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Highway-Star wrote:This post is for the people still bound up with the engine suitability debate, here is some extra info for your own interpretation:
so ok working with the 175kW 168kg alloytec (more favourable then said 3.8), compared to 47kW and about 70kg G13A. I'll assume about a 900kg Sierra.
Now for the vaunted power to weight ratio (from my various possibly dodgy sources):
Suzuki Motors:
G13A: 19.15kg per kW
G16B: 13.85kg per kW
H20A: 9.5kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H25A: 8.19kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H27A: 7.04kg per kW (Mass estimated)
GM Motors:
Alloytec: 5.7kg per kW
Ecotec: 6.9kg per kW (Mass estimated)
So what does this mean? not much really. But to get a comparable power to weight ratio from a N/A Zook motor, a H27A would be suitable. Yes the 3.8 is allot cheaper, so that makes it attractive to some.
Does anybody have the actual mass of the 3.8 V6? or the mass of the H series zook motors?
I found the weight of the "alloytec" 3.6L V6, it is apparently 168kg!
Gearboxs are different again.
For the point of this post I will neglect the mass of 60series diffs.
Anyway have fun peoples
VP era v6 sturggle to get 125kw (approx factory output when new). A well used one would be around 110kw or so.
Layto....
I see where you are coming from with the well used motor, however most 1.3s in Sierra seem to be well worn, so I will continue to neglect this for now. There are many other flaws in this uberuber simplified analysis as well.
OK, so adding that to the list:
VP 3.8: 8.4kg per kW
And some Toyota options:
3RZ: 8.8kg per kW (Mass seems to be about 150kg....?)
The 3rz seems close to the early 3800 commo motor, and they are a newer motor too. Plus the added bonus of 4cyl rego. The H25A zook motor becomes comparable to the levels of these motors.
There are tonnes more motors that would be fun to look at from this perspective, however I dont have all the data.
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
I would be look at the 3rz as well, cheap enough, very very tough (you can rev the guts out of em all day and night for about 300,000 Kms ) so long as you service it regular.
It weighs less than the 3.8, does not spit out oil pumps and crush lifters and you can use a dudlux gbox and tcase.
The 3.8 is not a bad motor ... heaps of bommadores still about.
The issues are going to be length of your engine and gearbox combo, if you use a shorty C4 you will regain some precious inches of driveline length (even if you extend the chassis front and rear and relocate the fuel tank etc) you will still wind up with a pretty short front and rear driveline. With some fancy schmancy drive shafts that most likey will cost more than the rest of the motor and suspension (cannot cheap out here other second hand stuff just wont do what you need) you may get away with it OK.
The cooling especially in a SWB will be tricky as the V6 is a hot motor (iron blocks just dont dissapate heat like alloy one) you will need a very high qulity or very large radiator, one you may not have room for in the engine bay anymore. So its time to remote mount it out the back .. again a place with not alot of room in a SWB as I assume you will want to keep a spare tyre, tools, recovery gear etc there.
Can it be done, yep.
Can it be done on a sesible budget .. I dont think so.
If I were to have a go at this I would start with a dudlux chassis V6 it (hell 4.0 lexus v8 it) an make a Zuk body fit on top.
Would be a more suitable, heaps easier, more durable in the long run and way easier to engineer.
Its your money ... you seem set on a V6 Zuk .. lots of unplanned $$ get used up on details you don't realise until its all to late and the project dies...fitting a motor this size and weight to a Zuk chassis and body properly is going to be neither cheap, easy or quick.
Keep us posted on the progress and good luck.
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
I have a spent a long time discussing Otis with Pat Callinan.
OT.
What did Pat C. have to say about Otis in the end? Did he still love it or had he realised it's.........shortcomings.
Aahhhh! ...............the Beast! (no not Otis, Pat or gwagensteve)
Many beers were consumed and many things discussed and of that particular part of the night I don't remember all of the conversation but I did wake up ok which is more than can be said for some
I think spending the night in the Brewery was a better idea than camping in the snow that night.
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Highway-Star wrote:This post is for the people still bound up with the engine suitability debate, here is some extra info for your own interpretation:
so ok working with the 175kW 168kg alloytec (more favourable then said 3.8), compared to 47kW and about 70kg G13A. I'll assume about a 900kg Sierra.
Now for the vaunted power to weight ratio (from my various possibly dodgy sources):
Suzuki Motors:
G13A: 19.15kg per kW
G16B: 13.85kg per kW
H20A: 9.5kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H25A: 8.19kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H27A: 7.04kg per kW (Mass estimated)
GM Motors:
Alloytec: 5.7kg per kW
Ecotec: 6.9kg per kW (Mass estimated)
So what does this mean? not much really. But to get a comparable power to weight ratio from a N/A Zook motor, a H27A would be suitable. Yes the 3.8 is allot cheaper, so that makes it attractive to some.
Does anybody have the actual mass of the 3.8 V6? or the mass of the H series zook motors?
I found the weight of the "alloytec" 3.6L V6, it is apparently 168kg!
Gearboxs are different again.
For the point of this post I will neglect the mass of 60series diffs.
Anyway have fun peoples
Alloytec motors have quad cams as apposed to pushrods and a big ass timing system to go with it among other things adding to weight. Still a 3.8 is a big lump of cast iron also and makes less power. I can see the 147kw an ecotec V6 makes being easily attainable with a turboed 4cyl.
Highway-Star wrote:This post is for the people still bound up with the engine suitability debate, here is some extra info for your own interpretation:
so ok working with the 175kW 168kg alloytec (more favourable then said 3.8), compared to 47kW and about 70kg G13A. I'll assume about a 900kg Sierra.
Now for the vaunted power to weight ratio (from my various possibly dodgy sources):
Suzuki Motors:
G13A: 19.15kg per kW
G16B: 13.85kg per kW
H20A: 9.5kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H25A: 8.19kg per kW (Mass estimated)
H27A: 7.04kg per kW (Mass estimated)
GM Motors:
Alloytec: 5.7kg per kW
Ecotec: 6.9kg per kW (Mass estimated)
So what does this mean? not much really. But to get a comparable power to weight ratio from a N/A Zook motor, a H27A would be suitable. Yes the 3.8 is allot cheaper, so that makes it attractive to some.
Does anybody have the actual mass of the 3.8 V6? or the mass of the H series zook motors?
I found the weight of the "alloytec" 3.6L V6, it is apparently 168kg!
Gearboxs are different again.
For the point of this post I will neglect the mass of 60series diffs.
Anyway have fun peoples
Alloytec motors have quad cams as apposed to pushrods and a big ass timing system to go with it among other things adding to weight. Still a 3.8 is a big lump of cast iron also and makes less power. I can see the 147kw an ecotec V6 makes being easily attainable with a turboed 4cyl.
Im not very familiar with the engine details. Anyhow the recourse I used stated similar, that the savings of the alloytec over the ecotec mass wise are quite poor considering the adoption of an alloy engine block (equivenet volume casting subsitution should yield savings near 3x lighter on that part). I found 2 source stating that alloytecs come in at 168kg, I went with an assumption of 200kg for the 2 3800 motors (maybe they are significantly different to this?). I thought it was a fair assumption.
I agree with the 4cyl thing,. for example when I was quickly looking for the mass of the 3RZ, there were some mental figures claimed from them by some of the ricer types.
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
Ahhh, the beast, I saw a mention of the Jamieson Brewery the other day and a shivered a little bit
It was a long and boozy conversation, but I think the general gist of it was that it took so long to sort all the problems out and so many jobs were done more than once that it just wasn't worth the pain, and really, Pat just got carried away with it - It was a good tool for the magazine though. I recall he felt he would have been better off leaving it much closer to stock.
As for the commodore motor -
Really, who cares if you own the motor? Just because you own it and someone else has done the conversion before doesn't make it a good idea. I have a new reco carby 1.6 and trimatic sitting at home but the motor sure isn't going to go into anything I build - because it's not a good swap, regardless of the fact I own it. (The gearbox might though)
Really, the key would be to drive a couple of 1.6 engined cars. The Baleno 1.6/trimatic car I built drives really nicely even on 35" tyres. They really have plenty of power (in EFI form) and it's an easy, elegant swap.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
VR Rodeo wrote:I must have missed the part where the original poster asked what engines can I put in my car other then a V6 commodore one
since when does a thread have to stay exactly as asked. The whole point of the forum is to exchange ideas. There is great tech here about alternatives to an engine swap that too most people isn't the best answer. What is wrong with supplying better solutions?
Highway-Star wrote:
I agree with the 4cyl thing,. for example when I was quickly looking for the mass of the 3RZ, there were some mental figures claimed from them by some of the ricer types.
I'm pretty sure ARE (as in the radiator mob) were building a 1000hp 3RZ motored car.
VR Rodeo wrote:I must have missed the part where the original poster asked what engines can I put in my car other then a V6 commodore one
since when does a thread have to stay exactly as asked. The whole point of the forum is to exchange ideas. There is great tech here about alternatives to an engine swap that too most people isn't the best answer. What is wrong with supplying better solutions?
What, you mean beside the fact that it doesn't answer the question that was originally asked ?
The thread title says 3.8 V6 Questions, the original question was how do I go about doing it ? After the first page of posts telling him he is stupid for considering it, he should use such and such motor, I imagine he would have been able to work out that it isnt a widely accepted option. And yet he still posted again stating that he has the motor and will be doing the conversion and here we are 3 pages down the track with very little tech posted answering the original question.
Had the original question been along the lines of ' What is the best motor to put in my car ?' then I can understand offering different options.
At any rate I doubt the original poster is still reading this, and has given up on finding out any useful info on HIS conversion.
Last edited by VR Rodeo on Wed May 13, 2009 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
yes i am still following the post, i havn't reply'd too much because like it was just said... none of it answered the question that i asked! I am well aware that 95% of people are against the idea but i don't really care. The engine is going in the car lol. pics soon...
i know engine choices are not required but for all the other people offering choices here is something they might not have ever heard of that might sound ok
VG20DET
The VG20DET is an 2.0L engine with DOHC and a turbocharger. It produces 210 hp (160 kW).
It was used in the following vehicles:
Nissan Leopard (F31)
Nissan Gloria/Nissan Cedric (Y31)
flyinwall wrote:i know engine choices are not required but for all the other people offering choices here is something they might not have ever heard of that might sound ok
VG20DET
The VG20DET is an 2.0L engine with DOHC and a turbocharger. It produces 210 hp (160 kW).
It was used in the following vehicles:
Nissan Leopard (F31)
Nissan Gloria/Nissan Cedric (Y31)
The issue with any of the VG series is the physical size, they are a very wide motor, fitting one in a Zuk (sierra or Vit) may not be all that simple.
" If governments are involved in the covering up the knowledge of aliens, Then they are doing a much better job of it than they do of everything else "
suzukigav wrote:yes i am still following the post, i havn't reply'd too much because like it was just said... none of it answered the question that i asked! I am well aware that 95% of people are against the idea but i don't really care. The engine is going in the car lol. pics soon...
Mate go and see athol Mullins, [sp] as he has passed a few commie v6. Suzuki's he will help you, with what you have to do.
regards
james
slugs are just snails that sold their belongings for drug money
Dream as if you'll live forever, live like you'll die today.
Powered by Pals, Motivated by Mates.
i looked into putting one in a sierra and found the biggest problem (other that the weight) was the gear box. its a bloody big box (th700) compared to the sierra 5 speed.
you'll need to make a new trans tunnel, chassis wont be able to handle the extra toque and its a lot of weight up the front ( the weight of the box and how far back it will sit helps but not much) of the car and the engine is a tight fit in the engine bay thats just for starters. then you run into things like the rear shaft being very short so you'll kill unis, sierra tcase having to be moved back as well (if i will handle it) or replaced with some things else. i was thinking 60 series as thats what diffs i was putting in.
why do people bag out these engines? they are very good bit of gear and last a long time having the guts flogged out of them, thats why commodores are liked buy young p platers. in std for they made more power that any carby 308 ever did. have roller cams and you can get good power out of them with very little work.
i never got round to doing it (had a kid and moved interstate) and had to sell the project but i did decide it was to much work for the v6 as i did want to drive the car on the road and use to go by the lines " there is no replacement for displacement" from my street car days. for a car thats road driven i'd just go a turbo 1.3 or 1.6 with the right gearing. more than enough power and very easy to do.
if your still keen, have the skills do it and prove every one wrong!! don't be a sheep and follow what every one else says you should do just because they think they are the be all and end all of how a sierra should be built.
If you can see what i mean about having to remove the latch for the bonnet and the metal surround. I didnt do this and mounted my radiator underneath the latch but it was a pain to fill the radiator.
I also cut the inner gaurds to get easy access to the sides of the motor but had to brace them as there isnt much else connecting front panels to the firewall.
zook4fun wrote:i looked into putting one in a sierra and found the biggest problem (other that the weight) was the gear box. its a bloody big box (th700) compared to the sierra 5 speed.
you'll need to make a new trans tunnel, chassis wont be able to handle the extra toque and its a lot of weight up the front ( the weight of the box and how far back it will sit helps but not much) of the car and the engine is a tight fit in the engine bay thats just for starters. then you run into things like the rear shaft being very short so you'll kill unis, sierra tcase having to be moved back as well (if i will handle it) or replaced with some things else. i was thinking 60 series as thats what diffs i was putting in.
Going a little away from my knowledge base here, but I'll float an idea. A smaller 4spd auto option for the V6 Commodore motor, don't use the Turbo700, look at one of the Aisin-Warner auto boxes.
In this Toyota thread ( www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic165315.php ) an interesting bit of info was raised about using rodeo/Jackaroo bellhousings to bolt a 3800 to a AW auto. Maybe (I genuinly am not sure) a Rodeo/Jackaroo auto might be a gearbox option for commo conversions?
Really stretching it here.... If the Isuzu bellhousing suits an AW box, arn't the Vitara 4spd autos AW's? If so you could maybe fit one of them???
This might be a bit out there, but for some reason I thought of it ...
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
mrRocky wrote:If you can see what i mean about having to remove the latch for the bonnet and the metal surround. I didnt do this and mounted my radiator underneath the latch but it was a pain to fill the radiator.
I also cut the inner gaurds to get easy access to the sides of the motor but had to brace them as there isnt much else connecting front panels to the firewall.
HEADLINE
"Suzuki drive impaled on his own booty fab after crashing head first into a parked car"
Dude your RHS needs to go.
[quote="Harb"]Well I'm guessing that they didn't think everyone would carry on like a big bunch of sooky girls over it like they have........[/quote]
I did reinforce the firewall with about 7" of 3mm plate each side before she was up and running. The car was that high anyway i would have had to crash into a sea container for it to crumple and stab me. It was mainly when moving the bodyshell on the crane that i felt with the gaurd section removed the front may have bent in half. Someone elses prob now.
zook4fun wrote:i looked into putting one in a sierra and found the biggest problem (other that the weight) was the gear box. its a bloody big box (th700) compared to the sierra 5 speed.
you'll need to make a new trans tunnel, chassis wont be able to handle the extra toque and its a lot of weight up the front ( the weight of the box and how far back it will sit helps but not much) of the car and the engine is a tight fit in the engine bay thats just for starters. then you run into things like the rear shaft being very short so you'll kill unis, sierra tcase having to be moved back as well (if i will handle it) or replaced with some things else. i was thinking 60 series as thats what diffs i was putting in.
Now that's the best tech idea in this thread so far. Going a little away from my knowledge base here, but I'll float an idea. A smaller 4spd auto option for the V6 Commodore motor, don't use the Turbo700, look at one of the Aisin-Warner auto boxes.
In this Toyota thread ( www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic165315.php ) an interesting bit of info was raised about using rodeo/Jackaroo bellhousings to bolt a 3800 to a AW auto. Maybe (I genuinly am not sure) a Rodeo/Jackaroo auto might be a gearbox option for commo conversions?
Really stretching it here.... If the Isuzu bellhousing suits an AW box, arn't the Vitara 4spd autos AW's? If so you could maybe fit one of them???
This might be a bit out there, but for some reason I thought of it ...
In this Toyota thread ( www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic165315.php ) an interesting bit of info was raised about using rodeo/Jackaroo bellhousings to bolt a 3800 to a AW auto. Maybe (I genuinly am not sure) a Rodeo/Jackaroo auto might be a gearbox option for commo conversions?
Really stretching it here.... If the Isuzu bellhousing suits an AW box, arn't the Vitara 4spd autos AW's? If so you could maybe fit one of them???
that info sounds familiar........... oh thats right it was me...
just to give a little bit more info that i think i forgot to mention in that thread was that the modified torque converter is just mods to the converters feet so it can bolt to the v6 flex plate
hope that info helps you out
R.I.P. Darryl "DAZZA" Mutch 02/08/1978 - 26/08/2012 aged 34 years ... You will be missed my little brother.
FC3892 wrote:After i said we have had no issues...
Went in with 4x4
didn't come out with it
to much load, an to much power = snapped uni
there you go folks, another top outerlimits top tip, if you want to make your suzuki into a rather neat boat anchor install an australian v6 into it, add chain and there you have it
just razzing, if this ends up working out for gav i am going to f8ind him a drover grill
-[b]Santos[/b][img]http://www.teamswift.net/images/smilies/icon_furious.gif[/img]
Suzuki, Jeep & Toyota Soft tops with welded seams for SALE (PM me)
Santos wrote:
just razzing, if this ends up working out for gav i am going to f8ind him a drover grill
other than snapping a uni it's working great, the extra kg's help the front flex well.
It will sit a wheel on a 44 drum still on all 4 now. As for the grill, u wont see it much from the end u will see lol
i think he may be saying that all cars to get a engineers cert can only increase displacement by a certain amount and im sure that almost tripling the ccs will deem it unregisterable. unless you have mates with green slip tickets. also being comp driven wouldnt reliability be a key issue, well all that power thru a short drive line is going to destroy tail shafts unless you can graft a mack truck shaft into it and mayby 3 double cardon joints into it to stop it vibrating its arse off. thats a few of the things i can see going wrong to start with, like others i personally think that there are alot better engine choices out there.
but its ur time and money so id say just do it. just keep a progress thread please.
and of that particular part of the night I don't remember all of the conversation 
but I did wake up ok which is more than can be said for some 
good luck
Going a little away from my knowledge base here, but I'll float an idea. A smaller 4spd auto option for the V6 Commodore motor, don't use the Turbo700, look at one of the Aisin-Warner auto boxes.
