Springier Steel Needed

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm tossing up some design ideas for sliders and want to make some mounts that can flex a little, and return. The idea is to have the mounts attached to the chassis, but under load have them come up and touch the body for support.

I don't want to go as far as spring steel, just something springier than mild steel. Flat bar - 8mm x 50mm would be ideal.

I could use car springs - the size is right - if I could get them unbent - but I'm not sure if I could weld them to the rest of the assembly successfully without weld problems.

On the other hand - they won't be flexing like a suspension spring - prob be forced to move 50 times or less in their life.

Thoughts?

Thanx
Paul

[luxoflex]

I don't think it will work as they are designed to stop the body work from being touched, I also don't think you can weld spring steel. My 2c.

[80's_delirious]

use heavier mild steel and use rubber, neoprene or polythylene chopping board blocks as little bump stops to the sill pinch welds??

Suitable spring steel could be hard to find, welding is likely to embrittle it too, might need to be rivetted

[bogged]

Rivets are the go

[Guy]

Have a look for a product called racetech 350 (I think) It is used to make roll cages etc, from memory it is quite springy.

[bru21]

original concept - but you could make them rigid and lighter with better design and protect your sills better. Ther is no place for 8mm on a car.

cheers bru

[RockyF75]

I just used steel RHS when I made my set, they still came up and flogged the body a tad, not enough to care, but enough to notice... All steel has a bit of give in it

I think your over-complicating something that's pretty simple.

[chimpboy]

I can kind of see the point of some springiness*, but I am not sure welding springy material in is the best way to get it. What about a little room for pivoting and some bump-stop rubber in between, or something like that?

Even if you made the whole thing rigid and quite close to the sills, and ran rubber between the slider and the sill, you would get that "springy support" thing happening in a simple way.


*I can kind of see the point, but I don't think it's worth it or would really be an improvement on the typical design, as rigid ones work well and properly designed they never damage the chassis.

[coxy321]

Rivets are the go

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm not happy with typical designs.

They are too heavy, often bend badly, have very long arms on the 105 series chassis, and have horrible load paths.
Mild steel bends up, and stays up. Been there, ARB genuine , unable to open the front doors.

There has to be a better way by utilising the sills. Either as the primary support, or as a secondary support. The sills on the 100 are pretty well built.

I need to be able to keep the body moving independently of the chassis.

The sills are plenty stong enough to take the weight when distributed. The issue is when it's a 140mm wide step, there is a large rotating moment. Managing the leverage of that moment is an issue. That's where the chasis may be able to help.

http://www.rock-itman.com/products/rockers.html are something I like.
Range rovers often run sliders on the sill only.

How to mount on the sill, and manage the rotation. or mount on the chassis with springy sections and have the sill still take the weight.

8mm was a number pulled out of my a**. Thinner is better. Alloy is better again. Rivets rock for distributing shear loads in thin materials. Not really this application - but maybe I can squeeze some in. I have an air riveter now, and just discovered Rivnuts (hint - rattle guns do more than simply compress 12mm rivnuts)

Paul

[bad_religion_au]

Mild steel bends up, and stays up. Been there, ARB genuine , unable to open the front doors.

theres your problem. i wouldn't exactly call ARB the pinnacle of robust sliders...

[bad_religion_au]

Ther is no place for 8mm on a car.

cheers bru

not even for shackles?

[stuee]

http://www.rock-itman.com/products/rockers.html are something I like.
Range rovers often run sliders on the sill only.

The sliders on my disco are mounted to the sill. Basically a U section around the sill with a side bar of about 50mm protruding out the side.

I can use a high-lift jack on them and have slammed them plenty of times. I can understand what your saying about the chassis mounted sliders and leverage though.

[ledgend80]

speaking to the boily here at work and he said for me to use blue band gal water pipe said it is high tensile and should give a little when hit

[Wambat]

arb ones arent sliders, they are brush gaurds/side steps. they only usualy attach at two points, near the front and rear tyre so they do bend in the conter, and arent reinforced the same way sliders are.



but as you have said for your application traditional sliders are to heavey, so i cant advise you any more than saying that the arb brsuh gaurds, would not hold the wight of your car. and to get something that locks the same but is strong enough you would be adding a fair bit of steel therefore weight

[revnkev]

I went from chassis mounted to sill mounted rockslides on my Pajero and am happy with them so far,
they are made from 65 x 35 x 3mm gal and have copped some good hits and no damage to the sills.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~revnkev/mypic26.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~revnkev/mypic27.jpg

[rockcrawler31]

I'm not really sure what your expectations are of the sliders and the materials you make them out of but this is my experience -

Mine are made out of 50 x 50 heavy wall tube directly under the sill's pinch weld. When i made them i postioned them so they were 2-3mm under the body (to allow for body moving around), but with any flexing of the mounts they will then be supported by the bodywork. To be honest, i have found that they refuse to flex anyway and i've landed this car on them pretty hard. As for twisting moments, if you are mounting back to the chassis which is probably the same distance inside the sills as you will be projecting them outside the sills then the sills will be in the middle of the sliders and there is no twisting moment. Only a bending stress, which to be honest, unless you are making them out of aluminium foil shouldn't be an issue.

My brother on the hand mounted his sliders to the original sidestep mounts under his 80's body. We simply put the RHS heavy wall directly under the body sills with a little bit of thin rubber strip, and made the mounts in situ. Again this works exceptionally well.

As for weight, apart from fuel usage concerns, extra weight at the sills is not something to be worried about since if anything it will help keep your COG lower

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm not really sure what your expectations are of the sliders

Tough tourer. Doesn't have to take a lot of knocks, but they may be moderately hard when you need to get there. Not as treated like a buggy

As for twisting moments, if you are mounting back to the chassis which is probably the same distance inside the sills as you will be projecting them outside the sills then the sills will be in the middle of the sliders and there is no twisting moment. Only a bending stress, which to be honest, unless you are making them out of aluminium foil shouldn't be an issue.

Steps to stick out 150mm from pinch weld
Chassis is 350mm in at the front - the 105 runs the 80 series chassis with a wider body (a long way - 450mm leverage is a lot when landed on)
Pinch weld to inside of sill is about 20-25mm.
150mm of leverage on a 25mm mount (if using the pinch weld as point 2) is a lot.

Sill inside is 100mm high in most spots, but only single wall.
Pinch weld is triple wall (3 layers - all seperate)

Sill to Floor attachment mostly glue and some spot welds from what I see.

Floor has stiffeners, and these are used as the body mounts.

As for weight, apart from fuel usage concerns, extra weight at the sills is not something to be worried about since if anything it will help keep your COG lower

Weight bothers me when I'm bogged. It also bothers me on slippery hills, for insurance (GVM) when loaded etc.
It also just bothers me cause I am silly and like elegant solutions.

Thanx
Paul

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I went from chassis mounted to sill mounted rockslides on my Pajero and am happy with them so far,
they are made from 65 x 35 x 3mm gal and have copped some good hits and no damage to the sills.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~revnkev/mypic26.jpg

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~revnkev/mypic27.jpg

I like those (a lot) - very nice.

I reckon as is they would work well in distributing the load lenthwise. Not many things running crossways to get hung up on.
Might "twist" them off if that pipe sat out 100mm as a step.
I was thinking of addind more mounts to the inside of the sill, and possibly using the pinch weld somehow.

Paul

[bad_religion_au]

Weight bothers me when I'm bogged. It also bothers me on slippery hills, for insurance (GVM) when loaded etc.
It also just bothers me cause I am silly and like elegant solutions.

Thanx
Paul

on a big cruiser, your worried about the extra, what, 20kg? do you make all your passengers take a crap before getting bogged too?

[ludacris]

I think the weight issue is going to be a tough one to beat. Normal rock sliders are too heavy for you and if you hit them as hard as you say you will they will flex and bend because of the chasis to sill design.

Now to beat the flexing issue because of the chasis distance to the sill you are thinking about a sill mounted rock slider. I think you are still going to have to use a thick wall material (weight) to cope with the hits that are going to banana an ARB step and flex a genuine rock slider.

Personally I would reconsider the rock slider chasis mount. They not only protect you sills but they can be used as a step and they keep rocks and dirt banks of your doors as they stick out about 100 to 200mm from your sills. A genuine rock slider will not banana (like an ARB exhuast pipe) and if they do flex (depending how hard) they will either hit your sill (shared load) and bounce back or just bounce back.

Cris

[bj on roids]

original concept - but you could make them rigid and lighter with better design and protect your sills better. Ther is no place for 8mm on a car.

cheers bru

good call!

[bj on roids]

Mild steel bends up, and stays up. Been there, ARB genuine , unable to open the front doors.

theres your problem. i wouldn't exactly call ARB the pinnacle of robust sliders...

[bj on roids]

Ther is no place for 8mm on a car.

cheers bru

not even for shackles?

if designed correctly it is certainly not needed, you could use 3mm with the right design.

[bj on roids]

You know what you need, its what my mate did on his 60 series.

Buy 6m of RHS. size, and thickness you require fr your weight etc.

You cut the entire sill off!

Weld a bit of RHS to the new flat section all the way along the bottom of your doors, this also gets welded underneath all the way along, and body mount tabs are added into it, it ties to the body front and back and ties to your body mounts off the chassis, it therefore moves with the body.

You then bog and paint white (assuming the car is white and most toyotas are) and can hardly tell the difference (he did a damn nice job)

It won't dent, will save weight as for everything you add, you are removing a quarter of that in the cutoff, and you gain clearance, load spreading is a given, as the weight is distributed evenly across the whole sill, not point loaded on the pinch seam. It ties in to the 3 body mounts.

[bj on roids]

[bj on roids]

He also trimmed the back and gained himself about 8" of clearance back there, no lost cargo area or anything.