roll cage on the street

Post by **BigRedJeep** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:26 pm

Howdy,

Just wondering for those of you out there with a full cage inside your rigs and drive them on the street.

Do you get much grief from the boys in blue? Pink slips etc? Apparently only half cage's are "engineerable" and road worthy but i'm hoping it could just go unnoticed?

What do you reckon?

AJ

Post by **1TUFFGQ** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:55 pm

This is what it says about them in Victoria. You can have them but there are some requirements. What people fail to remember is that to fit a roll bar or cage, it requires drilling and sometimes cutting of the body. This automatically requires an engineering certificate. That wouldn't cost a lot because there is not a lot involved. Just in case you wanted to be 100% legal.
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonl ... /VSI28.pdf

Post by **CWBYUP** » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:20 pm

Why not just do it properly and get it engineered ?

Post by **Mousie** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:58 am

i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...

Post by **Drift Technician** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:07 am

Mousie wrote:i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...

Convert to single cab

Post by **hammey** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:01 am

Mousie wrote:i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...

Interesting, I spoke to athol up here in Newy a couple of weeks ago regarding an A frame and a 6l going into the new car and he didnt mention anything about the new laws regarding A pillars on roll cages.

was this just a proposal/ fact or was he just scared.

cheers smitty

Post by **nastytroll** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:34 am

in qld current regs state that there shall be a certain distance for head clearence to the bars, certain foot construction and clearence to passengers. Access cannot be altered to the vehicle from the cage, this will limit side intrusion for most cases.

Full details are on the infrustructure web site. Consult an engineer about it, most transport personel are not that helpful with modifications because there is so much information and they only read part of it.

Post by **Mousie** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:53 am

Major Body Modifications to Light Vehicles page 52/90
Code of Practice CP – 105B Section 4
SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS
ROLL BAR AND ROLL CAGE INSTALLATION - Code LH8
The following are specific requirements for Roll Bar and Roll Cage Installations to be approved
under Code LH8.
The installations must also comply with the general guidelines contained in Section 2 - “General
Requirements”.
1 SAFETY
1.1 The majority of internal “roll-bars” or “roll-cages” were originally designed for use in
racing cars where the occupant’s heads are protected by helmets. In normal road use,
the occupant’s heads are not protected by helmets so any modifications to the inside of
the cabin must be carefully designed to reduce the risk of injuries to occupants in the
event of a crash.
1.2 “Six-point” roll-cages which have supports running down the “A” pillars and “B” pillars,
and braces running to the rear are not acceptable for normal road use as the
additional forward supports are likely to constitute an increased injury risk to front seat
occupants in a crash. They can also decrease visibility for the driver and usually
prevent the correct positioning of sunvisors.
1.3 If a “six-point” roll-cage is required for “off-road” racing events the roll-cage must be
installed as a “four-point” roll-cage for normal road use and be converted to a “sixpoint”
roll-cage for “off-road” use by bolting in the additional front section of the “sixpoint”
roll-cage when required. This arrangement is to be used strictly for “offroad”
use only.

Post by **Mousie** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:55 am

Drift Technician wrote:
Mousie wrote:i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...
Convert to single cab

to comply to cams it must be a 6pt...
but it all depends on what u want to do
i want my car to comply to CAMS so i can enter all the racing events and not be restricted to only CCDA events...

Post by **VooDoo** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:02 am

Legal in QLD

I know quite a few cars with full cages inc 6 point/front legs with engineers certs and no probs rom the coppers. Most are cars but if they can do it then shouldnt be an issue with a BBBB

Post by **TYLER** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:36 am

so its legal to ha a brace inbetween the front and back seats of a car aslong as it is far enough away from the passanger so to not cause injury, and dose not alter the access to the vehical from the rear passanger doors?????

Post by **nastytroll** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:55 am

TYLER wrote:so its legal to ha a brace inbetween the front and back seats of a car aslong as it is far enough away from the passanger so to not cause injury, and dose not alter the access to the vehical from the rear passanger doors?????

Good luck finding enough room to fit the brace with out encroaching on passenger space. Most will get a seat cap change because of restricted space. Technically its doable but I doubt anyone will sign it off.

Post by **MightyMouse** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:22 pm

Judging by your avatar is this Q Jeep related ?

You've looked at a JK cage for inspiration ?

Post by **BigRedJeep** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:24 pm

Mousie wrote:i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...

That's what the engineer I used for the suspension told me. Although he did mention that a "removable" front section that would only be used "off road" would be okay.

Post by **BigRedJeep** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:29 pm

MightyMouse wrote:Judging by your avatar is this Q Jeep related ?

You've looked at a JK cage for inspiration ?

Yes and No, It is for a TJ but not sure why you mention the JK cage? Have a buddy who is getting rid of his CAMS spec 6 point cage from another TJ.
Should bolt right in, just don't want to have to be ripping it out the first time I get pulled over. It seems that 6 point and engineered don't go together in NSW

Post by **Mousie** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:46 pm

nope they dont.. i am having thease issues atm tryign to build i cams spec car and be road registerd

Post by **Breaker Brother** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:20 am

Mousie wrote:Major Body Modifications to Light Vehicles page 52/90
Code of Practice CP – 105B Section 4
SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS
ROLL BAR AND ROLL CAGE INSTALLATION - Code LH8
The following are specific requirements for Roll Bar and Roll Cage Installations to be approved
under Code LH8.
The installations must also comply with the general guidelines contained in Section 2 - “General
Requirements”.
1 SAFETY
1.1 The majority of internal “roll-bars” or “roll-cages” were originally designed for use in
racing cars where the occupant’s heads are protected by helmets. In normal road use,
the occupant’s heads are not protected by helmets so any modifications to the inside of
the cabin must be carefully designed to reduce the risk of injuries to occupants in the
event of a crash.
1.2 “Six-point” roll-cages which have supports running down the “A” pillars and “B” pillars,
and braces running to the rear are not acceptable for normal road use as the
additional forward supports are likely to constitute an increased injury risk to front seat
occupants in a crash. They can also decrease visibility for the driver and usually
prevent the correct positioning of sunvisors.
1.3 If a “six-point” roll-cage is required for “off-road” racing events the roll-cage must be
installed as a “four-point” roll-cage for normal road use and be converted to a “sixpoint”
roll-cage for “off-road” use by bolting in the additional front section of the “sixpoint”
roll-cage when required. This arrangement is to be used strictly for “offroad”
use only.

Edit, that pages looks to be from WA, Found it on http://www.dpi.wa.gov.au/
I've just searched the RTA website and found nothing apart what was mentioned in VSI 6
Bodywork and interior
There are general requirements concerning alterations to the bodywork:
􀂄 No alteration may cause a hazard to persons due to exposed sharp edges or projections; and
􀂄 No alteration may cause a reduction in the level of safety or overall strength of the vehicle.
There are guidlines for what headroom etc are required but they are ADR's not state laws

Post by **DIRTY ROCK STAR** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:19 am

for soft tops its not too bad or for exos.
the front hoop around the A pillar, is part of your roofrack/builders rack.
make sure its far away from head and doesnt obscure vision.
easy fixed.

so you end up with an engineered 4 point roll cage and an additional builders rack. because you have to carry "stuff".

Twon

Post by **zookimal** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:14 am

This was sold new and is registered in QLD but it's a factory cage instead of an addition. Vehicle is an 07 so is pretty current in regards regs/ADRs etc.

Post by **Athol** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:52 pm

Mousie wrote:i have spoen to an engineer and the RTA has apparently issued a statment that says no front legs are permited, so basically u cant get a 6pt cage engineerd ...

I have a copy of that letter somewhere around the office. It's a few years old and the woman who wrote it had just started as a manager in that department of the RTA. She was a school teacher who had just completed an MBA...

What the letter said was that they were going to clamp down on engineers who certified things that didn't meet the current rule book (NSW Light Vehicle Code of Practice), then cited the front of a cage as an example. Unfortunately for her, her letter outright contradicted what was in the rule book. I didn't get a chance to challenge her on it, as she didn't apparently last very long in that department.

For the record, there are 3 pages in the NSW Light Vehicle Code of Practice which prescribe the requirements in reasonable detail, including the headroom requirements, vision not to be impaired due to the front legs (ie align the legs with the A pillars relative to the driver's head, often making the left and right different shapes), sun visors to still be usable, interior mirror usable or left external to be fitted, etc.. After prescribing all of those things, it then recommends that the front half be bolted in, the inference being that it might be difficult to meet all of the criteria.

Where the RTA's former school teacher came unstuck is that she stated that the rule book specified that the front part of the cage was not permitted. That's obviously not what the book says at all. There are 2 statements that I can think of in that rule book that specify "not permitted":
* The use or fitment of nitrous oxide equipment is not permitted.
* The fitment of extended shackle plates is not permitted.

Unless the RTA issue a new policy document that over-rides the existing Code of Practice, that CoP remains in force. As long as a cage meets the CoP, it will pass.

Post by **dank** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:05 am

Thats a good interpretation of the rules. Can't get much more clear cut than that.

It seems that all the RTA are asking is that the cage is built so as to not hinder the vision or increase the likelihood of head trauma in an accident. I reckon that is a fair enough ask.

Its often said that if you have a cage, harnesses and helmets also come as part of the package...bit of a pain when you are driving through the maccas drive through and you can't reach the checkout chick for your change.

Post by **Mousie** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:15 am

ok look at this article this guy is a NSW engineer, i know him personally,
this is a articale out of a street comoo magazine

http://www.consulmotive.com.au/Website% ... 0Cages.pdf

and this one from fast 4s mag
http://www.consulmotive.com.au/Website% ... 0Fight.pdf

still says basically no 6pt cages

Post by **351ciofgrunt** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:30 am

I have 6 point roll cage in a GQ, and i got it mod plated no worries.

Post by **BigRedJeep** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:34 am

In the first article it does say 6 point cages are GENERALLY not accepted, but that doesn't mean there not allowed at all, Maybe there is some hope?

Post by **BigRedJeep** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:39 am

351ciofgrunt wrote:I have 6 point roll cage in a GQ, and i got it mod plated no worries.

Which state do you live in?

Post by **turps** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:25 am

Mousie wrote:ok look at this article this guy is a NSW engineer, i know him personally,
this is a articale out of a street comoo magazine

http://www.consulmotive.com.au/Website% ... 0Cages.pdf

and this one from fast 4s mag
http://www.consulmotive.com.au/Website% ... 0Fight.pdf

still says basically no 6pt cages

Cant see anything in that article that says cages forwards of a B pillar can be accepted. It says there's a good chance if it limits vision at all then it will get a no. Also if it doesn't meet the requirements for head clearance it will not pass.
Thats not to say it cant be done.
Also this is this blokes interpretation of the rules. Another engineer may see things slightly different. I know the guy i seen said 'I dont know why you are bothering adding all that crap'. But he also said if it meets the requirements theres no problems.

Post by **brooksy** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:11 am

I know of a 4wd that is currently getting engineered in QLD with a 6 pt cage. He has been held back due to A-pillar legs being classed as an interference to exiting the vehicle. He just needs to have the legs moved forward in the footwell & everything will be fine.

brooksy

Post by **Petes** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:38 am

VooDoo wrote:Legal in QLD

I know quite a few cars with full cages inc 6 point/front legs with engineers certs and no probs rom the coppers. Most are cars but if they can do it then shouldnt be an issue with a BBBB

Yep one good thing about QLD. I have a fully engineered Internal / External 6 point Cage on mine. Went straight through. never had an issue sice either.

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