She still overheats!

[smellypaddler]

I've been on and off this board for years and my Fez has been on and off the road for the sameamount of time.

Original problem was a cracked block due to overheating. I replaced the engine and the radiator which still didn't fix the problem. After bugging the mechanic for ages he put another engine in but still it would overheat. I've tried 2nd hand radiators but no joy.

Had a new water pump maybe 10-15,000 ago.

I finally thought I'd fixed the problem when I fixed the viscous fan but after a few trips the overheating started again. Now it is at the stage that I can't go more than 1Km down the road before it is cooking

I know that they are prone to overheating but this car is now useless and can't be driven. IN the past 2 years it has probrably been driven less than 5,000kms as it is so unreliable.

Now I'm at the stage where I can't afford a new car but am reluctant to spend money on this one without knowing that the problem will be fixed.

I was thinking of fitting and 80L/min electric water pump, extractors and new 2inch exhaust. WHich I reckon will cost me just under a grand.

Does anyone reckon this will fix the problem to a stage where I can finally enjoy driving the car again?

I think I've pretty much tried everything else and am sick of taking it to mechanics to be told they can't do anything but still charge me for it.

I've never taken an engine apart before and don't want to pull it apart and stuff it up so I can't check valve timings etc.

Any help - (yep I've read all the stickies)

[ferris]

make shore your heater core underthe dash is not leaking water as they some times split and you only loss alittle bit at a time. then you will over heat as the level has dropped .had this problem for about 6mth then found wet carpet on pasangers side.all is happy now only leaked when got hot never leaked when cold.

[MightyMouse]

I could go on for hours re HD-E overheating.... IMO its poor waterpump design.

But they very sensitive to thermostats and many of the aftermarket ones are pretty vague in their operating point.

If you want to do a bit of work take the thermostat out ( a pita but free ) and see what happens.

Removing the power steering pump sounds hard but it isn't ( hoses have enough length to be moved out of the way ) which makes getting to the thermostat much easier.

[monmendoza]

How did you fix the viscous fan? I had a similar problem before. The viscous fan was the culprit. I repaired the viscous fan by putting more
silicon oil, but it was only a temporary solution. It went back to overheating after a few weeks. I finally solve the problem by replacing
the viscous fan with a brand new unit.

There are only 5 most probable reasons why your feroza is overheating:
I also listed it down in my opinion , in order of most probable occurence.

1. clogged radiator
2. defective thermostat
3. defective water pump
4. Defective viscous fan
5. crack engine

try testing each one. Im almost sure it is one of the 5 problems.

to test each one you may :

For a crack engine, if there is a presence of oil slick in the radiator
you probably have a crack engine.

The viscous fan can be check by
temporarily spot welding the fan or wrapping it with GI wire so that it will move at the same as the engine rpm. Then run your feroza. If overheating disappears then you need to replace your viscous fan.

To test the thermostat remove it first.

To test the water pump, check if there is water circulation in the
radiator. Also see if there is any leak near the water pump. A leak is
a sure sign that it is defective.

Do a visual test of your radiator and have it overhauled when you see
a lot of rust buildup.

[MightyMouse]

Your assumptions are based on adequate design in the first place and I'd question that. There are just so many signs of poor design with the engine.

1. They overheat with all components in good condition under load.
2. They are incredible sensitive to timing when hot
3. Even taking account of sensor delays they are slow to respond to changes in airflow.
4. A brand new engine ( pump hoses etc etc ) new radiator ( 3 row heavy duty ) still struggles on warm days.

Another sign of poor design is the fact that when coasting downhill for substantial periods they overcool - something that shouldn't happen if its designed properly.

And , someone posted recently they fitted an electric water pump and believed they had solved the problem.

[murcod]

Check your ignition timing and the vacuum advance mechanism. If it isn't advancing at idle then your engine WILL overheat. (Trust me on that one!)

Also, was the water pump genuine? Some of the aftermarket alternatives are decidedly substandard in their construction and design- same for the thermostats

Have you had the radiators checked out? I notice you've been using secondhand items?

[smellypaddler]

Ok here is some info.

1. clogged radiator

Could be although this car did run OK for a while on this radiator. It doesn't have any visible crap in it and when it was out and dried it didn't have any flakey bits in it.

2. defective thermostat

Have put a new one in that wasn't an original. I tested it side by side with the original in a saucepan and it opened up just fine. I think I have the old one back in there again at the moment but it tested fine.

3. defective water pump

I've decided that now K.Rudd has stimulated me I can afford the electric pump for $160 and will give it a go. It can't hurt having it on their anyway.

4. Defective viscous fan

When I first tested the fan I let the car heat up and then tried to stop the fan with a bit of cardboard. It was so easy to stop I could freely spin it the wrong way. After filling it with viscous fluid it would just tear up the cardboard and still does. I do have a spare viscous fan unit in the garage so I might weld it up and see what happens. Is there any problem with running it all the time like this?

5. crack engine

I BLOODY HOPE NOT. There is no oil in the radiator nor water in the oil and all cyclinders are firing fine.


Check your ignition timing and the vacuum advance mechanism. If it isn't advancing at idle then your engine WILL overheat. (Trust me on that one!) eh you speaka da mechanical lingo. You need to dumb it down a bit for me. If I can pull it apart I can get it back together again buut I have no idea how to do what you suggested. If you could go into detail a bit more I'll give it a go.

I'm not sure if the waterpump is genuine as it was back in the days when I made the mechanic round the corner rich. I guess if I put the elecrtric one on it can only complement the pump in their now.

How do I check to see if the radiators clogged? or who should I take it to around the Melbourne eastern suburbs to get it checked?

Thanks for all your help. Keep it coming as I'd love to get out and about in this car again.

[rentonpeter]

just thought id give my 2 cents worth as ive fitted a electric water pump with good results. i fitted a new radiator and an extremely effective thermo fan and still experienced overheating under load. after fittiing an electric water pump i have been able to 4wd with the A/C pumping !!! i fitted mine to the outlet from the radiator before the thermostat. i do recommend fitting a thermoswitch to switch it on only when the thermostat opens which allows you too keep the thermostat and over pressurize the system. i do however also recommend fitting a new radiator as a insurance policy as they are very reasonably priced . there are some photos of what i did if you search for electric water pump. if you have been running the engine hot i do recommend getting the engine rechecked again to make sure nothing is damaged.

[MightyMouse]

The ball race that the vacuum advance runs on has a bad habit of getting locked up with solidified grease - causing the timing to be retarded - bad.

Also the piping diagram for the distributor main and sub cans is VERY unclear in the ignition section of the manual. The emission control section has a much more legible drawing. Get it wrong and.......

Don't forget that the dissy is EXACTLY the same as an HD/C Applause / Charade so if its stuffed then a trip to Centre Road self serve will get you another one cheap if you can pull it out. ( you need to use the Feroza Dissy cap ..... ).

If your stuck give me a call - you still haven't delivered on your long promised trip

[smellypaddler]

Hey MM, that last post was way beyond my technical ability. I'd love to get out on a trip but the old fez hasn't moved since you were here last

I've gone and bought an electric water pump as it seemed the cheapest of the options to try first. Davies Craig say that you should disconnect the original water pump if using a themal controller or if wiring it direct to the ignition but they don't say that it is needed if using the thermal switch.

Does anyone know if there would be any problems leaving the original water pump as is and just wiring the electric pump to the ignition? I aim to buy one of the thermal switches that inserts into the top radiator hose but can't wait that long to see if it fixes the overheating problem. I'm impatient to get the car running again

[rentonpeter]

hey mate. i left my original water pump in as it makes no difference in flow due to the ridiculous clearances. you can hook it up to the ignition if you want to test it temporarily. if you want to run off ignition davies craig recommends removing the thermostat to stop pressure building up on half of the system and blowing off a radiator hose. i would not recommend removing the thermostat completely as it regulates coolant flow through the system. the other thing to do is run a switch on the dash and wait till it heats up and the thermostat is open then switch it on. i personally have a 3 way switch (one for thermo switch control, one for off for water crossings and one for testing or incase the controller stuffs up at some point).

[smellypaddler]

Thanks RP. I think to get the car running and knowing me it will probrably stay like that forever I'll just run a switch into the cab and turn it on when it's up to temp and the thermostats open.

Hopefully I'll be able to see the difference as soon as the switch is hit.

Instead of extractors and a new exhaust I'm thinking I may get the radiator re-cored or buy a new one if I can get one cheap enough. There was a thread on here a while ago for ones under $300 I think?

Once it has been re-cored I'll fit an in-line coolant filter to the top hose.

Do you think the EWP will be OK at the start without a mounting bracket? I'll fabricate something eventually but in the meantime I just want to fit it to the hoses and get the car going.

[MightyMouse]

Ok... the simpler version of dissy 101

The timing of the spark to the cylinders is controlled by three factors.

1/ The mechanical alignment of the distributor body to the crankshaft which in simplest terms is adjusted by the two bolts that allow the distributor body to be rotated slightly - called static timing.

2/ A mechanical system fitted inside the distributor body that advances the spark in a defined relationship to engine RPM - called Centrifugal Advance

3/ A vacuum diaphragm mechanism that operates on the distributors internals to advance the timing in response to engine vacuum. In reality the varying vacuum is used as a substitute for engine load. Low Vacuum - high engine load and vice versa.

The last one requires the intermal pickup to be able to rotate freely inside the distributor body and in the Feroza that's done by mounting the pickup on a plate mounted on a large bearing.

The bearing is grease lubricated from the factory but over the years the grease gets hard and the bearing wont allow the vacuum can to advance the ignition resulting in timing that is retarded under the majority of load conditions -not good for engine temperatures,

The centrifugal advance also uses a number of rotating components that can bind up over the years resulting in similar issues.

Unfortunately most people treat the distributor as a set and forget item.... its hidden away so gets neglected when it needs occasional TLC to keep it operating correctly.

[smellypaddler]

Thanks MM, That makes a bit more sense to me. So what's the plan with the checking the dizzy is advancing at idle?

Is there anything to watch out for (will I bugger anything up) if I just pull the dizzy out and check things that should move are moving etc.

Should I give it a good clean with something like CRC and then blow it out with compressed air?

Also do you still have the contact details for the guy who got you the 3-core re-core radiator? I wouldn't mind giving him a ring and trying to find one for myself.

Thanks for everyones help. I have 4 days off next week so hopefully if the pump arrives I can have a good look under the bonnet.

[MightyMouse]

I think it was Burwood radiators, on a side street just off to the left after you go down the hill on Highbury road - at the Warrigal Rd end.

He initially said there was nothing available but to my pleasure rang during the day to say he'd come up with a three row core and sure enough.......

As for dissy check... when you take the cap off, you'll see the rod that goes from the vacuum cans to the plate carrying the ignition pickup - its held on with a small C clip.

Remove the C clip and then manually rotate the plate/pickup... you'll immediately be able to feel if the bearing is free or gunked up.

Just make certain to note the orientation of the rotor button when you pull the dissy out so it can go back the correct way, Theory says that with the drive dog being offset it shouldn't go back the wrong way - but I've seen evidence that its possible to put it in 180 degrees out of wack.

robaly take 15 minutes for a expert - say an hour tops first time.

[smellypaddler]

Thanks mate.

I'll be off to Burwood radiators for a chat on Tuesday and I'll check under the dizzy cap as well.

Hopefully the water pump will turn up on MOnday and then I'll be set.

I have a good spare battery kicking around at the moment so once the overheating is sorted it'll be dual battery time.

I'll keep everyone posted next week.

[smellypaddler]

aaaarrrrggggghhhhh.

Not only was the water pump fine when I removed it but after putting it all back together and fitting the electric pump it still overheats. I couldn't even get it off the driveway.

I wasn't able to get the water pump out before |I had my one and only opportunity this week to buy a replacement so I am now the proud owner of an extra water pump that I don't need.

I'm off to the radiator place tomorrow to see about getting this one cleaned or buying another.

The saga continues

[MightyMouse]

Have you run the engine without the thermostat as I suggested earlier - what your describing happens if the stat isnt operating correctly

Ive seen this happen top of the engine stinking hot - bottom radiator hose stone cold.

It cost nothing to try.

[smellypaddler]

I haven't run it with the thermostat removed but did pull both thermostats that I own out of the car and test them in a saucepan. they both opened fully at the right temperature.

I just put the whole car back together so rather than pull i tout again I'll run it up to temp and then see if the bottom hose has warmed up.

I'm taking the radiator to be cleaned this arvo so should be able to rule that one out soon.

[smellypaddler]

Continuing the saga and a newly cored radiator is going in tomorrow. The old one was 80% blocked

I rang one place up close to home and he wanted $212 just to clean it and $350 for a re-core. The next place was going to clean it for $80 but when I got there he basically said it wasn't worth it and so a re-core was arranged for $275.

Should be ready in the morning.

[smellypaddler]

UPDATE.

The re-core radiator went in and still it overheated.

Thinking the thermostat was fine after testing it in a saucepan I hadn't actually tried running the car without it until today. Well that was definatley the culprit. I've never seen the engine run so cool.

I was a bit dissapointed with the flow from the electric water pump until I tried it without the thermostat in. It now looks like a river flowing through the top tank.


So if your Fez is overheating this is what I did and the cost:


1. clogged radiator
Re-cored the radiator - $275. Twin core with the fattest tubes that could fit.

2. defective thermostat.
You must try running the car without the thermostat for a proper diagnosis. I will try and fit a new ORIGINAL thermostat soon. Cost should be no more than $50

3. defective water pump
Checked original water pump and that was fine. Fitted a Davies Craig electric pump for $165.

4. Defective viscous fan
Re-filled with viscous fluid from Toyota - $30

5. crack engine
I have one now after running too hot for too long. This was not the cause of overheating in my vehicle although it will now need to be fixed.

Total cost of getting the car back to cool - $520

Now I have a lead on a new and better engine, extractors and exhaust so soon the Feroza will be well and truly back in time for the mud

[murcod]

Damn! What a nightmare.

When I bought a genuine thermostat (many years ago now) they were $55 approx. This was after Toyota took over spares.

[monmendoza]

Nice to know that you finally found the culprit. Congratulations.