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2010 & Beyond Update of XWC, EFS XI & EFS TEAMS
Moderator: evanstaniland
Holy Crap !! I go away for a week and you guys run amuck !First I agree one day when Dave`s finished with the farm truck we should get her bronzed and put her up out the front of Bathurst!!! Secondly How can a common motor like a gen forsed be classed as expensive?3rd Why do you need to make more rules?The idea of a race is to get from one point to the next in the fastest possible time isn`t it ? why over complicate it? In my way of thinking Dave you are leaving yourself open to what i call Un Australian behavour where bitching about your fellow competitor goes on.Your event is a good one and you have the right to do what you want with it but because a car has hp dosen`t mean it`s over budget and as far as safty go`s a spectator standing on a log that a 2500kg race truck is racing over needs addressing before engine peneltys do.Mad eng, do you really think 1 car finishing out of 15 keeps the sport affordable?Anyway peace out guy`s and build the car you want and race it where you can..
Inya Racing..
same as wilba go away for week and it goes wild.
digsy red bull doesn't need to sponsor a truck i do enough promo for them and probably fund all the trucks in the usa with the amount i drink.
I have already hit up Red Bull, Monster Energy and Rockstar to get in on my truck after its finished but they all say that the events i race aren't comercially viable as they aren't on commercial tv etc like the finke and other off road events in australia and the states, maybe those events seem more comercially viable because they are CAMS events and have regular air time not to sure.
digsy red bull doesn't need to sponsor a truck i do enough promo for them and probably fund all the trucks in the usa with the amount i drink.
I have already hit up Red Bull, Monster Energy and Rockstar to get in on my truck after its finished but they all say that the events i race aren't comercially viable as they aren't on commercial tv etc like the finke and other off road events in australia and the states, maybe those events seem more comercially viable because they are CAMS events and have regular air time not to sure.
GQ SWB
Twin Turbo
F & R Air lockers
Roll Cage
Loose Nut Behind the Wheel
LOOKING FOR SPONSORS???
mum can't afford it anymore! hahaha
Twin Turbo
F & R Air lockers
Roll Cage
Loose Nut Behind the Wheel
LOOKING FOR SPONSORS???
mum can't afford it anymore! hahaha
Re: 2010 & Beyond Update of XWC, EFS XI & EFS TEAMS
XTREME MMM wrote:
1:- Turbo's and Superchargers can only be fitted to the original engine (if under 4350cc) of that model of vehicle used.
Seeing as Hilux's only had 4cyl motors, can I use a 1UZFE V8 with a blower ? seeing as it's under 4.35l displacement
Ban Warning labels and let Darwinism rule![img]http://www.downunder4x4.net/forum/images/smilies/pray.gif[/img]
Re: 2010 & Beyond Update of XWC, EFS XI & EFS TEAMS
Breaker Brother wrote:XTREME MMM wrote:
1:- Turbo's and Superchargers can only be fitted to the original engine (if under 4350cc) of that model of vehicle used.
Seeing as Hilux's only had 4cyl motors, can I use a 1UZFE V8 with a blower ? seeing as it's under 4.35l displacement
it says you can supercharge the origonal motor if it is less than 4.35 litres, a 1uzfe is not the origonal motor and should attract the penalty, if I am reading the rule right
Paul
91 FJ 80 Project on the go - air lockers, 3in lift, super duper 3F, 36" pedes, toyota V8 getting prepped now
RULE CHANGES
BRING ON THE RULES DAVE GOOD STUFF I THINK ILL COME TO ALL YOUR EVENTS IN MY SLOW OLD DIESEL .
2010 onwards xwc
I would like to thank people that have taken the time to submit constructive comments both on this board and private emails and phone calls regards changes to the way that Xtreme 4X4 Sport will conduct the XWC in years to come.
I have no self interest in introducing these handicaps, except for the long term future of the sport. I have done this in the past, introduction of roll cages, helmets etc. Numbers did drop off for a very short time. I smile now, for just a short time down the track, all events require these safety measures. So will we see other events now take on the task of trying to make a more level playing field?
A lot of comments have been made, so over the last week I have put together a handicap system that I hope will make the playing field a little bit more level.
Classes in Xtreme 4X4 Sport Events will stay the same as in the past. All Classes will be open to this handicap system.
This handicap system is designed for what I do – that is a “Winch Challenge” format.
As there are a few Queensland Teams who compete at the OBC & Cliffhanger I do not want to ban an item that has now become a necessary part in vehicle build up for this style of event etc V8, non Standard Engines, Coilovers & Forced Induction.
But if you chose to use these modifications in an Xtreme 4X4 Sport event be prepared to start with a handicap.
The growth of this sport has been very fast and I feel that these changes should have been made a few years ago. I have given a lot of notice on up coming changes and it will give the competitors a chance to build to a guideline for the future.
So before you go off and start complaining think about it and you will find it is a fair system.
Regards,
David Metcalfe
Competition Manager
Xtreme 4X4 Sport
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2010
• Genuine chassis, from rear most suspension point to forward most suspension point. You are allowed to shorten/lengthen and reinforce as needed.
• Service Station (everyday) pump fuel only.
• 100ml additive per 100lts allowed.
• Full doors, guards and bonnet to resemble the make of vehicle competing and be individual parts. Doors, guards and bonnet must be constructed of steel/alloy or composite material
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2011
The maximum handicap for 2011 is a total of 25 points per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 10 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 15 points
• Coilovers – 5 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Maximum Engine Size:- Petrol 6050cc & Diesel 7050cc
• Forced induction – 10 points for petrol over 3750cc and diesel over 4370cc
• No hydro steer – steering must work with the motor turned off
• LPG on petrol engines only.
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2012
Handicap for 2012 will be a total of below per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 15 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 25 points
• Coilovers – 10 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Forced induction – 15 points
• Forced induction – 30 points as of 2013
This handicap is for a 3 day event such as XWC or Teams Event. There will no handicap at the XI.
I have no self interest in introducing these handicaps, except for the long term future of the sport. I have done this in the past, introduction of roll cages, helmets etc. Numbers did drop off for a very short time. I smile now, for just a short time down the track, all events require these safety measures. So will we see other events now take on the task of trying to make a more level playing field?
A lot of comments have been made, so over the last week I have put together a handicap system that I hope will make the playing field a little bit more level.
Classes in Xtreme 4X4 Sport Events will stay the same as in the past. All Classes will be open to this handicap system.
This handicap system is designed for what I do – that is a “Winch Challenge” format.
As there are a few Queensland Teams who compete at the OBC & Cliffhanger I do not want to ban an item that has now become a necessary part in vehicle build up for this style of event etc V8, non Standard Engines, Coilovers & Forced Induction.
But if you chose to use these modifications in an Xtreme 4X4 Sport event be prepared to start with a handicap.
The growth of this sport has been very fast and I feel that these changes should have been made a few years ago. I have given a lot of notice on up coming changes and it will give the competitors a chance to build to a guideline for the future.
So before you go off and start complaining think about it and you will find it is a fair system.
Regards,
David Metcalfe
Competition Manager
Xtreme 4X4 Sport
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2010
• Genuine chassis, from rear most suspension point to forward most suspension point. You are allowed to shorten/lengthen and reinforce as needed.
• Service Station (everyday) pump fuel only.
• 100ml additive per 100lts allowed.
• Full doors, guards and bonnet to resemble the make of vehicle competing and be individual parts. Doors, guards and bonnet must be constructed of steel/alloy or composite material
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2011
The maximum handicap for 2011 is a total of 25 points per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 10 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 15 points
• Coilovers – 5 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Maximum Engine Size:- Petrol 6050cc & Diesel 7050cc
• Forced induction – 10 points for petrol over 3750cc and diesel over 4370cc
• No hydro steer – steering must work with the motor turned off
• LPG on petrol engines only.
Xtreme 4X4 Sport Rule Changes – Round 1 2012
Handicap for 2012 will be a total of below per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 15 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 25 points
• Coilovers – 10 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Forced induction – 15 points
• Forced induction – 30 points as of 2013
This handicap is for a 3 day event such as XWC or Teams Event. There will no handicap at the XI.
Last edited by XTREME MMM on Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme 4X4 Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting Angel Flight Australia
Re: 2010 onwards xwc
does the forced induction penalty include diesels here as well?XTREME MMM wrote:Handicap for 2012 will be a total of below per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 15 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 25 points
• Coilovers – 10 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Forced induction – 15 points
• Forced induction – 30 points as of 2013
This handicap is for a 3 day event such as XWC or Teams Event. The XI handicap will be advised in due course.
Re: 2010 onwards xwc
Hi, only applies to diesels over 4370cc. These engine sizes are similar to CAMS engine specs for forced induction, but I have given a little bit more for engine rebuilds. I will change petrol motors on my updated post to 3750cc.mickyd555 wrote:does the forced induction penalty include diesels here as well?XTREME MMM wrote:Handicap for 2012 will be a total of below per event.
• More then one winch motor, altered winch gearing – 15 points
• PTO or hydraulic winches – 25 points
• Coilovers – 10 points
• Engine other then original engine for that model of vehicle – 10 points.
• Forced induction – 15 points
• Forced induction – 30 points as of 2013
This handicap is for a 3 day event such as XWC or Teams Event. The XI handicap will be advised in due course.
When forced induction is used multiply by 1.6 and get engine size.
I have now decided not to apply any handicaps to the XI. Engine size limit as per what has been posted still remains.
Cheers
David Metcalfe
David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme 4X4 Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting Angel Flight Australia
Dave just wondering why you have gone with a points handicap system and not a timed handicap. I assume the points handicap is for the entire event or is it per stage? For example after 12 stages I had a total score of 1083points and had a handicap of 35 does that mean my score know would be 1048 or 663. I believe a timed handicap would be a better and more far way. Doesn't all of the modifications increase the ability of the truck which in turn allows it to complete a stage faster. Therefore why not give them a timed handicap per stage at the start of the event. You could even go as far as saying that you have three types of stages 1. winch 2. winch and speed 3.speed . Therefore penalties for winches may only apply to winch stages and for motor increases may only be for speed stages. At the end of the day it is all about how fast you complete a stage.
_______________________________________
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
unlimited 1 wrote:Dave just wondering why you have gone with a points handicap system and not a timed handicap. I assume the points handicap is for the entire event or is it per stage? For example after 12 stages I had a total score of 1083points and had a handicap of 35 does that mean my score know would be 1048 or 663. I believe a timed handicap would be a better and more far way. Doesn't all of the modifications increase the ability of the truck which in turn allows it to complete a stage faster. Therefore why not give them a timed handicap per stage at the start of the event. You could even go as far as saying that you have three types of stages 1. winch 2. winch and speed 3.speed . Therefore penalties for winches may only apply to winch stages and for motor increases may only be for speed stages. At the end of the day it is all about how fast you complete a stage.
Yes the points handicap is for the full event and not the stage.
I feel that doing a handicap like the way you said would, "A":- Be to hard and "B":- very unfair on the competitor.
Time handicaps for example, if you had a 10 second handicap on each stage that could mean 10 places.
It is far better knowing what you are starting with then not knowing where you are going to be each stage.
Cheers
David
David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme 4X4 Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting Angel Flight Australia
Thanks for the fast reply.
Things only seem hard becasue they have never done them before or there is a lack of planning. I still feel that the modifications that a person makes is to increase their speed therefore taking less time on a stage. That's why i think a time peanlty fits better. This would also make it a more level playing field for the other competitior, because this is what the handicap system is for to give everyone the oppotunity to win stages and overall. A points handicap is an overall penalty. I also beleive that if you where to run with the penalties you have decided on they are not severe enough.
For example winch 15 points, coilovers 10 points, V8 10 points, super charger 15 points total - 50 points. Over 10 stages that is 5 points a stage, come on really, is that a handicap!!
Also on you points system I could have a:
Winch 15, Coilovers 10, V8 10 - 35 points
Turboed TB42 been around for years - 30 points in 2013
How fair is that, not very.
You are correct that a 10 second handicap could be 10 places but on the other hand a 30 second or minute handicap could be no change in place. What the time handicap does though is allow people to know how much they need to push to beat someone. If you have a time handicap you still know what you are starting with. you are starting with a time penalty of 45 seconds.
To make it work grade your stages as winch, speed or both.
You could place there handicap on their winscreen using stickers for example:
S - 25 means - Speed stage 25 seconds
W- 35 means - Winch stage 35 seconds
if it was a speed and winch stage you would add them together.
To inforce the handicap you could either hold them at the start with the clock running for their handicap time or just add it to their final time, I don't see a great difficulty in that.
I do beleive though that the hardest part would be determining how much time is fair to all competitors.
Things only seem hard becasue they have never done them before or there is a lack of planning. I still feel that the modifications that a person makes is to increase their speed therefore taking less time on a stage. That's why i think a time peanlty fits better. This would also make it a more level playing field for the other competitior, because this is what the handicap system is for to give everyone the oppotunity to win stages and overall. A points handicap is an overall penalty. I also beleive that if you where to run with the penalties you have decided on they are not severe enough.
For example winch 15 points, coilovers 10 points, V8 10 points, super charger 15 points total - 50 points. Over 10 stages that is 5 points a stage, come on really, is that a handicap!!
Also on you points system I could have a:
Winch 15, Coilovers 10, V8 10 - 35 points
Turboed TB42 been around for years - 30 points in 2013
How fair is that, not very.
You are correct that a 10 second handicap could be 10 places but on the other hand a 30 second or minute handicap could be no change in place. What the time handicap does though is allow people to know how much they need to push to beat someone. If you have a time handicap you still know what you are starting with. you are starting with a time penalty of 45 seconds.
To make it work grade your stages as winch, speed or both.
You could place there handicap on their winscreen using stickers for example:
S - 25 means - Speed stage 25 seconds
W- 35 means - Winch stage 35 seconds
if it was a speed and winch stage you would add them together.
To inforce the handicap you could either hold them at the start with the clock running for their handicap time or just add it to their final time, I don't see a great difficulty in that.
I do beleive though that the hardest part would be determining how much time is fair to all competitors.
_______________________________________
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Ouch! I don't think I could run in one of your comps Unlimited!unlimited 1 wrote:
I also beleive that if you where to run with the penalties you have decided on they are not severe enough.
For example winch 15 points, coilovers 10 points, V8 10 points, super charger 15 points total - 50 points. Over 10 stages that is 5 points a stage, come on really, is that a handicap!!
Also on you points system I could have a:
Winch 15, Coilovers 10, V8 10 - 35 points
Turboed TB42 been around for years - 30 points in 2013
How fair is that, not very.
If you look at alot of Daves comps I think that if you came in first a year ago in a supercharged gen patrol, winch mod and coilovers - you'd now be in the hunt for 10th........ that's pretty harsh in my opinion!
And I agree with it not being fair........ any of the penalties...
Let the boys play!!! that's what we're there to watch...
MMM you say your the first to bring things in all the time like cages, harnesses...... I agree with you... they are major safety concerns that HAD TO HAPPEN... but for a growing sport this is a sad day I think...
I will not be excited in 2015 to head to my favourite XWC event and watch the same old same old GQ/GU patrol that every man and his dog has driving round on the street...
Sure it's legal and sure it's safer but it's plain boring..............
the reason people get excited to go to your event is to watch the super bling trucks get thrashed!!!!
did you notice that MADICA's car had a good following at XWC rocky?
notice that no one hung around on saturday to watch the standard trucks.....................................................................
I'm seriously concerned..................
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I still don't understand why people have got this thing in their head that it is a bad things to have a handicap. It is not stopping anybody from doing modifications it is just saying that if you do then it will be handicaped to allow a level playing field. If any thing it is going to help the sport last the distance. How good would it be for people to enter a competition with their twin turboed/supercharged 7.2 lt V8, coilovered, four motored 100% reduction geared winch, Patrol and the person that enters with a Naturally aspirated diesel, single motor winch, 2inch suspension, still has a chance at winning a stage. Maybe not the most exciting maybe it is. I just think it make for a better competition and more level playing field.digsy wrote:Ouch! I don't think I could run in one of your comps Unlimited!unlimited 1 wrote:
I also beleive that if you where to run with the penalties you have decided on they are not severe enough.
For example winch 15 points, coilovers 10 points, V8 10 points, super charger 15 points total - 50 points. Over 10 stages that is 5 points a stage, come on really, is that a handicap!!
Also on you points system I could have a:
Winch 15, Coilovers 10, V8 10 - 35 points
Turboed TB42 been around for years - 30 points in 2013
How fair is that, not very.
If you look at alot of Daves comps I think that if you came in first a year ago in a supercharged gen patrol, winch mod and coilovers - you'd now be in the hunt for 10th........ that's pretty harsh in my opinion!
And I agree with it not being fair........ any of the penalties...
Let the boys play!!! that's what we're there to watch...
MMM you say your the first to bring things in all the time like cages, harnesses...... I agree with you... they are major safety concerns that HAD TO HAPPEN... but for a growing sport this is a sad day I think...
I will not be excited in 2015 to head to my favourite XWC event and watch the same old same old GQ/GU patrol that every man and his dog has driving round on the street...
Sure it's legal and sure it's safer but it's plain boring..............
the reason people get excited to go to your event is to watch the super bling trucks get thrashed!!!!
did you notice that MADICA's car had a good following at XWC rocky?
notice that no one hung around on saturday to watch the standard trucks.....................................................................
I'm seriously concerned..................
_______________________________________
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
because if you can win a stage in a stocko why would someone build a $100,000 race car to come second............
It's racing..... money will always play a big role...
there's no one is V8 supercars that just bought their stocko out for a race.....
I think a handicap is bull crap... either let it run or cut it all together...
if MMM was serious about his thoughts on making it safer this is what he'd do.... but he know's that people are going to drop a mint on something within his guidelines soon... this silly handicap just takes some of the current top teams out of the their domant position... and that's a shame...
Madica has supported alot of dave's events over the years and now their going to be most penalized...
anyway I know everything has to change but it's sad to think the cars that I go to see as a spectator (come on that's what we all go to watch) are going to be hurt by this rule and not built to this standard for this comp any more...
Again maybe it's a good thing for some competitors but I think for most spectators it's a step back..... less spectators, less dollars, less sponsership, less business promotion...... I've preached this crap before so I know no one cares.... it's just my opinion...
It's racing..... money will always play a big role...
there's no one is V8 supercars that just bought their stocko out for a race.....
I think a handicap is bull crap... either let it run or cut it all together...
if MMM was serious about his thoughts on making it safer this is what he'd do.... but he know's that people are going to drop a mint on something within his guidelines soon... this silly handicap just takes some of the current top teams out of the their domant position... and that's a shame...
Madica has supported alot of dave's events over the years and now their going to be most penalized...
anyway I know everything has to change but it's sad to think the cars that I go to see as a spectator (come on that's what we all go to watch) are going to be hurt by this rule and not built to this standard for this comp any more...
Again maybe it's a good thing for some competitors but I think for most spectators it's a step back..... less spectators, less dollars, less sponsership, less business promotion...... I've preached this crap before so I know no one cares.... it's just my opinion...
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and just so we're clear... the bloke in the NA deisel is NEVER going to WIN a stage.... at the end of the day he might win the event because he had the least points taken off his final score
But he by NO MEANS won any stages that he didn't win before this silly rule.
But he by NO MEANS won any stages that he didn't win before this silly rule.
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Have you ever asked someone why they built their $100 000 truck? it is not always about winning for them alot of the time they do it because they can or they want a more capable truck or just for something different.digsy wrote:because if you can win a stage in a stocko why would someone build a $100,000 race car to come second............
It's racing..... money will always play a big role...
there's no one is V8 supercars that just bought their stocko out for a race.....
I think a handicap is bull crap... either let it run or cut it all together...
if MMM was serious about his thoughts on making it safer this is what he'd do.... but he know's that people are going to drop a mint on something within his guidelines soon... this silly handicap just takes some of the current top teams out of the their domant position... and that's a shame...
Madica has supported alot of dave's events over the years and now their going to be most penalized...
anyway I know everything has to change but it's sad to think the cars that I go to see as a spectator (come on that's what we all go to watch) are going to be hurt by this rule and not built to this standard for this comp any more...
Again maybe it's a good thing for some competitors but I think for most spectators it's a step back..... less spectators, less dollars, less sponsership, less business promotion...... I've preached this crap before so I know no one cares.... it's just my opinion...
Most motorsports have restrictions and rules including V8's to combat exaclty the reason you said (money playing a big part)and to create a level playing field.
I know racing needs developments but come on. Every year there is a new development, faster more powerfull cars, faster more efficient winches. It needs some kind of governing. Look at offroad racing, they have rules and limitations but people still race. The best thing about their rules are they are the same for every race in every state and territory, which is another topic all on its own.
For one minute lets forget about the spectators you are talking about and the organisors, what is in the best interest of all competitors. To be honest, no spectators still competition, no competitiors no competition. You make mention of Madica. I have raced with them and they have a very well prepared truck and operated quite professionally. You made the comment that they should be looked after for their support of different events. With a car like theirs why wouldn't you support the events as your chance of finishing at the top end and taking home the bacon is far greater than anybody else's. Not because they are more prepared than others or more professional but due to the factor that they could spend more money or have the expertise to build such a truck.
With a handicap system that is setup right brings racing back to what it should be. One driver and navigators ability against another's. Isn't this what we all want to know who is the best team.
_______________________________________
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Unlimited Industries RACING
www.unlimitedindustries.com.au
Everyone that has $100,000 truck is in it for the win bud...
Don't care who you think of they have a SERIOUS desire to WIN at that sort of dollars because you can have a hell cool patrol with some good bits that does all recreational 4bn but doesn't WIN winch challanges for a hell of a lot less than that! 3 motor low mounts that do 18km/h under full load are CRAP for rec winching.... it's purely come about from race development - and under these new rules never would've been created.
Anyone that says any different about not wanting to win, in it for the fun is talking from their arse...........
Oh I just wanted triple bypass, 600HP 6L, lamaneted diffs and full race interior just to have a little fun on the weekend...... bull crap!
They're in for the win!
In the offroad racing codes that you are quoting you are either allowed to run it or your not! CAMS says NO forced over 3.5 and only 6L.... that's fine but it's not cheap! because blokes like Gallard still get 800HP out of their 6L!
That's the rules... you don't get 50 seconds because Gallard has more money to spend than the next bloke! And he's winning........ but he has the truck everyone wants and now aspires to build! And it's the truck that everyone goes to see.......
I agree it's about the competitors but that is the crap that has made winch challange stuff so absolutely unsellable in the last 10yrs.
When are people going to start changing their mentality and work out that for the sport to REALLY grow it's about the spectators.... otherwise it's always going to be a small event with the same 30 trucks doing it until they can't justify spending all their hard earned on racing next week... no doubt therely be a new kid on the block that will fill his shoes but he'll only do it for a few years until it breaks him! You say forget about the spectators think about the competitors.... that is the ONLY thing I am doing! You make this thing spectator friendly and marketable and you will have competitors that can stay in the sport...
RED BULL said to Crimmo that the sport is unmarketable??????????
WHY?????????
is it because of this backward mentality!!!
No one ever stopped Mountain Bike manufactures from developing their gear..... they sure as hell didn't hinder them with penalties....
Motocross is the same.... you can run a 450........ do whatever you like to it.... oh no chad reed's got a bigger budget than me.... better slow him down with some penalties so someone else can win....
And to answer your question. No I don't want to see the best TEAM win... again that is simply boring. What you are suggesting about a perfectly set up handicap system is HONESTLY like giving everyone a GU patrol deisel ute.... NO MODS and a Magnum winch out of the box and saying... ok now where going to find the best TEAM........ it's BORING and it's never going to take off... it's never been about the best team members per-say... it's about the best team including vehicle built within a set of guidelines.
MMM did have guidelines already in place that everyone has built their cars too.... it's not like it's been a free for all with race buggys... he stopped Rob Marshall racing when his car was outside the guidelines...
Moreso how are you going to justify to the top runners in 2013 that they just won 3 stages overall, where blisteringly quick on most other stages but they just came 5th....... sorry the guy with the GU got consistant mid fields but he has less mods so their the better team......... What?
Anyway... you guys are happy to have a little comp with 100 spectators and no money from any of these big companys so that at some point you'll have to give up what you love doing when you can't justify the expense any more..........
Sad really
Don't care who you think of they have a SERIOUS desire to WIN at that sort of dollars because you can have a hell cool patrol with some good bits that does all recreational 4bn but doesn't WIN winch challanges for a hell of a lot less than that! 3 motor low mounts that do 18km/h under full load are CRAP for rec winching.... it's purely come about from race development - and under these new rules never would've been created.
Anyone that says any different about not wanting to win, in it for the fun is talking from their arse...........
Oh I just wanted triple bypass, 600HP 6L, lamaneted diffs and full race interior just to have a little fun on the weekend...... bull crap!
They're in for the win!
In the offroad racing codes that you are quoting you are either allowed to run it or your not! CAMS says NO forced over 3.5 and only 6L.... that's fine but it's not cheap! because blokes like Gallard still get 800HP out of their 6L!
That's the rules... you don't get 50 seconds because Gallard has more money to spend than the next bloke! And he's winning........ but he has the truck everyone wants and now aspires to build! And it's the truck that everyone goes to see.......
I agree it's about the competitors but that is the crap that has made winch challange stuff so absolutely unsellable in the last 10yrs.
When are people going to start changing their mentality and work out that for the sport to REALLY grow it's about the spectators.... otherwise it's always going to be a small event with the same 30 trucks doing it until they can't justify spending all their hard earned on racing next week... no doubt therely be a new kid on the block that will fill his shoes but he'll only do it for a few years until it breaks him! You say forget about the spectators think about the competitors.... that is the ONLY thing I am doing! You make this thing spectator friendly and marketable and you will have competitors that can stay in the sport...
RED BULL said to Crimmo that the sport is unmarketable??????????
WHY?????????
is it because of this backward mentality!!!
No one ever stopped Mountain Bike manufactures from developing their gear..... they sure as hell didn't hinder them with penalties....
Motocross is the same.... you can run a 450........ do whatever you like to it.... oh no chad reed's got a bigger budget than me.... better slow him down with some penalties so someone else can win....
And to answer your question. No I don't want to see the best TEAM win... again that is simply boring. What you are suggesting about a perfectly set up handicap system is HONESTLY like giving everyone a GU patrol deisel ute.... NO MODS and a Magnum winch out of the box and saying... ok now where going to find the best TEAM........ it's BORING and it's never going to take off... it's never been about the best team members per-say... it's about the best team including vehicle built within a set of guidelines.
MMM did have guidelines already in place that everyone has built their cars too.... it's not like it's been a free for all with race buggys... he stopped Rob Marshall racing when his car was outside the guidelines...
Moreso how are you going to justify to the top runners in 2013 that they just won 3 stages overall, where blisteringly quick on most other stages but they just came 5th....... sorry the guy with the GU got consistant mid fields but he has less mods so their the better team......... What?
Anyway... you guys are happy to have a little comp with 100 spectators and no money from any of these big companys so that at some point you'll have to give up what you love doing when you can't justify the expense any more..........
Sad really
Last edited by digsy on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Actually now I just read a bit more..... XI no penalties.........
Nothing makes sense....
I'm with tufenuf (NEVER thought I'd say that) see you in Offroad Racing where the rules are the same for everyone... and dollars will beat me but that's ok because it's something to espire to!
Nothing makes sense....
I'm with tufenuf (NEVER thought I'd say that) see you in Offroad Racing where the rules are the same for everyone... and dollars will beat me but that's ok because it's something to espire to!
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I'm with tufenuf (NEVER thought I'd say that) see you in Offroad Racing where the rules are the same for everyone... and dollars will beat me but that's ok because it's something to espire to!
maybe i suck at explaining my self cause what you have wrote is what i been trying to say the whole time, although i dont think class 8 racing is as nearly money orientated as everybody thinks
OK, heres some food for thought. What would you guys, as fellow competitors, think if someone turned up to the next winch challenge with a DAKAR type Off road 4x4 machine, weighing only 1850kg's, IFS all round, 600HP and one of Russells 3 motor winches (costing around $200,000+ by the way)?
Sure, the spectators might be impressed watching it the first couple of events, but if it continued to win time and time again, how boring do you think it would get then. Not to mention the number of competitors that would simply walk away from the sport because they could never hope to compete with something like that. And don't kid yourself, Winch challenge events will never end up with a dozen or so of such vehicles to increase competition, Off Road Racing class 7 and 8 struggles to on a regular basis now. Winch challenges evolved to allow the 4wd club competitior to step up a level, never intending to create an event that someone like Redbull would be even the slightest interested in.
While I understand everones point of view from a spectators point of view, these events are not spectator friendly. Look at the issues raised by Steve Hobbs trying to cater for spectators at Cliffhanger and problems at the OBC over the years. Steve's issue is he is spending more time and effort on spectators than competitors and stages.
Every form of successful motorsport has strict guidelines. Yes I can build a high powered 6 litre with unlimited dollars. But I can build an even more expensive more powerful motor if I am then allowed to put a blower or supercharger on. CAMS just drew a line in the sand somewhere and 6litres was it.
And guys if you choose to go Class 7 or 8 racing, and I would encourage you to try it once in your lifetime as it is heaps of fun, don't be fooled, it WILL cost you a lot more than winch Challenges. Just go and check on the cost of your CAMS license for a start.
Don't think $200,000+ is unrealistic. Bruce Chapman has spent almost $250,000 on a buggy, no winch and not even 4WD.
Phil
Sure, the spectators might be impressed watching it the first couple of events, but if it continued to win time and time again, how boring do you think it would get then. Not to mention the number of competitors that would simply walk away from the sport because they could never hope to compete with something like that. And don't kid yourself, Winch challenge events will never end up with a dozen or so of such vehicles to increase competition, Off Road Racing class 7 and 8 struggles to on a regular basis now. Winch challenges evolved to allow the 4wd club competitior to step up a level, never intending to create an event that someone like Redbull would be even the slightest interested in.
While I understand everones point of view from a spectators point of view, these events are not spectator friendly. Look at the issues raised by Steve Hobbs trying to cater for spectators at Cliffhanger and problems at the OBC over the years. Steve's issue is he is spending more time and effort on spectators than competitors and stages.
Every form of successful motorsport has strict guidelines. Yes I can build a high powered 6 litre with unlimited dollars. But I can build an even more expensive more powerful motor if I am then allowed to put a blower or supercharger on. CAMS just drew a line in the sand somewhere and 6litres was it.
And guys if you choose to go Class 7 or 8 racing, and I would encourage you to try it once in your lifetime as it is heaps of fun, don't be fooled, it WILL cost you a lot more than winch Challenges. Just go and check on the cost of your CAMS license for a start.
Don't think $200,000+ is unrealistic. Bruce Chapman has spent almost $250,000 on a buggy, no winch and not even 4WD.
Phil
Just Get Out and Do it!
Ok Phil here's where what your saying doesn't line up... that can't happen... MMM has current guidelines that all the trucks are built to. They are simple enough and keep everyone in the game... Rob Marshall was booted when he stepped outside... There are NO tube frame race Dakar cars now so let's not get off topic
What I don't agree with is a penalty system... sure draw a line in the sand if it's a serious safety issue... but sure as hell don't tell someone they can run their supercharged gen but at reduced points....
In my opinion it's run it or don't... just like CAMS.
If dave is letting the supercharged gen, coilovered winch truck run then don't call it a stupid safety issue because it's not! It's a slow the current creme of the crop down issue...
And once again it doesn't matter how it was intended in the early days of winch challenges Phil... times are a changing and if it was marketed right it would have people interested... Look how much of a following on this site Cliffhanger has.... something like a million views???? wouldn't red bull be interested in selling to them... or better yet monster energy like to take those sales off of red bull?
Again maybe it's the pure tenacity that you guys resist evolution that hurts your chances of getting these companies...... like it or not Offroad Racing is getting those sponsers now and that is because it is becoming more marketable and people are working together to get this on TV and mainstream media...
It's only a matter of time until you see a big sponsered car from a non 4B brand in Cliffhanger - Ateco - Ect... wiether that be Wicked Quick, Etc but poor old QLD competitors of XWC will seriously struggle to make their 3 inch lifted GQ on off the shelf suspension make the inside cover ad for MONSTER ENERGY in DirtComp..............
Surely you can see that... they are NOT going to be across the board changes because the boys from ATECO, Vic Winch, OBC, Cliffhanger aren't going to kill the cars that are currently their biggest market...
Anyway...
What I don't agree with is a penalty system... sure draw a line in the sand if it's a serious safety issue... but sure as hell don't tell someone they can run their supercharged gen but at reduced points....
In my opinion it's run it or don't... just like CAMS.
If dave is letting the supercharged gen, coilovered winch truck run then don't call it a stupid safety issue because it's not! It's a slow the current creme of the crop down issue...
And once again it doesn't matter how it was intended in the early days of winch challenges Phil... times are a changing and if it was marketed right it would have people interested... Look how much of a following on this site Cliffhanger has.... something like a million views???? wouldn't red bull be interested in selling to them... or better yet monster energy like to take those sales off of red bull?
Again maybe it's the pure tenacity that you guys resist evolution that hurts your chances of getting these companies...... like it or not Offroad Racing is getting those sponsers now and that is because it is becoming more marketable and people are working together to get this on TV and mainstream media...
It's only a matter of time until you see a big sponsered car from a non 4B brand in Cliffhanger - Ateco - Ect... wiether that be Wicked Quick, Etc but poor old QLD competitors of XWC will seriously struggle to make their 3 inch lifted GQ on off the shelf suspension make the inside cover ad for MONSTER ENERGY in DirtComp..............
Surely you can see that... they are NOT going to be across the board changes because the boys from ATECO, Vic Winch, OBC, Cliffhanger aren't going to kill the cars that are currently their biggest market...
Anyway...
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not only would i love to race that car, i think i could beat it on some stages, cause luck does come into it, i wanna race the best of the best, as i have said before, i would race the tuff truck winning buggy with a winch on it if he wanted, cause if they pick a wrong line or something goes wrong(which it can quite easily) they will get beaten.OK, heres some food for thought. What would you guys, as fellow competitors, think if someone turned up to the next winch challenge with a DAKAR type Off road 4x4 machine, weighing only 1850kg's, IFS all round, 600HP and one of Russells 3 motor winches (costing around $200,000+ by the way
Sorry tufenuf... no disrespect meant
Only thing is I think I want to come and do whatever job your doing because what you think is average dollars is off tap for the every man.
My house is small but it's still my house and not my car!!! he he
Only thing is I think I want to come and do whatever job your doing because what you think is average dollars is off tap for the every man.
My house is small but it's still my house and not my car!!! he he
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Sorry Digsy but that sort of car could actually be built under Challenge Class CCDA rules. Under MMM's rules, yes it would be handicapped, but it would be seriously competitive none the less. (Even without a blower or charger, its all about power:weight)
I think you may have missed the point perhaps with Cliffhanger. If Steve had his way, I think he would gladly do away with spectators, they are just a logistical nightmare in trying to run the event. (Read his forum comments about next years event). I know our guys here don't choose an event based on how many spectators cheer them on, but how good the stages are to do and how the event is run.
Maybe the popularity of the forum following of Cliffhanger is more by those that one day would like to actually compete, not by those wanting to spectate. Its still a competitors budget sport and I think thats where its strengths lay.
Let Redbull and those chase the guys in Off Road Racing and stadium racing who are prepared to spend $200+. I mean seriously, building a high powered 600HP truck is far more relevant to Off Road and staduim Racing than Winch Challenges anyway.
Afterall, isn't this forum discussion all about trying to keep the battlers competing and not standing on the sidelines.
Phil
I think you may have missed the point perhaps with Cliffhanger. If Steve had his way, I think he would gladly do away with spectators, they are just a logistical nightmare in trying to run the event. (Read his forum comments about next years event). I know our guys here don't choose an event based on how many spectators cheer them on, but how good the stages are to do and how the event is run.
Maybe the popularity of the forum following of Cliffhanger is more by those that one day would like to actually compete, not by those wanting to spectate. Its still a competitors budget sport and I think thats where its strengths lay.
Let Redbull and those chase the guys in Off Road Racing and stadium racing who are prepared to spend $200+. I mean seriously, building a high powered 600HP truck is far more relevant to Off Road and staduim Racing than Winch Challenges anyway.
Afterall, isn't this forum discussion all about trying to keep the battlers competing and not standing on the sidelines.
Phil
Just Get Out and Do it!
Can metcalf clear this up for us?
If I turn up in a Dakar race truck with space frame and fiberglass clip on panels from front to back, can I race? With the penalties?
Just I'm honestly not being a smart arse but I honestly thought under the current rules that this was way out of the question. As mention before Rob Marshall got the boot from XWC for cutting a fair bit off his front mudguards, still had standard patrol chassis (as standard as the rest anyway)... so assumably something with full clip on panels and spaceframe would be outside current guidelines for both XWC and Cliffhanger? I'm really not sure. If not... why isn't someone doing this?
Particularly on something like the OBC where 3 hour GPS stages out in the paddocks would be the realm of a vehicle like this...
One thing I really hope MMM is that you don't think that I'm whining just for the sake of whining...(I know I'm whining)
I love XWC and half of rocky turns out to watch it when it comes to town...
It's just my honest opinion is now that you have to make the decision now and either call off the progression in the name of safety and lock the rules in as of a set date, if that's CAMS style or whatever, so be it...
But penalties are murder to your fans...
Watching a event and seeing the best, fastest, craziest teams battle it out with fastest times and daring driving and then handing the overall win to 8th place because they had no mod penalties is not spectator or sponsor pleasing... surely you can see that...
If I turn up in a Dakar race truck with space frame and fiberglass clip on panels from front to back, can I race? With the penalties?
Just I'm honestly not being a smart arse but I honestly thought under the current rules that this was way out of the question. As mention before Rob Marshall got the boot from XWC for cutting a fair bit off his front mudguards, still had standard patrol chassis (as standard as the rest anyway)... so assumably something with full clip on panels and spaceframe would be outside current guidelines for both XWC and Cliffhanger? I'm really not sure. If not... why isn't someone doing this?
Particularly on something like the OBC where 3 hour GPS stages out in the paddocks would be the realm of a vehicle like this...
One thing I really hope MMM is that you don't think that I'm whining just for the sake of whining...(I know I'm whining)
I love XWC and half of rocky turns out to watch it when it comes to town...
It's just my honest opinion is now that you have to make the decision now and either call off the progression in the name of safety and lock the rules in as of a set date, if that's CAMS style or whatever, so be it...
But penalties are murder to your fans...
Watching a event and seeing the best, fastest, craziest teams battle it out with fastest times and daring driving and then handing the overall win to 8th place because they had no mod penalties is not spectator or sponsor pleasing... surely you can see that...
Last edited by digsy on Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hey tufenuf you should post some pics of your new rig... I'd love to check it out... probably not here but somewhere...
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Digsy wrote these comments/questions, and as it is an open forum and these were some great comments. I would like to answer them, in very short form.
Q1:- Can metcalfe (I have got a first name) clear this up for us?
A:- Yes. And by the way my first name is David or if you like MMM.
Q2:- If I turn up in a Dakar race truck with space frame and fiberglass clip on panels from front to back, can I race? With the penalties?
A:- NO. But under Xtreme 4x4 Sport rules & guidelines for XWC & XI, you would have to apply for exemption under Rule 6B in the Rules & Guidelines.
Q3:- Just I'm honestly not being a smart arse but I honestly thought under the current rules that this was way out of the question.
A:- And no you are not being a smart arse, because if you were I would not have taken the time to make these comments. It also appears that you have not read the rules regards this mater as answered in Q2.
Q4:- As mention before Rob Marshall got the boot from XWC for cutting a fair bit off his front mudguards, still had standard patrol chassis (as standard as the rest anyway)...
A:- Rob Marshall has never been refused entry into an XWC event. He was advised at the May Expo he would have to fit full guards & bonnet before his vehicle would be accepted at the next XWC event which was Round 2 at Rocky. He never sent in an entry, so that means he has not been refused a start.
Q5:- One thing I really hope MMM is that you don't think that I'm whining just for the sake of whining...(I know I'm whining)
A:- That was answered in 3
Q6:- I love XWC and half of rocky turns out to watch it when it comes to town.
A:- Round 2 in Rocky is the second biggest 4wd (non CAMS) event in Australia. Number 1 is Tuff Truck and I think XWC would share number 2 with the CQ Challenge also based at Seeonee Park.
Q7:- It's just my honest opinion is now that you have to make the decision now and either call off the progression in the name of safety and lock the rules in as of a set date.
A:- Safety has always been my main concern, I can easily slow down vehicles by SS design. These handicaps have been put in place with ample warning to create a level playing field. The rules have been locked in with plenty of time to build to those rules. Keep in mind some of the people will not be competing when these are fully in force. This is not due to the rules, but to peoples change of life & commitments as years go on.
Q8:- But penalties are murder to your fans.
A:- You are completely wrong. They will still come and see the vehicle they would love to drive, but possibly never will be able to afford it. $15 is a lot cheaper then unknown dollars of what some have paid to build their comp truck.
Q9:- Watching a event and seeing the best, fastest, craziest teams battle it out with fastest times and daring driving and then handing the overall win to 8th place because they had no mod penalties.
A:- It appears that you have not had a look at the top 10 drivers or for that fact how close the top 3 are to each other. I very much doubt that 8th place is going to come first, but if there is only 25 points between 1st & 8th Place, he would have deserved it running a vehicle with no mods. Just imagine how good he would go in a vehicle with all the mods.
Q10a:- is not spectator or Q10b:- sponsor pleasing.
A10a:- Has been answered in item 8.
A10b:- I would imagine my main sponsors can relate to very little on some of the lead comp trucks, so why should they sponsor something where their product is not being used. It would be better value for money to promote something where people can see their product being used. Etc. WARN do not make twin/triple motored and air free spooled winches, ARB/EFS do not sell coil overs, Nissan or Toyota do not bring out 6lt vehicles with turbo's & Super chargers fitted, 4wd do not run around on 37" or more tyres. So do you think that this could be a reason for these people not wanting to get more involved. There are a lot of business's out there that will sell you gear but do not support in any way. They at least could pay a competitors entry fee.
It appears that we are talking alot about the $100k trucks, that is what a big majority are by the time you take labour, parts, R&D and the list goes on. Just go and ask someone to build a truck from scratch and it gets very scary when you start to add up everything.
Also there have been comments made about people that have got trucks like this and it has been said it is to win, I would like to disagree on that. I think that some could build that vehicle because they want to regardless of win or loose. I take great pride in seeing people copy what I have done and the few events that I have entered I have not had a hope in hell of being at the pointy end. I just wanted to compete and get a $5 trophy of which I have failed to get in Australia at the few events that I have competed in.
Cheers
David Metcalfe
Competition Manager
Xtreme 4x4 Sport Events
Q1:- Can metcalfe (I have got a first name) clear this up for us?
A:- Yes. And by the way my first name is David or if you like MMM.
Q2:- If I turn up in a Dakar race truck with space frame and fiberglass clip on panels from front to back, can I race? With the penalties?
A:- NO. But under Xtreme 4x4 Sport rules & guidelines for XWC & XI, you would have to apply for exemption under Rule 6B in the Rules & Guidelines.
Q3:- Just I'm honestly not being a smart arse but I honestly thought under the current rules that this was way out of the question.
A:- And no you are not being a smart arse, because if you were I would not have taken the time to make these comments. It also appears that you have not read the rules regards this mater as answered in Q2.
Q4:- As mention before Rob Marshall got the boot from XWC for cutting a fair bit off his front mudguards, still had standard patrol chassis (as standard as the rest anyway)...
A:- Rob Marshall has never been refused entry into an XWC event. He was advised at the May Expo he would have to fit full guards & bonnet before his vehicle would be accepted at the next XWC event which was Round 2 at Rocky. He never sent in an entry, so that means he has not been refused a start.
Q5:- One thing I really hope MMM is that you don't think that I'm whining just for the sake of whining...(I know I'm whining)
A:- That was answered in 3
Q6:- I love XWC and half of rocky turns out to watch it when it comes to town.
A:- Round 2 in Rocky is the second biggest 4wd (non CAMS) event in Australia. Number 1 is Tuff Truck and I think XWC would share number 2 with the CQ Challenge also based at Seeonee Park.
Q7:- It's just my honest opinion is now that you have to make the decision now and either call off the progression in the name of safety and lock the rules in as of a set date.
A:- Safety has always been my main concern, I can easily slow down vehicles by SS design. These handicaps have been put in place with ample warning to create a level playing field. The rules have been locked in with plenty of time to build to those rules. Keep in mind some of the people will not be competing when these are fully in force. This is not due to the rules, but to peoples change of life & commitments as years go on.
Q8:- But penalties are murder to your fans.
A:- You are completely wrong. They will still come and see the vehicle they would love to drive, but possibly never will be able to afford it. $15 is a lot cheaper then unknown dollars of what some have paid to build their comp truck.
Q9:- Watching a event and seeing the best, fastest, craziest teams battle it out with fastest times and daring driving and then handing the overall win to 8th place because they had no mod penalties.
A:- It appears that you have not had a look at the top 10 drivers or for that fact how close the top 3 are to each other. I very much doubt that 8th place is going to come first, but if there is only 25 points between 1st & 8th Place, he would have deserved it running a vehicle with no mods. Just imagine how good he would go in a vehicle with all the mods.
Q10a:- is not spectator or Q10b:- sponsor pleasing.
A10a:- Has been answered in item 8.
A10b:- I would imagine my main sponsors can relate to very little on some of the lead comp trucks, so why should they sponsor something where their product is not being used. It would be better value for money to promote something where people can see their product being used. Etc. WARN do not make twin/triple motored and air free spooled winches, ARB/EFS do not sell coil overs, Nissan or Toyota do not bring out 6lt vehicles with turbo's & Super chargers fitted, 4wd do not run around on 37" or more tyres. So do you think that this could be a reason for these people not wanting to get more involved. There are a lot of business's out there that will sell you gear but do not support in any way. They at least could pay a competitors entry fee.
It appears that we are talking alot about the $100k trucks, that is what a big majority are by the time you take labour, parts, R&D and the list goes on. Just go and ask someone to build a truck from scratch and it gets very scary when you start to add up everything.
Also there have been comments made about people that have got trucks like this and it has been said it is to win, I would like to disagree on that. I think that some could build that vehicle because they want to regardless of win or loose. I take great pride in seeing people copy what I have done and the few events that I have entered I have not had a hope in hell of being at the pointy end. I just wanted to compete and get a $5 trophy of which I have failed to get in Australia at the few events that I have competed in.
Cheers
David Metcalfe
Competition Manager
Xtreme 4x4 Sport Events
Last edited by XTREME MMM on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Metcalfe, runs Xtreme 4X4 Sport which is the home of ARB Xtreme Winch Challenge Series, Xtreme International & 4WD Angel Adventure supporting Angel Flight Australia
You know that all of this problem would go away if there were another class!!! Myself I truly belive that any one beaten in a race where he or she was beaten by a slower time will want proof why.I think Dave will spend most of his time explaning this point to unsatisfied people.Lets all face it shouldn`t matter what your budget is it`s the pride in getting the fastest time that appeals to us it`s like taking a lolly off a kid!By the way the three motor winch would not of come about if the proposed rules were in at 07-08.Some people bagged Scoot and myself for turning up with a geard up low mount and We were told over the mike to go and buy a high mount.The reason we ran it was it was on the car when I bought it.But I say again it`s your comp Dave but just be carful or new Ideas will pop up at other events.Billy
Inya Racing..
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