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Dozoor wrote:The test is measuring the load at about a 5" fulcrum, so you would be dividing the result by somthing like 3 to give you the figures for the leverage of a 33" tire.
Umm what?
Do you understand what torque is and what a ft-lb is?
Do you understand leverage ?
why don't you answer Kiwi's question first?
If something breaks at "X" ft-lb, it doesn't matter how long the lever is, it will still break at X ft-lb of torque.
For example (if you still don't get it!) If you have a bolt which will break at 100ft-lb, and 2 torque wrenches: one with, say a 2 foot handle, and one with a 4 foot handle. Set both wrenches to 100 ft-lb.... Both wrenches will break the bolt at 100 ft-lb (in a perfect world)
The longer handled wrench wont break the bolt at 50ft-lb because its twice as long, so you do not divide the breaking point torque by 2!
Yes the longer wrench will reach 100 ft-lb a lot easier.
Mike
MIKE
I was working back from the piont of adhesion throwing in a bit of shock load hence the --somthing like --- ,and yes 5" was wrong.
yes your four foot handle will reach the pressure at half the effort of the two foot handle.
a set of 44s will eat axles that will occasionally break with 31s.
Carnys hate rover axles because there tents fall over.
Tires make me think from the tire back through the running gear,
The size is probly the biggest single thing that effects axle reliability
other then driving style.(of course gearing ect)
dbongard wrote:
We have also been trying to help out the polar expedition guys by developing our pneumatics around extreme low temperatures. We can already claim full operation far below the temps that electric lockers, cable lockers, and shifter fork lockers have frozen solid, but the threshold is between -30 and -40C. We're pushing for -50.
The desert racers are looking for the opposite extreme. They run diffs beyopnd temperatures that turn most oils into bitumen, and our elastomers lab has helped us push the specs of our seals beyond the normal commercially available grades to keep operational temperatures beyond the limits of the new high temp grades of synthetic oils out there.
For that development we have hot and cold testing cells in the lab to run Air Lockers to our standard life cycles of anywhere over 20,000 engagements. This also helps with lubricant trials.
Thanks for all the great info Daniel. Good to have you on here. As a matter of interest, are these special one-off lockers (seals, etc... ) or are they incorporated into production?
cj wrote:
With respect to the patent issue, hasn't that run out on the original design? I assume though that you have protection for the current changes.
If ARB are anything like any of the companies I have worked with, I am sure they slap a patent on any single tiny component/improvement/modification they can.
e.g. - a quick search reveals these (one with dbongard's name on it!)
Trade Mark : 1265932
Word: AIR LOCKER
Image:
Lodgement Date: 07-OCT-2008
Acceptance Due: 22-MAR-2010
First Report: 22-DEC-2008
Class/es: 12
Status: Under Examination - Extension Fees Not Required
Kind: n/a
Type of Mark: Word
Examiner: David BESWICK
Owner/s: ARB Corporation Limited
ACN: 006708756
42-44 Garden Street
KILSYTH,3137,VIC
AUSTRALIA
Address for Service: Davies Collison Cave
Level 15
1 Nicholson Street
MELBOURNE
3000,VIC
Goods & Services
Class: 12 Locking differentials for motor vehicles
just because no one make a drive shaft strong enough to do it, doesn't mean it can't be tested to failure point. they just need a new test that can.
something els they need is better service at their stores and some friendly staff.
So driving over it with a road roller will suffice?
If it cant be broken with any axle what is the point of breaking it any other way? Your not going to prove anything. Other than its not made from unobtainium and it can be broken.
brad-chevlux wrote:just because no one make a drive shaft strong enough to do it, doesn't mean it can't be tested to failure point. they just need a new test that can.
TESTING
Torque wise, if we could break it with a shaft then it would still be under development. That is our design parameter. The shaft, any shaft including high end aftermarket shafts, must not leave the test bed alive, and the locker must be completely servicable afterward. Not just intact, but unbent and uncracked, etc., and therefore good enough that I'd put it back in my own car.
We have a few other tests to help us trial new materials, geometry, and heat treat/surface treat processes. We built a rig to crash them repeatedly into and out of lock at relatively high speed and torque. PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME AND SAY I SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO DO THIS! But this is a very good way for us to compare apples to apples in the lab. It has even helped us trial some oils and additives on the market with big claims. This harsh test eventually wears down the locking gear over time, so I guess that qualifies as destruction. But it has also allowed us to develope the technology of our locking gears well beyond where we ever could have reached by just making assumptions.
We have also been trying to help out the polar expedition guys by developing our pneumatics around extreme low temperatures. We can already claim full operation far below the temps that electric lockers, cable lockers, and shifter fork lockers have frozen solid, but the threshold is between -30 and -40C. We're pushing for -50.
The desert racers are looking for the opposite extreme. They run diffs beyopnd temperatures that turn most oils into bitumen, and our elastomers lab has helped us push the specs of our seals beyond the normal commercially available grades to keep operational temperatures beyond the limits of the new high temp grades of synthetic oils out there.
For that development we have hot and cold testing cells in the lab to run Air Lockers to our standard life cycles of anywhere over 20,000 engagements. This also helps with lubricant trials.
We also collect allot of test data through military organisations around the world who put our diffs through their own standardized testing programs before running our diffs. They have also driven allot of our compressor improvements.
Oh yeah...and then there's forum testing. That's when you guys punish our stuff with giant overpowered comp vehicles in ways we never even dreamed of, and let us and everyone else know via the forums in some of the harshest ways imaginable.
Thanks for the thanks guys.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
i do understand what your saying, and that your product is what you claim it to be, the best. (subject to many forum debates)
i'd just be interested in what the limmit is. for no other reason then curiosity
brad-chevlux wrote:just because no one make a drive shaft strong enough to do it, doesn't mean it can't be tested to failure point. they just need a new test that can.
TESTING
Torque wise, if we could break it with a shaft then it would still be under development. That is our design parameter. The shaft, any shaft including high end aftermarket shafts, must not leave the test bed alive, and the locker must be completely servicable afterward. Not just intact, but unbent and uncracked, etc., and therefore good enough that I'd put it back in my own car.
We have a few other tests to help us trial new materials, geometry, and heat treat/surface treat processes. We built a rig to crash them repeatedly into and out of lock at relatively high speed and torque. PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME AND SAY I SAID IT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO DO THIS! But this is a very good way for us to compare apples to apples in the lab. It has even helped us trial some oils and additives on the market with big claims. This harsh test eventually wears down the locking gear over time, so I guess that qualifies as destruction. But it has also allowed us to develope the technology of our locking gears well beyond where we ever could have reached by just making assumptions.
We have also been trying to help out the polar expedition guys by developing our pneumatics around extreme low temperatures. We can already claim full operation far below the temps that electric lockers, cable lockers, and shifter fork lockers have frozen solid, but the threshold is between -30 and -40C. We're pushing for -50.
The desert racers are looking for the opposite extreme. They run diffs beyopnd temperatures that turn most oils into bitumen, and our elastomers lab has helped us push the specs of our seals beyond the normal commercially available grades to keep operational temperatures beyond the limits of the new high temp grades of synthetic oils out there.
For that development we have hot and cold testing cells in the lab to run Air Lockers to our standard life cycles of anywhere over 20,000 engagements. This also helps with lubricant trials.
We also collect allot of test data through military organisations around the world who put our diffs through their own standardized testing programs before running our diffs. They have also driven allot of our compressor improvements.
Oh yeah...and then there's forum testing. That's when you guys punish our stuff with giant overpowered comp vehicles in ways we never even dreamed of, and let us and everyone else know via the forums in some of the harshest ways imaginable.
Thanks for the thanks guys.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
I was one of the people sitting on the fence of this one, the tracks I do aren't very difficult and I didn't really see the point in spending the extra money for what I am going to use them for. HOWEVER, you sir have just convinced me to keep my money local and go the arb units. Although, amongst the rubble, there have been some good arguements for and against, I think in the end the I would rather have the knowledge that the support, knowledge and most importantly spare parts are all nearby when I need them.
as far as the bigger maket, that can only be used if it is a product with a limited number of sales overall. the ARB products is no more expansice to make if it is going to the australian market. they may make a run of 200 and 170 may get exported and 30 stay for the local market, fine, but the cost in the same.
You forget about exchange rates though.
ATM it's 1AUD to 0.65USD
So a $1000AUD locker (at cost) is really $688USD (at cost) and that's without freight costs added in which are also done in USD and this is all without mark ups as well.
So if you sold the $1000AUD locker in USA for $900USD you'd make $1308AUD on each locker.
I went to ARB to get a new air fitting nut and olive so I could connect the air line to my locker.
I went to head office in Kilsyth too.
They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
Struth wrote:They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
ARB Part#170105
AIR LOCKER BULKHEAD FITTING KIT
-includes O-ring, olive, support tube, support spring, bulkhead body, centre compression nut, and outer compression nut.
Full retail price $13.52
Club price $12.17
-for 5 pneumatics parts, each billet machined from cartridge brass on a CNC machining station, a zinc plated NC profiled spring, all made in Bayswater, Victoria, and a DuPont certified BS104N70 O-ring...I can see how upsetting it would be forking out that kind of cash.
Maybe next time you should get a competitive quote from a pneumatics shop so you can show the sales staff at ARB how cheap you could get it elsewhere.
Struth wrote:They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
ARB Part#170105
AIR LOCKER BULKHEAD FITTING KIT
-includes O-ring, olive, support tube, support spring, bulkhead body, centre compression nut, and outer compression nut.
Full retail price $13.52
Club price $12.17
-for 5 pneumatics parts, each billet machined from cartridge brass on a CNC machining station, a zinc plated NC profiled spring, all made in Bayswater, Victoria, and a DuPont certified BS104N70 O-ring...I can see how upsetting it would be forking out that kind of cash.
Maybe next time you should get a competitive quote from a pneumatics shop so you can show the sales staff at ARB how cheap you could get it elsewhere.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
Mate... There's a fine line between customer service and being a smug SOB with an obvious disdain for your customer base. I know you won't agree but thats just because you can't see the line because its already quite some way behind you.
Although your post does support earlier suggestions in this thread that ARB's customer service was lacking. Eg. Even the head office gave him a bum-steer and sold him the wrong kit for more money. Win!
Obviously, everything is just conjecture and up for debate. The (ARB) engineer obviously injects some genuine knowledge and experience which is ALWAYS going to be listened to, but at the end of the day, vested interest in what he is saying.
At the beginning, I must admit I was leaning toward the copy, but the thought of a locker self destructing in the middle of nowhere turns me back toward the genuine article. And I must admit, the thought of buying Australian is another strong factor for me.
A big thanks to all who have contributed
Big Dave, Scarborough, Qld
Loose Screws 4wd Racing Team
lukethedork wrote:I still won't be buying an ARB Air Locker.
Yes you will
HA HA. I said 12 months ago to my self. sigh I will never own a locker...
NOW I OWN TWO ARB of course The only problem is they are fitted to my non road worthy truck which i cant drive anywhere. anyone wnat to come and fit them into my normal truck for me. free beers
*there's a rock, drive over it :) there's a bigger rock, drive over it :twisted: there's an even bigger rock, oops broke it :oops: Upgrade broken bit :bad-words:
Goto *
Struth wrote:They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
ARB Part#170105
AIR LOCKER BULKHEAD FITTING KIT
-includes O-ring, olive, support tube, support spring, bulkhead body, centre compression nut, and outer compression nut.
Full retail price $13.52
Club price $12.17
-for 5 pneumatics parts, each billet machined from cartridge brass on a CNC machining station, a zinc plated NC profiled spring, all made in Bayswater, Victoria, and a DuPont certified BS104N70 O-ring...I can see how upsetting it would be forking out that kind of cash.
Maybe next time you should get a competitive quote from a pneumatics shop so you can show the sales staff at ARB how cheap you could get it elsewhere.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
It was upsetting I remember at the time feeling financially abused, but hey I needed my locker working so faced with the choice of paying way too much for these parts and having a fun weekend, or not getting the parts and missing my fun I handed over the cash.
We use about $25k of CNC machined fittings made exclusively for us at work each month, they are not that expensive to buy when ordered in quantity.
But based on this experience and to again harp on a point a lot of people make re not getting good customer service I don't shop at ARB unless I have too.
I make no claim that the ARB locker isn't the best to be had either, so before some of you jump down a blokes throat over that read first, I also don't assume it is the strongest and most reliable locker alternative.
If feedback to me was that many customers find my sales methodology or my sales staff unpallitable I would wonder if it was time for a culture change at my retail outlets, it's not that big a retail busines that perceived culture shortfalls can't be addressed fairly easily.
Struth wrote:They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
ARB Part#170105
AIR LOCKER BULKHEAD FITTING KIT
-includes O-ring, olive, support tube, support spring, bulkhead body, centre compression nut, and outer compression nut.
Full retail price $13.52
Club price $12.17
-for 5 pneumatics parts, each billet machined from cartridge brass on a CNC machining station, a zinc plated NC profiled spring, all made in Bayswater, Victoria, and a DuPont certified BS104N70 O-ring...I can see how upsetting it would be forking out that kind of cash.
Maybe next time you should get a competitive quote from a pneumatics shop so you can show the sales staff at ARB how cheap you could get it elsewhere.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
It was upsetting I remember at the time feeling financially abused, but hey I needed my locker working so faced with the choice of paying way too much for these parts and having a fun weekend, or not getting the parts and missing my fun I handed over the cash.
We use about $25k of CNC machined fittings made exclusively for us at work each month, they are not that expensive to buy when ordered in quantity.
But based on this experience and to again harp on a point a lot of people make re not getting good customer service I don't shop at ARB unless I have too.
I make no claim that the ARB locker isn't the best to be had either, so before some of you jump down a blokes throat over that read first, I also don't assume it is the strongest and most reliable locker alternative.
If feedback to me was that many customers find my sales methodology or my sales staff unpallitable I would wonder if it was time for a culture change at my retail outlets, it's not that big a retail busines that perceived culture shortfalls can't be addressed fairly easily.
Struth wrote:They didn't have the part I wanted on it's own it was only available in a kit form that cost me I think $40 at the time, which is about one 30th of the cost of a whole locker, I got 1 fitting complete with olive, a piece of pneumatic hose and some other little bits that I didn't need. About $8.00 worth retail IMO.
ARB Part#170105
AIR LOCKER BULKHEAD FITTING KIT
-includes O-ring, olive, support tube, support spring, bulkhead body, centre compression nut, and outer compression nut.
Full retail price $13.52
Club price $12.17
-for 5 pneumatics parts, each billet machined from cartridge brass on a CNC machining station, a zinc plated NC profiled spring, all made in Bayswater, Victoria, and a DuPont certified BS104N70 O-ring...I can see how upsetting it would be forking out that kind of cash.
Maybe next time you should get a competitive quote from a pneumatics shop so you can show the sales staff at ARB how cheap you could get it elsewhere.
-daniel
AIR LOCKER
It was upsetting I remember at the time feeling financially abused, but hey I needed my locker working so faced with the choice of paying way too much for these parts and having a fun weekend, or not getting the parts and missing my fun I handed over the cash.
We use about $25k of CNC machined fittings made exclusively for us at work each month, they are not that expensive to buy when ordered in quantity.
But based on this experience and to again harp on a point a lot of people make re not getting good customer service I don't shop at ARB unless I have too.
I make no claim that the ARB locker isn't the best to be had either, so before some of you jump down a blokes throat over that read first, I also don't assume it is the strongest and most reliable locker alternative.
If feedback to me was that many customers find my sales methodology or my sales staff unpallitable I would wonder if it was time for a culture change at my retail outlets, it's not that big a retail busines that perceived culture shortfalls can't be addressed fairly easily.
Really this thread has added little, other than a good laugh,
- Most of ARB gear is quality gear and you are paying for the quality.
- The Chineese locker has its place in the market, but it is a different market segment to the one ARB/TJM are playing in.
- ARB are still arrogant pricks, and we only shop there when we have to.
- The Outers mob mentality lives on strong.
If we could just put this much effort into a comparison between the Air Locker and its real competitors and answer the TJM vs ARB debate... (web jockey opinions dont count)
My pms aren't working so to the chap who pm'd me re this thread here is my reply,
"I don't recall at any time putting forward a personal attack on yourself or suggesting that anyone at ARB is a jerk, I have mentioned pricing and sales staff attitude all valid points of dicussion I believe.
Personally I do not frown on anyone who has a differing opinion to me, be it on ARB products, the best V8 to fit in a hi lux or any other issue discussed on the forum.
So basically please don't feel that my opinion of you is lowered because you work at ARB, support their product or disagree with me.
i have never had a problem with anyone from arb!! i like to buy quality stuff so i expect to pay for it. i don't think they're that expensive anyway.
i've called them 5 mins before closing and asked them to leave parts out for me and they've helped me out.
i've never got them to install anything because i like to know my trucks back to front but as a retail outlet i don't have one negative thing to say about arb.......
is it just cool to bag them out or something?!?!?!? am i missing something?
mule75 wrote:i have never had a problem with anyone from arb!! i like to buy quality stuff so i expect to pay for it. i don't think they're that expensive anyway.
i've called them 5 mins before closing and asked them to leave parts out for me and they've helped me out.
i've never got them to install anything because i like to know my trucks back to front but as a retail outlet i don't have one negative thing to say about arb.......
is it just cool to bag them out or something?!?!?!? am i missing something?
maybe it's a store by store thing?
I think it's a store by store thing, I've been in their Perth store, one of their Nth Qld stores (forget which town but above Bundy might be McKay) and Wagga real nice folks, city stores don't do much for me though.
mule75 wrote:i have never had a problem with anyone from arb!! i like to buy quality stuff so i expect to pay for it. i don't think they're that expensive anyway.
i've called them 5 mins before closing and asked them to leave parts out for me and they've helped me out.
i've never got them to install anything because i like to know my trucks back to front but as a retail outlet i don't have one negative thing to say about arb.......
is it just cool to bag them out or something?!?!?!? am i missing something?
maybe it's a store by store thing?
I think it's a store by store thing, I've been in their Perth store, one of their Nth Qld stores (forget which town but above Bundy might be McKay) and Wagga real nice folks, city stores don't do much for me though.
Cheers
good to see typical outers tech being added to this thread.
lwb 1.6efi,4sp auto,f&r airlockers,dual t/cases.custom coils.builder of ROAD LEGAL custom suzukis...and other stuff.
CAD modelling-TECH drawings-DXF preparation.
http://www.auszookers.com/index.php
mule75 wrote:i have never had a problem with anyone from arb!! i like to buy quality stuff so i expect to pay for it. i don't think they're that expensive anyway.
i've called them 5 mins before closing and asked them to leave parts out for me and they've helped me out.
i've never got them to install anything because i like to know my trucks back to front but as a retail outlet i don't have one negative thing to say about arb.......
is it just cool to bag them out or something?!?!?!? am i missing something?
maybe it's a store by store thing?
I think it's a store by store thing, I've been in their Perth store, one of their Nth Qld stores (forget which town but above Bundy might be McKay) and Wagga real nice folks, city stores don't do much for me though.
Cheers
good to see typical outers tech being added to this thread.
Yep you just added a heap more tech with that one sentence didn't you?
