survive this next step?

Most people who need a locker will endup getting themselves into a situation where they end up bouncing or slipping and sliding back onto firm traction. if you drive quite relaxed stuff then you probably dont need the locker in the first place.

but its your money so buy what you will.

[GRIMACE]

Another theroy.
They tested the lockers with Toyota axles which are known to break just by sneezing whilst releasing the clutch. (same as the CVs)
Retry the test with some GU Patrol axles and see what happens.

yeah cause GU patrol axles are the tuff!

Some basics for how metal breaks.
You can do a single overload, which results in twisting or stretching.
You can then keep increasing the load until the part (in this case the axle) twists apart either gradually or suddenly.

But very few parts break in a single event, most are fatigue. Here's how fatigue works.
A small region of the part starts to stretch or twist at a load much lower than the single twist to failure above. As that region stretches, it work hardens. After a few cycles of doing this a small crack develops on the surface.
That crack grows with each cycle until it grows big enough that the remaining metal fractures quickly.

This is how axles break and they do it at loads well below the single twist seen in that video.
So while single twists to failure are exciting to watch, they mean next to nothing when comparing how long a part will last in service.

Thats a very nice story Kiwi, I might read it to the kids at bedtime.

If anyone is interested I am toying with the idea of makin my own locking centre out of paper mache, it will be atleast half the cost of the chinese locker so its a good option for those on a super budget!

[flexytj]

wow lockers from paper mache would be awsome i can not wait to load my junk with cheap inferior crap .

the paper mache locker would have to be better than arb .


did you know that tests on products like the one in the video are all propaganda just there to scare us into spending more money and have no valid ressembalance of the truth what so ever

[brad-chevlux]

Can we please make this thread a sticky cause there is some funny, pathetic, idiotic shit contained in these 5 pages?

Who wouldn't want a cheap, totally inferior locker that can't outlast a standard axel?

Me.

some one that
A: can't afford the over priced ARB or TJM product.
B: doesn't drive hard enough to twist an axle. there for, will not put enough load on the china locker to break it.
C: is willing to give the cheaper option a chance.
D: doesn't need a service life of 5years plus.


You do need to ask though, why did arb not test it's own locker to destruction with a stonger axle. is the margin of strength that close?

What makes you think that they did not test it to failure during the design and engineering of it?

I'm not sure why the conspiracy theory needs to be raised here. The ARB locker has been around for a few decades now...let me repeat.. A FEW DECADES. They are the most common locker in TUFF TRUCK. They were the most common locker in WE Rock Australia. They are exceptionally common in the States in WE Rock, King of the Hammers, Rock Racing. In these 3 examples the vast and overwhelming majority of competitors use aftermakret axels in combination with ARB lockers and the ARBs rarely fail. I have seen Longfield 30 spline CVs and axels break and the ARB did not.

my point is they didn't show in the video at what point the arb locker will fail.

i totaly agree the ARB locker is good. and that you would be rooster to use the china locker in any form of comp rig, or anywhere that you personally break axles or would be worried about breaking one.

the thing is, you need to look past your own driveway. there are plenty of people that would get acceptable service out of the china locker.

If the part is not up to YOUR driving style and the tracks YOU drive, don't buy the part.
just don't jump up and down like bunch whining ARB staff when someone els thinks that same part would be strong enough for they tracks and driving style that they use.

[ferrit]

i'd like to know how long the chinese locker is servicible for- will the piston wear and leak within 1000 actutations? Will the steel used in the pins for the side gears wear? How long will the thrust washers last for?

[Micka]

Can we please make this thread a sticky cause there is some funny, pathetic, idiotic shit contained in these 5 pages?

Who wouldn't want a cheap, totally inferior locker that can't outlast a standard axel?

Me.

some one that
A: can't afford the over priced ARB or TJM product.
B: doesn't drive hard enough to twist an axle. there for, will not put enough load on the china locker to break it.
C: is willing to give the cheaper option a chance.
D: doesn't need a service life of 5years plus.


You do need to ask though, why did arb not test it's own locker to destruction with a stonger axle. is the margin of strength that close?

What makes you think that they did not test it to failure during the design and engineering of it?

I'm not sure why the conspiracy theory needs to be raised here. The ARB locker has been around for a few decades now...let me repeat.. A FEW DECADES. They are the most common locker in TUFF TRUCK. They were the most common locker in WE Rock Australia. They are exceptionally common in the States in WE Rock, King of the Hammers, Rock Racing. In these 3 examples the vast and overwhelming majority of competitors use aftermakret axels in combination with ARB lockers and the ARBs rarely fail. I have seen Longfield 30 spline CVs and axels break and the ARB did not.

my point is they didn't show in the video at what point the arb locker will fail.

i totaly agree the ARB locker is good. and that you would be rooster to use the china locker in any form of comp rig, or anywhere that you personally break axles or would be worried about breaking one.

the thing is, you need to look past your own driveway. there are plenty of people that would get acceptable service out of the china locker.

If the part is not up to YOUR driving style and the tracks YOU drive, don't buy the part.
just don't jump up and down like bunch whining ARB staff when someone els thinks that same part would be strong enough for they tracks and driving style that they use.

I'm definitely not an ARB staff member

As for the other points you've made, I agree that I am clouding my responses with my own experiences and those of others that I have witnessed. I did specify that I would not buy one and at no stage did I say that no-one should.

I did specifically say 'each to their own' which in layman's terms means I don't really care what anyone else buys, but I'm putting strong shit in my rig.

Obviously there is a market for cheaper products, and in a perfect world there'd be no fat chicks on the beach, but for me personally, I'd spend the extra coin and be sound in the knowlege that the diff centre under my 4b isn't going to implode any time soon.

[Dozoor]

KiwiBacon,

Im just a truck driver ,so you really need to humour Me

Lets change some figures and add a few more variables .

If you could do the maths i would appreciate it .

What we,ve seen is a toyota axle , there a reasonably strong axle for the size of vehicle there found in. Im only guessing but probly around 2500kg
packed up with a few bods and weekend camp gear.

Lets try somthing with a bit less size in its axles yet around the same wieght . Say a discovery wieghs probly the same loaded up .
We should use there bigest spline count .


Figures would be 2500kg
Axle would be 24 spline around 3,700 ft lb would be 42% weaker then the toyota unit.
Please use the tire slip ratio calc for a 33" tire.

Now this is where you need to humour me.
We,ve increased the cog by loading the vehicle up yes ?
Now this means when where working our way up a steep bit. The front can get real light , managing to get most of the weight on the rear.

Now i would like you to divide the total weight on the rear 40% to the left and 60% to the right,for the traction calculations, to allow for torque twist
this aparently gets more bias as tire size increases.

Thanks in advance

Larry.

[KiwiBacon]

KiwiBacon,

Im just a truck driver ,so you really need to humour Me

Lets change some figures and add a few more variables .

If you could do the maths i would appreciate it .

What we,ve seen is a toyota axle , there a reasonably strong axle for the size of vehicle there found in. Im only guessing but probly around 2500kg
packed up with a few bods and weekend camp gear.

Lets try somthing with a bit less size in its axles yet around the same wieght . Say a discovery wieghs probly the same loaded up .
We should use there bigest spline count .


Figures would be 2500kg
Axle would be 24 spline around 3,700 ft lb would be 42% weaker then the toyota unit.
Please use the tire slip ratio calc for a 33" tire.

Now this is where you need to humour me.
We,ve increased the cog by loading the vehicle up yes ?
Now this means when where working our way up a steep bit. The front can get real light , managing to get most of the weight on the rear.

Now i would like you to divide the total weight on the rear 40% to the left and 60% to the right,for the traction calculations, to allow for torque twist
this aparently gets more bias as tire size increases.

Thanks in advance

Larry.

So you want a 33" tyre with 60% of the weight of a 2500kg vehicle on it?
That's 1.5 ton on the most loaded wheel and 1 ton on the other.

A typical rear spring rate on a disco is 240lb/in, so we've got the rear end completely bottomed out on both sides with one side taking 1500kg and the other 1000kg.

If we're on a slope at 40 deg then it takes 1.6 ton of traction to drive the 2.5 ton vehicle forwards.
You need friction of at least 0.64 which implies you're on dry rock.

The max torque on the 60% side is
Torque = downforce*friction*radius
downforce = 60% of 2.5 ton.
=2500*0.6*9.81*0.64*0.42
= 3955 Nm

3955Nm is 2920 Ft-lb. Roughly 2/3 of what the axle can take once.
This is still 3 times less than the breaking load of the chinese locker arb tested in their video.

So once again, the lockers are plenty strong enough.

[cooki_monsta]

yea but thats on paper kiwi (or in simulated test areas) what i want to see is a no nonsense no bullshit video, of how long they last out on the tracks, i couldnt give a stuff on the test bench

[KiwiBacon]

yea but thats on paper kiwi (or in simulated test areas) what i want to see is a no nonsense no bullshit video, of how long they last out on the tracks, i couldnt give a stuff on the test bench

You're not going to get a video like that. The only people who are going to take the time to follow trucks around with a camera waiting for stuff to break are those with a vested interest either way. They'll be there to either prove they can break it or prove they can't.

Much like the video that started this thread.

You don't trust numbers, you don't trust test benches and you think you'll get a good repeatable test in the bush? Good luck with that.

[joeblow]

bought one yet kiwi?

[cooki_monsta]

no such thing as a repeatable test in the bush, its a continuous test in the bush. i just want to know how quickly it fatigues. if its way too soft (which it appears by arbs video) then it should fatigue quickly, far outweighing any saving offered by purchasing it in the first place.

just my 2c

[Dozoor]

KiwiBacon,

Im just a truck driver ,so you really need to humour Me

Lets change some figures and add a few more variables .

If you could do the maths i would appreciate it .

What we,ve seen is a toyota axle , there a reasonably strong axle for the size of vehicle there found in. Im only guessing but probly around 2500kg
packed up with a few bods and weekend camp gear.

Lets try somthing with a bit less size in its axles yet around the same wieght . Say a discovery wieghs probly the same loaded up .
We should use there bigest spline count .


Figures would be 2500kg
Axle would be 24 spline around 3,700 ft lb would be 42% weaker then the toyota unit.
Please use the tire slip ratio calc for a 33" tire.

Now this is where you need to humour me.
We,ve increased the cog by loading the vehicle up yes ?
Now this means when where working our way up a steep bit. The front can get real light , managing to get most of the weight on the rear.

Now i would like you to divide the total weight on the rear 40% to the left and 60% to the right,for the traction calculations, to allow for torque twist
this aparently gets more bias as tire size increases.

Thanks in advance

Larry.

So you want a 33" tyre with 60% of the weight of a 2500kg vehicle on it?
That's 1.5 ton on the most loaded wheel and 1 ton on the other.

A typical rear spring rate on a disco is 240lb/in, so we've got the rear end completely bottomed out on both sides with one side taking 1500kg and the other 1000kg.

If we're on a slope at 40 deg then it takes 1.6 ton of traction to drive the 2.5 ton vehicle forwards.
You need friction of at least 0.64 which implies you're on dry rock.

The max torque on the 60% side is
Torque = downforce*friction*radius
downforce = 60% of 2.5 ton.
=2500*0.6*9.81*0.64*0.42
= 3955 Nm

3955Nm is 2920 Ft-lb. Roughly 2/3 of what the axle can take once.
This is still 3 times less than the breaking load of the chinese locker arb tested in their video.

So once again, the lockers are plenty strong enough.

Thanks.

I m a bit sad i havn,t been able to brake an axle on paper yet.
Im sure i could break a ten spline , but thats no real mean feat ive heard of them braking on the driveway.

Can only think of one more possability without as somone stated before driving like a muppet . Porpiousing - hopping similer to axle hop but seems to be caused by a low fequency type of vibration -
observing it, it seems to occur within the running gear and the tire in its deflated state, its a mix of axle twist and tire twist and rubber mounts ect - twist that loads up and lets go , if the throttles left open it will biuld in intensity and become quiet chaotic . Any explaination for this ?
of course this adds quite a large change to the slip calcs.

Larry.

[thehanko]

Based on some of the logik put forward here saying they are strong enough, it could be suitable for less agressive drivers. however I would want to see a durability test based on in vehicle testing for say 50, 000 km minimum to ensure it didnt wear itself out or fail from repettitive stress of lower levels before I would want to get stuck out in the bush without drive to my rear wheels.

But again i go back to my previous thought that if you dont drive anywhere where you might put that much load on a wheel where you might break it then why do you need a locker?

I chose 50000km as this is my yearly travel in my ute and I would expect it should last several years normal driving minimum before it is even worth considering.

[KiwiBacon]

bought one yet kiwi?

They don't do a landrover model.

Doozer, there is very little difference in strength (single twist like the video shows) between 10 spline and 24 spline axles. The 24 spline diffs have stronger spider gears but even the 10 spline can light up 29" wheels under a 2.5t vehicle on dry tarmac without breaking.
Just another internet story blown out of proportion really.


Cooki, it's not soft, the test shows it breaking with a loud bang.
If you want to test the fatigue strength of it (thousands of cycles), then a test rig is the only way. Shame you don't trust those.


Hanko, why do you equate not breaking axles with not needing lockers? Usually you need lockers because you're having problems with individual wheels spinning (often because they're in the air).
A 50,000km test by itself is a little pointless. It'd have to be a complete reject to not handle 50,000km of normal driving.
How about subjecting one to 4000Nm for 50,000 cycles instead? Oh wait, we're back to the test rigs that no-one likes.

There are some marketers dream clients in this thread.

[Micka]

bought one yet kiwi?

There are some marketers dream clients in this thread.

And there are those who wheel around on 29" tyres with little or no intention of driving harder lines in trucks with bigger tyres and more horse power.


Different dreams for different marketers.

[KiwiBacon]

And there are those who wheel around on 29" tyres with little or no intention of driving harder lines in trucks with bigger tyres and more horse power.


Different dreams for different marketers.

There are those who consider 33's, dual lockers and a winch the minimum for the modern supermarket car park. Imagine the street cred they'd lose by installing a chinese locker.

But for the rest of us, it's an option.

[thehanko]

Hanko, why do you equate not breaking axles with not needing lockers? Usually you need lockers because you're having problems with individual wheels spinning (often because they're in the air).
A 50,000km test by itself is a little pointless. It'd have to be a complete reject to not handle 50,000km of normal driving.

I guess my point was that if your doing general touring where the lines are a little easier and you dont find yourself bouncing, lifting wheels etc trying to get up tougher tracks then you can probably get by without a locker by trying a different line which is likely no to lift wheels as much on the easier tracks.

as with always this is a generalisation.

I see the long term test in a car as ultra important, be it 50,000 ks or more but with driving offroad as well. eg chinese winches shread themselves to bits, before i put one in my diff i would want to know it should work well for a decent length of time. and the fact that it might break before my axel and really stuff up a day or weekend or holiday to me isnt worth it.

[KiwiBacon]

I guess my point was that if your doing general touring where the lines are a little easier and you dont find yourself bouncing, lifting wheels etc trying to get up tougher tracks then you can probably get by without a locker by trying a different line which is likely no to lift wheels as much on the easier tracks.

I see it the other way, often there is not much scope for other lines and a locker can get you through more quietly without the speed which is otherwise necessary.
Basically a locker means you can get through without having to bash the crap out of your vehicle.

[nottie]

Anyway the crap aside.
ARB Has released (unsure when) there new generation of air locker
Aparently the locking mechanism is on the crownwheel side so it doesnt have to move as far to engage. It also allows the pins to be some 20% larger. And yes the price is larger. $100 / $150 for the new one. Depends on where you get it from and the deal you do.
I would hands down buy an ARB and wouldnt spend the coin on a chinese one. Really the money an ARB costs over the confidance youll have that it wont fail is a better feeling then wondering if you are driving to hard and your cheap locker will decide to cost you alot more money.
I do think that ARB shouldnt have done the vid and let the chinese one destroy itself out of the market. Sorry bout the PUN.

[nastytroll]

I guess my point was that if your doing general touring where the lines are a little easier and you dont find yourself bouncing, lifting wheels etc trying to get up tougher tracks then you can probably get by without a locker by trying a different line which is likely no to lift wheels as much on the easier tracks.

I see it the other way, often there is not much scope for other lines and a locker can get you through more quietly without the speed which is otherwise necessary.
Basically a locker means you can get through without having to bash the crap out of your vehicle.

I would not fit a china locker to my cars but I run 37's, I would fit them to my dads or brothers gq fronts however. They run 31's and 33's and the lockers are stronger then the cv's according to 1madengineer and the traction available on their tyres is less then the breaking point of the china locker as calculated by Kiwibacon.

I don't know If I would feel confinate fitting one to the rear, but fitted in the front of a part time 4x4 diff that may travel 20km per year, cannot see any issues with component life.

$1500 locker would be unrealistic for someone like them, but $700 maybe? I can't see these lockers being any weaker then a 4wd systems Lokka, but these are still selectable.

Like Kiwi says in the quote, the low speed control gained by the locker removes the abuse needed at times when unlocked.

[thehanko]

I guess my point was that if your doing general touring where the lines are a little easier and you dont find yourself bouncing, lifting wheels etc trying to get up tougher tracks then you can probably get by without a locker by trying a different line which is likely no to lift wheels as much on the easier tracks.

I see it the other way, often there is not much scope for other lines and a locker can get you through more quietly without the speed which is otherwise necessary.
Basically a locker means you can get through without having to bash the crap out of your vehicle.

I do agree with the benefit of a locker. no doubt.

I also agree that the front is amore likely place to try one of these. but despite the calculations saying you cant break axels on paper it does happen in the bush even in the front when backing out of obsticals. as a result I would not risk the damage and hassle of a blown center.

but each to their own and your right, if people tend to drive stuff where a locker is useful but they are not likely to get themselves into a situation where they will load it up that much then it could well work.

I will be really interested to see how they go over the next 12 months, but to date have still only seen one person who has bought one for us to hear from.

[KiwiBacon]

I also agree that the front is amore likely place to try one of these. but despite the calculations saying you cant break axels on paper it does happen in the bush even in the front when backing out of obsticals. as a result I would not risk the damage and hassle of a blown center.

The testing was done on a diff centre section, the crown wheel and pinion may still be the weak point. So blowing a diff is still a possibility no matter which core you're running.

The calculations don't say you can't break axles, the calculations show you don't have to break axles.
Some people could break an anvil, others break nothing.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

one would never want to put a weaker link in my driveline. kind of seems like a down grade rather than an upgrade.

I have never heard of a stock toyota diff (inc CW&P) twisting a toyota axle.

So this is stronger than the factory diff - that's an upgrade in my book.

But hey - mine's only a tourer w/ 33's. I'm degreasing the corner of the engine bay again for the oil sprayed from my genuine ARB system, both diffs of which were REFITTED by ARB themselves. Yes, they ARB's are strong, no argument, but they are far far from ideal. Seeing as it's all compromises (unless it's a torsen combined with trac control - no compromise there), the chinese one gets my vote.

But hey - I still like the 4wd Systems Lokka :)

Paul

[RUFF]

I think some of you guys are missing the fact that they do not show at what point this Chinese locker became deformed beyond use. They only showed the end result. And that was total failure of the Locker. Where as the ARB was still in what appears to be perfect usable condition after the broken axle was removed. If the stock toyota axle twisted as much as it did before the locker failed imagine how much earlier on the locker started to deform before exploding.


And i notice some of you wanting to know at what point the ARB locker would fail. I doubt they have found an axle strong enough to show this. I have snapped multiple High End Alloy 30 spline rear axles and also broken many 30 spline Longfield CVs with Zero ARB failures due to these breakages.

I have broken 3 Hilux ARB lockers over the years and all were from engaging the locker when one wheel was spinning at high revs. Once mid way through a Burnout Comp at Powercruise

I would imagine that locker would be damaged beyond use after the first Stock CV was broken. The shock load will kill it just like a Lockright explodes the pins 9/10 times when shockloaded from CV breakages.