Chinese vs ARB Locker video

[Dozoor]

bought one yet kiwi?

They don't do a landrover model.

Doozer, there is very little difference in strength (single twist like the video shows) between 10 spline and 24 spline axles. The 24 spline diffs have stronger spider gears but even the 10 spline can light up 29" wheels under a 2.5t vehicle on dry tarmac without breaking.
Just another internet story blown out of proportion really.


Cooki, it's not soft, the test shows it breaking with a loud bang.
If you want to test the fatigue strength of it (thousands of cycles), then a test rig is the only way. Shame you don't trust those.


Hanko, why do you equate not breaking axles with not needing lockers? Usually you need lockers because you're having problems with individual wheels spinning (often because they're in the air).
A 50,000km test by itself is a little pointless. It'd have to be a complete reject to not handle 50,000km of normal driving.
How about subjecting one to 4000Nm for 50,000 cycles instead? Oh wait, we're back to the test rigs that no-one likes.

There are some marketers dream clients in this thread.

All in all its been a good thread and im glad to see most people have kept control of there key boards

Its cemented my belief that the generic slip calculations Have absolutely
no place in MY world of 4 wheeldriving , and trying to argue the the fact is a bit like talking to a christian about Darwins theory.

On the Rover Axles Kiwi, the 24spline is around 1.24" compared to 1.11"
for the ten spline , possibly 40% weaker again, the closest match size wise is the suzuki sierra at 1.09" and 26 spline if my memorys right.
I imagine a zook axle even though smaller would out live the heaps of rr ten splines iv seen snapped off at the splines.

The locker presented in the vid showed a weakness in the side gears
unless they focus on the area a reduction in spline count and size to
side gear to make more models covered would probly only show the same results .

IMO There is honestly no gain to be achieved by increaseing the ability of your four wheel drive and decreasing its reliability in the same move.
You will get into trouble earlyer and get towed home.

[joeblow]

bought one yet kiwi?

They don't do a landrover model.

ahhha...........landrover.......










it all makes sense now

[KiwiBacon]

On the Rover Axles Kiwi, the 24spline is around 1.24" compared to 1.11"
for the ten spline , possibly 40% weaker again, the closest match size wise is the suzuki sierra at 1.09" and 26 spline if my memorys right.
I imagine a zook axle even though smaller would out live the heaps of rr ten splines iv seen snapped off at the splines.

I have had both 10 spline and 24 spline, I'm well aware of the differences between them. The main diameters are the same, the 24 spline has a bigger diameter at the spline.
While the 24 spline has better geometry to resist fatigue, but in a single twist to death there is very little between them.

See the ashcroft test results here:
http://217.34.53.228:9876/uploads/BILLI ... 0GRAPH.pdf

IMO There is honestly no gain to be achieved by increaseing the ability of your four wheel drive and decreasing its reliability in the same move.
You will get into trouble earlyer and get towed home.

Why do you keep calling these parts unreliable? Do you have some test results or experience with these parts which no-one else has?

[cj]

Joe, just out of curiosity, can the chinese sidegears be swapped out for the ARB ones?

[chimpboy]

Its cemented my belief that the generic slip calculations Have absolutely no place in MY world of 4 wheeldriving , and trying to argue the the fact is a bit like talking to a christian about Darwins theory.

The interesting thing about this analogy is that Darwin's theory is correct and the Christian who won't listen is deluded by his own blind faith.

However with the lockers I feel the situation is a bit less extreme, I think there are valid reasons to prefer one product over another.

The ARB is clearly the more time-tested and proven product. But I would probably whack a chinese locker in a weekend Sierra without much hesitation.

[Tiny]

Its cemented my belief that the generic slip calculations Have absolutely no place in MY world of 4 wheeldriving , and trying to argue the the fact is a bit like talking to a christian about Darwins theory.

The interesting thing about this analogy is that Darwin's theory is correct and the Christian who won't listen is deluded by his own blind faith.

However with the lockers I feel the situation is a bit less extreme, I think there are valid reasons to prefer one product over another.

The ARB is clearly the more time-tested and proven product. But I would probably whack a chinese locker in a weekend Sierra without much hesitation.

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

[Skegbudley]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

[chimpboy]

If the Chinese ones start selling in sufficient numbers, ARB will drop their prices. I think they may already be affecting the prices of second-hand ARBs.

Look at winches. The Chinese winches used to be complete jokes, and it was always, "just get a second-hand Warn." Now some of them are jokes, but people are willing to look at a Chinese-made winch and rate it depending on the actual build quality. They are viable competitors in the marketplace now.

So... watch this space.

[Tiny]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

sorry

as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.

The problem is ARB austalia, gold dealers get a reasonable discount, but anone else who want to sell them is lucky to get 10% on ARB gear. Anyone in the retail business with know that selling gear on 10% margin wont make you $ you really need about 25% minimum to cover overehads and pay wages etc before you start to look at making any real cash. and then those guys on the 10% get screwd harder coz they cant even do any discounts on that product, and then you wonder why there are so many people selling other "cheap" options?

Sorry ARB Australia, wake the F@#K up

Yes the ARB product bar the suspension gear is some of the best we have avaialable, but they are screwing the resellers and the consumer

[brad-chevlux]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

sorry

as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.

The problem is ARB austalia, gold dealers get a reasonable discount, but anone else who want to sell them is lucky to get 10% on ARB gear. Anyone in the retail business with know that selling gear on 10% margin wont make you $ you really need about 25% minimum to cover overehads and pay wages etc before you start to look at making any real cash. and then those guys on the 10% get screwd harder coz they cant even do any discounts on that product, and then you wonder why there are so many people selling other "cheap" options?

Sorry ARB Australia, wake the F@#K up

Yes the ARB product bar the suspension gear is some of the best we have avaialable, but they are screwing the resellers and the consumer

You really need about %40 for the line to worth keeping on your shelves.
and if you don't have enough markup your accountant kicks your arse

[Jeeps]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

sorry

as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.

The problem is ARB austalia, gold dealers get a reasonable discount, but anone else who want to sell them is lucky to get 10% on ARB gear. Anyone in the retail business with know that selling gear on 10% margin wont make you $ you really need about 25% minimum to cover overehads and pay wages etc before you start to look at making any real cash. and then those guys on the 10% get screwd harder coz they cant even do any discounts on that product, and then you wonder why there are so many people selling other "cheap" options?

Sorry ARB Australia, wake the F@#K up

Yes the ARB product bar the suspension gear is some of the best we have avaialable, but they are screwing the resellers and the consumer

You really need about %40 for the line to worth keeping on your shelves.
and if you don't have enough markup your accountant kicks your arse

It's not much different than any other industry. I can buy coke cheaper at Woolies at their retail price than i can at cost from Coke themselves, and i buy over 100 cartons for my shops each week...

Shops with higher turnover (like woolies) get a bigger discount from the supplier.

[bigcam]

hmm does this seem a tad suspicious.. no where in the add does it say they are ARB lockers,

old stock lying around.. my arse!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Nissan-Patrol-Ai ... 240%3A1308

[brad-chevlux]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

sorry

as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.

The problem is ARB austalia, gold dealers get a reasonable discount, but anone else who want to sell them is lucky to get 10% on ARB gear. Anyone in the retail business with know that selling gear on 10% margin wont make you $ you really need about 25% minimum to cover overehads and pay wages etc before you start to look at making any real cash. and then those guys on the 10% get screwd harder coz they cant even do any discounts on that product, and then you wonder why there are so many people selling other "cheap" options?

Sorry ARB Australia, wake the F@#K up

Yes the ARB product bar the suspension gear is some of the best we have avaialable, but they are screwing the resellers and the consumer

You really need about %40 for the line to worth keeping on your shelves.
and if you don't have enough markup your accountant kicks your arse

It's not much different than any other industry. I can buy coke cheaper at Woolies at their retail price than i can at cost from Coke themselves, and i buy over 100 cartons for my shops each week...

Shops with higher turnover (like woolies) get a bigger discount from the supplier.

thats easy, buy it from woolies, just like alot of people buy ARB lockers from teh states

[thehanko]

bwaaahahahaha

back on topic however, I don't think anyone is or would say that the chinese product is as good as or superior to the ARB one, however I don;t think it is as poor as some seem to be sugestion. If ARB who make the lockers here can sell them into the US market as cheaply as they do, then they can sell them here far cheaper and still profit. This would limit the cheaper cometition, as many don' see why they should pay as much as they do when they are made here.

in terms of buying a chinese one for my vehice, I use mine for fairly rough stuff as do many here, but for someone who want a locker for the in case thing like most buy winches for, then it may be a good option. I know plenty of people with 2" lifts and 33s on patrols andd cruiser who just like to drive basic stuff they should have no problems with in standard for and open diffs, but they also worry about going down somewhere to camp and not getting up due to rain, plus maybe add the fact they have a trailer on, so having the option to throw a locker in a crawl up a hill with the added traction vs numbers and wheelspeed,. I thing it would be a suitable option

Geez Tiny,
What's with you making sense? We might get the wrong idea.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
The only reason people would even consider the Chinese locker is due to the over pricing of the ARB unit.
ARB's excuse that there is a larger market in the USA therefore they are sold cheaper over there is just more proof of their arrogance towards us.

sorry

as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.

The problem is ARB austalia, gold dealers get a reasonable discount, but anone else who want to sell them is lucky to get 10% on ARB gear. Anyone in the retail business with know that selling gear on 10% margin wont make you $ you really need about 25% minimum to cover overehads and pay wages etc before you start to look at making any real cash. and then those guys on the 10% get screwd harder coz they cant even do any discounts on that product, and then you wonder why there are so many people selling other "cheap" options?

Sorry ARB Australia, wake the F@#K up

Yes the ARB product bar the suspension gear is some of the best we have avaialable, but they are screwing the resellers and the consumer

You really need about %40 for the line to worth keeping on your shelves.
and if you don't have enough markup your accountant kicks your arse

It's not much different than any other industry. I can buy coke cheaper at Woolies at their retail price than i can at cost from Coke themselves, and i buy over 100 cartons for my shops each week...

Shops with higher turnover (like woolies) get a bigger discount from the supplier.

this is not a comparable scenario as lockers are to a fair extent a one off purchase, whislt coke is a consumable.

but we get the point.

funny how everyone says arb needs to look out, yet there is only one person on this forum we know of with a chinese locker.

time will tell and yes they will improve but i dont thing arb needs to worry just yet.

Someone also mentioned not giving dealers much margin so they cant discount. this is often done to stop dealers devaluing a brand. as soon as you give them more margin they battle more and cut their own margin again.

arb are making s much money as they can off the back of the good products and brand name they have built - whats wrong with that? business is about making money.

anyway can somepeople please buy some chinese lockers and see how they go please?

[Jeeps]

thats easy, buy it from woolies, just like alot of people buy ARB lockers from teh states

Nah, they won't sell me as much as i need...

[coxy321]

hmm does this seem a tad suspicious.. no where in the add does it say they are ARB lockers,

old stock lying around.. my arse!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Nissan-Patrol-Ai ... 240%3A1308

Beat you to it!
I asked the seller about this the other day.....

Hi the compressor is non ARB. not sure about the lockers. The compressor actually came in a blue box, lockers are a standard type cardbox box with the stock codes.
Thanks

So in other words, its all chinese, with a 3% possibility of the lockers being genuine ARB.

$3500 RRP ?????!!!!!!! The chinese units must have gone UP......

[joeblow]

hmm does this seem a tad suspicious.. no where in the add does it say they are ARB lockers,

old stock lying around.. my arse!

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Nissan-Patrol-Ai ... 240%3A1308

rrp 3500 bucks!

[dbongard]

Hi guys,

OK, hopefully some clarification for this thread (in no particular order):

1.
The diffs in that video are Toyota 30spl. We don't make the model we tested in that video any more, we got it back from the shelves of a dealer interstate. We only did that because we wanted everything to be fair, and since our new model Toyota 30 spl diffs have much larger gear sets in them then that wouldn't have been a fair comparison. Our current model equivalent to that Toyota model will accept swap-in 35 spline Dana Spicer 60HD sized side gear splines (gear set #728H031). Those 35 spline shafts will also break inside those units at over 14,000lb.ft. We are not aware of a shaft that will physically fit inside the hub dimensions of those gears that have a high enough failure torque to damage the diff.

2.
Our new diffs do not cost more than our old diffs. I can only assume this assumption was based on a Nissan H233B quotation for our new models which would most likely have included the cost of the higher rated carrier bearings that our new models were designed for. Most customers would have replaced the bearings (as consumable items) on our old model diffs anyways, and you don't need to buy these bearings from us if you don't want to, but last time I checked we were cheaper than the bearing shop we use.

3.
We do not sell diffs cheaper to the USA than we do to Australia. It takes several months to sea freight our stock to North America. From the time the USA stockists place orders to the time they get them, very drastic changes in the value of our dollar can (and recently did by 40%) occur. Changes to our dollar effects how much the USA can buy our stuff for...so they buy when our dollar is low, and they get more for their dollars. When our dollar is high we Aussies all jump on the internet to see how much we can get American goods for, and we find Air Lockers for sale that were ordered several months ago at a different exchange rate. This results in the USA selling for a different value than we do at that point in time, and therefore, you can sometimes profit from the change in dollar values and shipping times. If this doesn't make sense then stay far away from the stock market.

4.
While the ARB diff in that test had internals that were completely unscathed, the knock-off diff was virtually obliterated at the torque value in the video. Given that every vital component in the whole assembly was either damaged or destroyed, it is safe to say that the torque limit of almost every piece of the knock off is somewhere below axle break torque. So what torque do you think they started to flex at? Or bend at? Or develope those little time-bomb cracks in the case layer of the gearing or shafts? And at this lower torque value, how many times would it endure this before fatigue resulted in a failure?

5.
No, our gears and other spare parts don't fit into them. Neither do their gears. The manufacturing tolerances in a gear set are really quite tight. We have found that so far each of their diffs measures up differently throughout the gear set, which suggests that they have manually fit the castings to suit the individual gears inside each unit. We tried but were unsuccessful at aquiring 'spare parts' from this factory at all.

6.
The diffs in the eBay ad by seller "4x4acces" are not ARB products. eBay sellers can usually get past copyright and patent infringements by selling under what is called 'drop shipping', an ACCC loophole which allows them to go from the Chinese factory straight to your door, and therefore the seller assumes no responsibility for copyright infringements, warranty, arrival condition, or otherwise. That seller appears to already have them so I would assume they were his 'assessment samples'. Funny that the highest bid is already well over what the Chinese factory charges for them directly though.

7.
Will ARB reduce the cost of their diffs to compete? HELL NO. These factories are not 'competing' with ARB, they are producing knock-off facsimilies. They want you to buy them because you believe they are the same thing as an ARB for less money. Because of this, all they need to copy is the looks of an ARB. The materials are the very cheapest available. The cost of the materials alone that goes into an ARB locker comes to more than what the Chinese company is selling theirs for. And again, if you think that the cost of material commodities is any cheaper in China than it is here, or anywhere else, then stay far FAR away from the stock market.

Just wanted to get those points straight before we had too many more mislead posts. The usual 'experts' in the crowd can commence flaming me now.

-daniel
AIR LOCKER

[Micka]

^^^



Thanks for that reply. Not that it really needed to be said to those who have experience with the ARB locker.

Micka

[cj]

6.
The diffs in the eBay ad by seller "4x4acces" are not ARB products. eBay sellers can usually get past copyright and patent infringements by selling under what is called 'drop shipping', an ACCC loophole which allows them to go from the Chinese factory straight to your door, and therefore the seller assumes no responsibility for copyright infringements, warranty, arrival condition, or otherwise.

Thank you for the response.

With respect to the patent issue, hasn't that run out on the original design? I assume though that you have protection for the current changes.

[nottie]

Hi guys


2.
Our new diffs do not cost more than our old diffs. I can only assume this assumption was based on a Nissan H233B quotation for our new models which would most likely have included the cost of the higher rated carrier bearings that our new models were designed for. Most customers would have replaced the bearings (as consumable items) on our old model diffs anyways, and you don't need to buy these bearings from us if you don't want to, but last time I checked we were cheaper than the bearing shop we use.


Just wanted to get those points straight before we had too many more mislead posts. The usual 'experts' in the crowd can commence flaming me now.

-daniel
AIR LOCKER

Correctomondo Daniel....

I dont beleive that you needed to justify your product as it speaks for itself.
But great to see that you guys do follow the market that supports you guys.

In truth a second hand ten year old air locker would still be worth more then the chinese crap.

Most things (if not all) that come out of china = CRAP

Is what i have been told about the new generation of air lockers correct? Curious thats all.
Cheers Jamie

[brad-chevlux]

Hi guys,

OK, hopefully some clarification for this thread (in no particular order):

1.
The diffs in that video are Toyota 30spl. We don't make the model we tested in that video any more, we got it back from the shelves of a dealer interstate. We only did that because we wanted everything to be fair, and since our new model Toyota 30 spl diffs have much larger gear sets in them then that wouldn't have been a fair comparison. Our current model equivalent to that Toyota model will accept swap-in 35 spline Dana Spicer 60HD sized side gear splines (gear set #728H031). Those 35 spline shafts will also break inside those units at over 14,000lb.ft. We are not aware of a shaft that will physically fit inside the hub dimensions of those gears that have a high enough failure torque to damage the diff.

2.
Our new diffs do not cost more than our old diffs. I can only assume this assumption was based on a Nissan H233B quotation for our new models which would most likely have included the cost of the higher rated carrier bearings that our new models were designed for. Most customers would have replaced the bearings (as consumable items) on our old model diffs anyways, and you don't need to buy these bearings from us if you don't want to, but last time I checked we were cheaper than the bearing shop we use.

3.
We do not sell diffs cheaper to the USA than we do to Australia. It takes several months to sea freight our stock to North America. From the time the USA stockists place orders to the time they get them, very drastic changes in the value of our dollar can (and recently did by 40%) occur. Changes to our dollar effects how much the USA can buy our stuff for...so they buy when our dollar is low, and they get more for their dollars. When our dollar is high we Aussies all jump on the internet to see how much we can get American goods for, and we find Air Lockers for sale that were ordered several months ago at a different exchange rate. This results in the USA selling for a different value than we do at that point in time, and therefore, you can sometimes profit from the change in dollar values and shipping times. If this doesn't make sense then stay far away from the stock market.

4.
While the ARB diff in that test had internals that were completely unscathed, the knock-off diff was virtually obliterated at the torque value in the video. Given that every vital component in the whole assembly was either damaged or destroyed, it is safe to say that the torque limit of almost every piece of the knock off is somewhere below axle break torque. So what torque do you think they started to flex at? Or bend at? Or develope those little time-bomb cracks in the case layer of the gearing or shafts? And at this lower torque value, how many times would it endure this before fatigue resulted in a failure?

5.
No, our gears and other spare parts don't fit into them. Neither do their gears. The manufacturing tolerances in a gear set are really quite tight. We have found that so far each of their diffs measures up differently throughout the gear set, which suggests that they have manually fit the castings to suit the individual gears inside each unit. We tried but were unsuccessful at aquiring 'spare parts' from this factory at all.

6.
The diffs in the eBay ad by seller "4x4acces" are not ARB products. eBay sellers can usually get past copyright and patent infringements by selling under what is called 'drop shipping', an ACCC loophole which allows them to go from the Chinese factory straight to your door, and therefore the seller assumes no responsibility for copyright infringements, warranty, arrival condition, or otherwise. That seller appears to already have them so I would assume they were his 'assessment samples'. Funny that the highest bid is already well over what the Chinese factory charges for them directly though.

7.
Will ARB reduce the cost of their diffs to compete? HELL NO. These factories are not 'competing' with ARB, they are producing knock-off facsimilies. They want you to buy them because you believe they are the same thing as an ARB for less money. Because of this, all they need to copy is the looks of an ARB. The materials are the very cheapest available. The cost of the materials alone that goes into an ARB locker comes to more than what the Chinese company is selling theirs for. And again, if you think that the cost of material commodities is any cheaper in China than it is here, or anywhere else, then stay far FAR away from the stock market.

Just wanted to get those points straight before we had too many more mislead posts. The usual 'experts' in the crowd can commence flaming me now.

-daniel
AIR LOCKER

the only thing i'd like to see is a destruction test of the real thing.
if you really wanted to prove the point, thats what you should have done.

[RUFF]

the only thing i'd like to see is a destruction test of the real thing.
if you really wanted to prove the point, thats what you should have done.

Did you even read the reply you just quoted

They have tried to break the locker with a 35 spline axle. The axle failed at over 14,000lb.ft. What would you suggest they use to prove this point for you?

I have seen 35spline Alloy axles snapped in ARB lockers with no damage to the locker.

[Micka]

the only thing i'd like to see is a destruction test of the real thing.
if you really wanted to prove the point, thats what you should have done.

Did you even read the reply you just quoted

They have tried to break the locker with a 35 spline axle. The axle failed at over 14,000lb.ft. What would you suggest they use to prove this point for you?

I have seen 35spline Alloy axles snapped in ARB lockers with no damage to the locker.

Tony...at the risk of being given a ride on the Bus, some people in this thread are total farkin idiots and explaining to them about the pro's of an ARB is a waste of time.

The above quoter obviously is oblivious to what the figures mean and has not the cranial capacity to comprehend.

[joeblow]

the only thing i'd like to see is a destruction test of the real thing.
if you really wanted to prove the point, thats what you should have done.

Did you even read the reply you just quoted

They have tried to break the locker with a 35 spline axle. The axle failed at over 14,000lb.ft. What would you suggest they use to prove this point for you?

I have seen 35spline Alloy axles snapped in ARB lockers with no damage to the locker.

Tony...at the risk of being given a ride on the Bus, some people in this thread are total farkin idiots and explaining to them about the pro's of an ARB is a waste of time.

The above quoter obviously is oblivious to what the figures mean and has not the cranial capacity to comprehend.

ahhhh..............wise words.

[coxy321]

Thanks for that info Daniel. As said, its good to see manufacturers getting in and offering proper explanations - laymans terms also help a lot on here!

A quick question regarding copyrights and naming. Do ARB actually own the name "Air Locker"? It was brought up a fair while ago, but there were quite a few people wondering how the chinese diff locks could/were being advertised as Air Lockers.

Coxy

[brad-chevlux]

the only thing i'd like to see is a destruction test of the real thing.
if you really wanted to prove the point, thats what you should have done.

Did you even read the reply you just quoted

They have tried to break the locker with a 35 spline axle. The axle failed at over 14,000lb.ft. What would you suggest they use to prove this point for you?

I have seen 35spline Alloy axles snapped in ARB lockers with no damage to the locker.

Tony...at the risk of being given a ride on the Bus, some people in this thread are total farkin idiots and explaining to them about the pro's of an ARB is a waste of time.

The above quoter obviously is oblivious to what the figures mean and has not the cranial capacity to comprehend.

apparently not.

just because no one make a drive shaft strong enough to do it, doesn't mean it can't be tested to failure point. they just need a new test that can.


something els they need is better service at their stores and some friendly staff.

[mike_nofx]

The test is measuring the load at about a 5" fulcrum, so you would be dividing the result by somthing like 3 to give you the figures for the leverage of a 33" tire.

Umm what?
Do you understand what torque is and what a ft-lb is?

Do you understand leverage ?

why don't you answer Kiwi's question first?

If something breaks at "X" ft-lb, it doesn't matter how long the lever is, it will still break at X ft-lb of torque.

For example (if you still don't get it!) If you have a bolt which will break at 100ft-lb, and 2 torque wrenches: one with, say a 2 foot handle, and one with a 4 foot handle. Set both wrenches to 100 ft-lb.... Both wrenches will break the bolt at 100 ft-lb (in a perfect world)

The longer handled wrench wont break the bolt at 50ft-lb because its twice as long, so you do not divide the breaking point torque by 2!

Yes the longer wrench will reach 100 ft-lb a lot easier.

Mike

[Dozoor]

{Tim Taylor voice on} 14,000 ft lb Ahrrr ahrrr ahrrr

Thats reliable .



Thanks for the the Input Daniel .

[dbongard]

just because no one make a drive shaft strong enough to do it, doesn't mean it can't be tested to failure point. they just need a new test that can.

TESTING

Torque wise, if we could break it with a shaft then it would still be under development. That is our design parameter. The shaft, any shaft including high end aftermarket shafts, must not leave the test bed alive, and the locker must be completely servicable afterward. Not just intact, but unbent and uncracked, etc., and therefore good enough that I'd put it back in my own car.

We have a few other tests to help us trial new materials, geometry, and heat treat/surface treat processes. We built a rig to crash them repeatedly into and out of lock at relatively high speed and torque. PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME AND SAY I SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO DO THIS! But this is a very good way for us to compare apples to apples in the lab. It has even helped us trial some oils and additives on the market with big claims. This harsh test eventually wears down the locking gear over time, so I guess that qualifies as destruction. But it has also allowed us to develope the technology of our locking gears well beyond where we ever could have reached by just making assumptions.

We have also been trying to help out the polar expedition guys by developing our pneumatics around extreme low temperatures. We can already claim full operation far below the temps that electric lockers, cable lockers, and shifter fork lockers have frozen solid, but the threshold is between -30 and -40C. We're pushing for -50.

The desert racers are looking for the opposite extreme. They run diffs beyopnd temperatures that turn most oils into bitumen, and our elastomers lab has helped us push the specs of our seals beyond the normal commercially available grades to keep operational temperatures beyond the limits of the new high temp grades of synthetic oils out there.

For that development we have hot and cold testing cells in the lab to run Air Lockers to our standard life cycles of anywhere over 20,000 engagements. This also helps with lubricant trials.

We also collect allot of test data through military organisations around the world who put our diffs through their own standardized testing programs before running our diffs. They have also driven allot of our compressor improvements.

Oh yeah...and then there's forum testing. That's when you guys punish our stuff with giant overpowered comp vehicles in ways we never even dreamed of, and let us and everyone else know via the forums in some of the harshest ways imaginable.

Thanks for the thanks guys.

-daniel
AIR LOCKER