Quick question about turbo boost

[brad 93hilux]

I have a Hilux 3.0L EFI diesel with a turboglide turbo kit and a adjustable computer module from Turbo Tech in WA.

Now when i took it there i asked it to be dyno'd on the first 4 settings for the computer module and set it how they thought it should..

When i drove it away it was on setting 3 and the turbo was hitting a max of 14psi boost.... Now this cant be good on a factory engine with a turbo bolted on.

I have turned the module down to setting 1 and it hits max boost around 10-11psi, i shortened the rod between the waste gate and actuator 2 turns.

Now when i shortened the rod i did not notice the boost to reduce... What effect am i going to have to shorten the rod more? or am i going the wrong way?

Cheers Brad

[Gav75]

I'm not sure, I may be wrong, but I think shortening the actuator rod will make the turbo spool up slower. You will still get to max psi but it will take longer??? Most poeple lengthen the rod so the turbo spools up quicker to boost at lower rpm. This is what I think happens but if I'm wrong let me know cause I wouldn't mind doing the actuator rod mod.

EDIT: I don't think 14 psi is to much boost. I have a stock Toyo CT26 and I have at set at about 12.5 to 13 psi. On this turbo 14 is considered an acceptable boost pressure. Anymore than that though and you are running the risk of turbo failure.

Cheers,

Gav.

[NutterGQ]

buy shortening the rod you are actually changing pre load, it will not reduce boost but can cause spiking if turned too tight or boost leaking if left too loose.

[NutterGQ]

double post

[brad 93hilux]

yeh i have a T25 garret turbo so not sure bout the difference between the ct26 and t25, but i was more thinking i might have a chance of blowing the motor (i read on the net that the 3.0L hilux diesel cannot handle the boost- did not state what boost but)

Not sure

[92mav]

there are two 3litre hilux motors were yo u looking at the right one. i broke two cranks in my 5l
Brad

[brad 93hilux]

i have a 5LE motor from a 2004 hilux....

i thought all the 5L's were the same only the 5LE had the computerised fuel injection....

is 12.5 - 13psi an acceptable boost, because i had a 2.8 D before and killed it running 11psi

[Z()LTAN]

assuming you have no direct waste gate control your boost is controlled by fuel supply.

The computer settings will add/reduce your air/fuel ratio thus increasing/decreasing your boost respectively.

If your computer senses waste gate pressure as well as air/fuel then it will control boost by supplying the waste gate actuator with the desired opening pressure, lean out the A/F when wasting and richen when boosting.

To externally gain up control of Boost itself you need to install a air bleed on the waste gate sensing line.

To gain down control of boost you need to install a lower opening actuator.

If your actuator opening pressure is directly controlled by the computer then any adjustments need to be done through the computer.

14psi max will be suitable for your 5LE motor

[brad 93hilux]

assuming you have no direct waste gate control your boost is controlled by fuel supply.

The computer settings will add/reduce your air/fuel ratio thus increasing/decreasing your boost respectively.

If your computer senses waste gate pressure as well as air/fuel then it will control boost by supplying the waste gate actuator with the desired opening pressure, lean out the A/F when wasting and richen when boosting.

To externally gain up control of Boost itself you need to install a air bleed on the waste gate sensing line.

To gain down control of boost you need to install a lower opening actuator.

If your actuator opening pressure is directly controlled by the computer then any adjustments need to be done through the computer.

14psi max will be suitable for your 5LE motor

Yeh, this sounds right as the dyno results go from 64 rear wheel kw at 9psi on setting 1 to 74 rear wheel kw on 12.4psi setting 4.

My gauge however said 13.5 psi on setting 3, maybe there is some kind of fault with my boost gauge also.

I did ask turbotech about the dyno figures and they said they did not adjust the boost to get these figures, but the boost was controlled by the computer- the higher the setting the more fuel- thus more boost.

Might be ok but my boost gauge showing 14psi seemed a little bit extreme and i dont want the stuff the engine like my 2.8 jst by going a bit quicker.

Though there is no sensor on the waste gate, but there is a sensor on the outlet pipe from the turbo.

When you say air bleed, what is it called exactly (air bleed valve)... the actuator what was origionally on the turbo was fixed by turboglide at 9psi and had a non adjustable rod- this was changed by turbotech and a 8psi actuator was installed and a adjustable rod installed... But with this i thought i could adjust it from there...

mmm.... more confused now

[brad 93hilux]

NOTE: i now have 32's and 4.88's, i mostly drive on highways and the truck is basically sitting on max boost the whole time...

I drive 600kms to and from perth ever week...

[Z()LTAN]

wow it must me screaming its head off with the 4.88's and 32's!!!!

The actuator rod will not change boost at all.

The rod only serves as a linkage from the actuation diaphragm to the waste gate arm. Shortening it will increase the force holding the gate closed holding in boost pressure better. (this is what you want)

Boost is regulated by waste gate actuation or air/fuel only

[brad 93hilux]

wow it must me screaming its head off with the 4.88's and 32's!!!!

The actuator rod will not change boost at all.

The rod only serves as a linkage from the actuation diaphragm to the waste gate arm. Shortening it will increase the force holding the gate closed holding in boost pressure better. (this is what you want)

Boost is regulated by waste gate actuation or air/fuel only

Yeh thanks for that....

100km/h - 3000rpm and 110 3150rpm...

Not too bad but still a bit on the high side, once i've finished working in wa ill be coming back to NSW and going 4wding again.... so the diff ratios ill have to deal with for now..

Whats the idea behind the bleed valve you were saying? i only know of a boost controll valve (i know how that works) or is that what you were talking about?

Cheers brad

[zagan]

The only real way to find out what the max boost on the motor would be, is to increase boost until something breaks.

Your setting 3 is only doing 1 bar of boost, you might need to sus out what the EGTs are? as it's probably the extra fuel that's pushing up the exhaust temp and spinning the turbine a bit faster.

The rod your shorting is for the internal waste gate you'll be adjusting at what point the boost is controlled at, shorting the rod should reduce the amount of boost created as the waste gate will open sooner and allow exhaust gas to pass around the turbine wheel.

As for the lack of any effect... have you tried running setting 3 again to see what the boost is, it should be less than before, if your running setting 1 it might not be getting up to the point where the waste gate is limiting the boost and keeping it steady.

[brad 93hilux]

yeh ill have another look and play with the settings, i have a egt gauge and on all settings never gets over 330 degrees sitting on full boost up a big hill

Even when i had it overfueling before it went on the dyno it never got over 400 degrees (the thermocoupling is only 60mm from outlet on the turbo)

Ill move it back to setting 3 and see what it does and might try to shorten it another 2 turns and see what it does

EDIT: yeh when i shortened the rod 2 turns the first time i then ran it on setting 3 and thats where i seen no change.

[300WinMag]

I would be more concerned about your EGT's than boost as that is what really kills these motors. Some people back the boost off without resetting there pump so there is less oxygen for the same amount of fuel. My father had a 2.8 rollux with garret turbo since new, no waste gate just tuned to EGT's and it did 250K when he sold it still going strong not burning oil.
For boost control though you decrease preload on your waste gate by lengthening the rod, this will also increase spool up time on turbo as more gas is leaking past the waste gate causing waste gate creap, not good as your loosing efficiency. You want a gated manual boost control valve, (E- Bay) which is bassicaly a ajustable pressure relief vavle, this with stop any pressure getting to the waste gate actuator until it reaches the desired amount, therefore speeding up spool time increasing efficiency, less black smoke more fuel economy and better acceleration.
I would be putting a EGT gauge in ASAP and use your fuel controller to set it so EGT's don't get over 500 Deg C when your driving up the biggest longest hill you can find.
I have been using manual boost controller for the past 4yrs running 20psi in my Rodeo 2.8 and my patrol TD42 driven 4K in 3 days no worries big hills NSW EGT's never got over 450Deg C Water to Air intercooler.
I wouldn't run any more than 14psi in your hilux though not being a factory turbo, 12 would be safer.

[brad 93hilux]

i have tried to back it off anothe 2 full turns and still no change, which is a total of 4 full turns...

I rang turbotech and they have told me that as long as the egt's are ok there is no problem. that it is not the boost pressure that will kill the motor but high EGT's...

Which is what you guys have told me....

Ill turn the rod back to the way it was and drive it, but the engine must have huge compression at nearly 14psi for a 4cyl...

Brad

[Gav75]

This is an interesting thread.

WinMag, is your EGT probe mounted pre or post turbo? With the tempratures your talking about I would think post turbo. I have an EGT gauge ready to go into my cruiser but I'm doing research on where to fit the probe before I find the time to install it.

I have heard pre turbo is the way to go but if the probe fails it will destroy the turbo and engine and its also a bigger job to install pre turbo.

Any thoughts?

[LUX90]

Lengthening the rod will decrease boost, but it will depend on the boost pressure of the actuator itself. The rod pushes outwards from the canister to open the wastegate. Therefore the shorter that rod is the further it has to travel to open the wastegate.

The shorter you make that rod the longer it takes for the actuator to traval far enough to get the wastegate open and limit the boost.

A boost controller won't help this much as they are usually used to gain boost by reducing the boost pressure being fed into the actuator, once again making it take longer to open.

[yamaha__308]

I have heard pre turbo is the way to go but if the probe fails it will destroy the turbo and engine and its also a bigger job to install pre turbo.

Any thoughts?

I wouldnt worry about a probe failing. The one i got from Auber Instruments in the states is pretty solid and cant see it falling apart.



Best bet would be to run it pre-turbo for more accurate and faster readings.

[brad 93hilux]

Lengthening the rod will decrease boost, but it will depend on the boost pressure of the actuator itself. The rod pushes outwards from the canister to open the wastegate. Therefore the shorter that rod is the further it has to travel to open the wastegate.

The shorter you make that rod the longer it takes for the actuator to traval far enough to get the wastegate open and limit the boost.

A boost controller won't help this much as they are usually used to gain boost by reducing the boost pressure being fed into the actuator, once again making it take longer to open.

The actuator that i had on the turbo kit origionally was a 9psi one with a fixed rod, it was then changed by turbotech to a 8psi actuator with a adjustable rod (as i asked to have it set a 8psi...not even close)

i am now currently running setting 2 which has a max boost of 11psi- bit scared of running setting 3 still as it was hitting 13.5-14psi before i turned the module down.

Note: i drove today 450kms and on this setting the egt's did not get above 310 degrees...

[beinthemud]

I have heard pre turbo is the way to go but if the probe fails it will destroy the turbo and engine and its also a bigger job to install pre turbo.

Any thoughts?

I wouldnt worry about a probe failing. The one i got from Auber Instruments in the states is pretty solid and cant see it falling apart.



Best bet would be to run it pre-turbo for more accurate and faster readings.

Thats sexy
I just extended the hose from the turbo to the wastegate to around 2mtrs
Stops waste gate creep and allows the turbo to spool up quicker.
10 TO 12psi in a 3.0ltr toyo should be ok there prety tough engine .
You might consider a slightly bigger turbo for long hauls
But it running on full boost will if its not getting hot only make it get old before its time
The t25 can run 20psi all day the t26 is a ball bearing turbo from memory but may suit you better.

[Gav75]

Yep that probe looks sic. I have an AutoMeter Pyro. I spose if the gauge goes up to 1600F the probe can handle that much and the engine will be toast long before it reaches that temprature.

We'll this coming weekend I'm hoping to install new shocks, caster shims, extended sway bar connects and the Pyro. Cant wait till I get the goodies into the cruiser. Then it will ride way better and I can start playing with the fuel to get a good power/fuel consumption mix. I think my pump has been tweaked so I want to nudge it back a bit so I burn all the fuel going through the engine. I have a bit of black smoke at the moment.

Cheers,

Gav.

[beinthemud]

Probably what they mean is more to do with chipping a bit off it and it going through the turbo but the same could be said for glow plugs seen the tips break of and smash a turbo.
As theres no allowence in a turbo to let thing through the tend to give the exhaust propeller a hammering

[yamaha__308]

I just extended the hose from the turbo to the wastegate to around 2mtrs
Stops waste gate creep and allows the turbo to spool up quicker.

Sorry, could you explain this bit? So you've got 2m of hose coiled up?

[beinthemud]

As little as i could , Ran it to the front then back with no tight turn or tigh coils

[300WinMag]

Yes my pyro is post turbo and I allow + 100deg C for internal engine temps. I was running 20PSI in my 94 Rodeo intercooled 84RWKW it was a weapon, sold it to get my SWB TD42 Patrol 20PSI intercoooled 112RWKW, it mostly gets used as a tourer. Dyno tuned both vehicals myself on a mates dyno, never had any problems with EGT's. More boost = more oxygen if you intercool it aswell will help to burn all fuel more efficiently and keep EGT's down. How ever I would be very careful going over 12 psi in a 3.0ltr NA motor as they are not the same internally as a 3.0ltr turbo motor, lighter bottom end, no oil squirters, lighter pistons and rods.
Brad you need to find out what pressure your waste gate actuator operates at. Did the Turbo kit come with a warranty that covers your motor? If so you have already voided it buy adjusting the actuator rod.

Manual boost controllers (gated ones) can be set at a lower pressure than the waste gate actuator. I have a mate who was complaining that his GQ ute didn't have as much power as when they first installed the turbo, we installed a boost gauge and found the turbo was very slugish, had to rev the crap out of it to make 10 PSI under load. I told him to install gated manual boost controller $38 and immediatly this fixed his problem. He set it at 10PSI but his actuator is 13psi fully open. The boost controller just stops waste gate creap therefore speeding up spool time before gas is bleed around the turbine. He could have fitted new actuator aswell but for $38 we fixed two problems.

[brad 93hilux]

Yes my pyro is post turbo and I allow + 100deg C for internal engine temps. I was running 20PSI in my 94 Rodeo intercooled 84RWKW it was a weapon, sold it to get my SWB TD42 Patrol 20PSI intercoooled 112RWKW, it mostly gets used as a tourer. Dyno tuned both vehicals myself on a mates dyno, never had any problems with EGT's. More boost = more oxygen if you intercool it aswell will help to burn all fuel more efficiently and keep EGT's down. How ever I would be very careful going over 12 psi in a 3.0ltr NA motor as they are not the same internally as a 3.0ltr turbo motor, lighter bottom end, no oil squirters, lighter pistons and rods.
Brad you need to find out what pressure your waste gate actuator operates at. Did the Turbo kit come with a warranty that covers your motor? If so you have already voided it buy adjusting the actuator rod.

Manual boost controllers (gated ones) can be set at a lower pressure than the waste gate actuator. I have a mate who was complaining that his GQ ute didn't have as much power as when they first installed the turbo, we installed a boost gauge and found the turbo was very slugish, had to rev the crap out of it to make 10 PSI under load. I told him to install gated manual boost controller $38 and immediatly this fixed his problem. He set it at 10PSI but his actuator is 13psi fully open. The boost controller just stops waste gate creap therefore speeding up spool time before gas is bleed around the turbine. He could have fitted new actuator aswell but for $38 we fixed two problems.

The new actuator is rated 8psi one, and with the warranty... turbo glide offer unlimited kms 2 year warranty- but i had this kit on my 2.8 d for 3 years so there is no warranty valad any way.

So when you installed the gated manual boost controll valve did you leave the way the actuator and waste gate was set up or did you adjust this as well?

[300WinMag]

For my setup I ajusted the waste gate aswell to give it more preload as the old fella who had it before me only ran 8PSI, the turbo is capable of 20PSI and so is the motor so thats where I run it. At 100 km/hr it only sits on 6PSI though.
For your setup it should go forever at 8PSI and the right fuel setting.
I take it you have a PYRO fitted aready?
Any plans on intercooling it?

[berad]

Can you run another setting in your adj ecu, to pull more fuel out on the hi-way to pull the boost down.

[brad 93hilux]

yeh i turn the module down and the boost goes down, on setting 1 it is about 9psi and setting 2 is 11 psi....

I could turn it down but does not have as much power as i would like on setting 1 so thats why i'm on 2.

Ye i plan later installing a waterto air cooler but am heaps busy working away, plus i have a bit of a issue finding a place for the radiator.

At 100km/h on a perfectly flat road it is sitting on 6-8 psi and only the slightst headwind or hill and it is full boost all the way.