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Post by **pajpwr** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:01 pm

I'm posting this in hope it may help someone, somewhere, some time. This problem WILL be sorted!

My NJ 3.5 started to develop a small noise when moving backwards in revsere, most apparent when reversing up a hill. I didn't think much of it as it could have been just a branch a couple of times, or a poor gearshift.

Anyway, I had to pay attention when I climbed a steep, rocky hill with a lot of loose shale. There was this almightly banging noise. Sounded very much like a CV joint (a Prado bust a CV on that hill, after which we had plenty of practice with the Tirfor, but that's another story.)

The noise was a bang-bang-bang, not consistent, intermittent, but sounded like metal-on-metal.

Turned out not to be the CVs, as full-lock left and right with power on did not elicit any noise. However, reversing up a hil did. Same noise, but a bit quieter.

Consensus of opinion was that something in the tranmission was at fault, for example the chain drive jumping or cog teeth missing.

Inspected the transmission; front diff, transfer case etc all fine.

So we (Bistamissin, Big Baz and myself) go out to one of our favourite tracks, another steep, rocky one and do some tests.

We get the noise happening again, and this time when I roll backwards downhill for a metre or so and then jam on the brakes.

New opinion formed; we reckon it's suspension related.

So off I go to Pedders, who give the suspension a check over and declare it to be ok. However, they recommend I replace the torsion bars, and say the engine mounts are looking a bit sad.

Tomorrow I get the engine mounts sorted, and on Friday new torsion bars go in.

Hopefully that'll fix it.

So far what we know is:

- only happens under extreme loading, eg up a rocky hill, high-torque takeoff in reverse from standstill
- doesn't happen under constant load, eg you can floor it in second and no problem
- transmission checks out ok

Having thought about it I think the torsion bars are at fault, but I need those engine mounts fixed anyway.

I'll update this thread with more info as we have it.

Cheers

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:10 pm

Yes Rob, we still think it is not driveline related and either torsion bar/wishbone related on that right hand side (engine mount is also a possibility).
It really sounded torsion bar related to me though as mine makes similar twanging (remember there is a sh1t load of tension there once they are cranked up) especially with the swaybar disconnected.
Once I got the Pedders bars in the noise quietened down substantially so I really hope thats it. There's nothing worse than changing bits left and right and the noise is still there :twisted:

Let us know how ya go.

Frank.

Post by **DougH** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:29 pm

I would agree with motor mounts, and if they recomended they change them, dont screw around with that.

Having lose mounts on the engine, and good mounts on the tranny can result in a cracked tranny case, or bellhousing.

And you definetly dont want the engine coming free in an acident, and into your lap.

Post by **redrocket** » Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:39 pm

I remember hearing similar noises coming from my front right suspension like that as well. Before i change my bars that is. When i use to turn left into my driveway i would get an almighty bang and creak thing happen like somthing smacking on somthing else.

Post by **pajpwr** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:11 am

Thanks for the ideas and support guys.

Just got a call from the mechanic. They disagree with the suspension guys and reckon the mounts are ok. So we won't change them.

Tomorrow it's torsion bar time. The bars are the only original suspension item, I have aftermarket coils at the back and Bilstein shocks on all four wheels.

Thinking back, I seem to remember some noises when at max articulation.

Hope that's it.

The Pedders people say the bars need replacing, especially as there is a Warn 8000 sitting in my garage waiting to go on the front.

Also got a bottle of oil additive which should quieten down my now-noisy lifters, especially on cold startup (more advice from Frank). I'll pop that in and see how we go.

Post by **Tropijero** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:03 pm

G'day pajpwr,

Is the sound definitely coming from the front? The reason I ask is that I have had a vehicle with a limited slip diff make horrible noises when the clutches in the diff started to catch. I would have sworn that there were teeth being sheared off. I did an oil change putting high quality LSD suitable oil in and this quietened it down.
On another topic, my 3.5 has a ticking lifter occasionally and I have found that by going to Caltex DELO500 motor oil it reduces it significantly. This is a high detergent multifleet oil. I tried several different engine oil additives and they had very little effect on the lifter noise, however they did succeeed in lightening my wallet.

Good luck.

Craig.

Post by **pajpwr** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:26 am

Definitely coming from the front. The rear diff oil has been changed (in fact, all fluids have been changed at least once in the last 4 weeks). I put the additive in and it has definitely made a difference. A little lifter noise is still there, but this morning's cold start was significantly quieter than before. I'll try that oil.

The Paj is now at Pedders, having it's new torsion bars fitted.

We will see.....

Post by **redrocket** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:52 am

oooh. soon you'll have some nice shiny red bars under your car. They look really nice when your doing the old paj salute and showing off your underside.

Post by **pajpwr** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:20 pm

Well, they're black bars but the handling has improved and the front sits higher. All good stuff.

BUT THE NOISE IS STILL THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Pedders guys are great. I think they must have spent a combined total of 5-6 hours on this, but I'm only charged for the time spent on the bars. They have asked me to call them as soon as the problem is fixed and are taking it personally! They checked over every component of the suspension, including the rear. Their conclusion is transfer case, but they don't have an explanation as to why it happens in neutral.

I'm going to go out and do some more tests. In fact, I think I might just drive Rocky Track 20 times in succession to see if I can get whatever it is to break.

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:53 pm

Rob, this is a real strange one, I'm as keen to know as the Pedders guys.
Did they do the engine mounts as well ?
I just can't see it being the t/case, it was still making the noise when the car was under no load and seemed related to weight shifting front to rear.
Also it is definitely coming from that right hand side and it is a metal to metal sound like something hitting.
My Pedders bars are red, I've never seen black ones (new model ?).
I think we should go up to Toolangi with all the boys over the long weekend for a more thorough diagnosis

Post by **pajpwr** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:32 pm

The mechanic didn't think the engine mounts needed replacing, so they haven't been. Maybe that should be done anyway. The mechanic's attitude is that they're out of ideas and regard working on it any further as a waste of their time. So for the next diagnosis I'm going elsewhere to guys who have an attitude closer to the Pedders boys.

Pedders reckon it's in the centre of the vehicle.

Yes we should do Toolangi again, that would be appreciated. Can't make Sunday though, I'm at a training course at the Werribee property.

This time we can lift the bonnet and try it; if it's the engine mounts the noise should be louder, right? And also remove the front bashplates. Maybe that will help.

If it's banging then surely somewhere there will be polished metal due to the contact. All I then need to do is insert rubber :-)

Post by **redrocket** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:31 pm

Without having heard it could it be somthing loose like the fuel tank or maybe exhaust pipes/mufflers banging. Perhaps a exhaust mount is loose or a pipe bent not sure. Could it be somthing in the tank. How about the little torque arm off the transfer case, did u check that wasn't broken or somthing?

Post by **Neilj** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:56 pm

PAJ.

RE Saga:

Iv'e had metal on metal noises a couple of times on my old Navara (RIP), the first time sounded horrible going slow, but dissappeared when I got over 20-40KPH! Ended up being a bit of fencing wire wrapped round a shaft. A cursory inspection didn't find it, as it had wrapped tight. (I now open the gates!) This was very cheap to fix.
Second time sounded more serious, and went went on for a month or so. mainly from the very back of the ute, and only in reverse. Ended up not from the back, but the gearbox! $$$$ Not cheap.
And I had to get towed home from Licola.

I wouldn't normally mention this, but you sound like your clutching at straws and both of the above had my mechanic and myself totally stuffed.

Polished my bullbar this arvo, and my wench slipped straight off!!!!

Post by **pajpwr** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 7:34 am

I would be clutching at straws if I had any straws to clutch.

The suspension has been checked and so has the transmission.

Next step is to gather more information, then make a call.

Thanks

Post by **DougH** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:11 am

What about the alignment shims. Has some one put this on a alignment machine to check this out. If you have shims fall out, happens especially in an offroad rig, the rig will make some real crappy noise.

Also what about the rear way bar mounts. They have been known the sheer on top of the axle. The bar will bounce and hit the axle, but it sometimes looks like it is still attatch.

Check all the body mounts and bushings. Also check the seats, sounds stupid I know.

I am running out of things to suggest honestly.

Post by **pajpwr** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 5:40 pm

Thanks for the suggestions, guys.

I have posted a video clip here:

http://www.peppernet.org/downloads/paj-noise2.zip (11Mb)

if anyone has any ideas, PLEASE LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see from the clip, it's pretty noisy. And it happens going downhill in neutral, which to my mind removes the transmission from consideration.

Post by **belewmoon** » Sun Jan 19, 2003 2:53 pm

Mits front ends are known to have the nuts that hold the upper control arms loosen. It happened to my '93. It was an audible clunk in the front & the nuts on one side were only finger tight.

Post by **pajpwr** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:15 am

Now it's happening in 2WD, when braking downhill, not even very hard, and also when reversing. The noise is much quieter, but it's still there.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Today's the day, I'm off to the master 4WD mechanics shortly!

Post by **DougH** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:34 pm

Slop in the tranny????

I really am stumped by this. You have me on the edge of my seat waiting for some anwser that you figured out. Alot of suspense haha.

Wheel bearings that arent set right, causing a thunk side to side?

Bushings in the tail shaft of the transfercase shifting....????

SHESH. :oops:

Post by **pajpwr** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 7:08 pm

All of which has been checked.

The RG guys were thinking it was suspension. I played them a video I made of it. But I doubt it, as it happens when the suspension is under bugger-all load, eg driving in a circle, and not when it is under considerably more load.

There's a LOT of people wanting to know the solution to the mystery, and I am foremost agmost them! Naturally I'll post here first chance I get.

I hope it'll be a $5 fix :-)

Post by **Tropijero** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 8:17 pm

Without having heard exactly what is happening (my connection is too slow to download 11 megs without making me angry) could it be the front tail shaft uni joints? You have probably checked this but I thought I would mention it.

Craig

Post by **pajpwr** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:48 am

It could be, and yes it's been checked. I'm not ruling out anything, there's been so many "I reckon it's....".

Cheers

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:39 pm

The other thing that hasn't been checked is the auto free wheeling hub.
It could be disengaging/re-engaging causing that spoking/clunking type noise, we should have checked that at Toolangi. I know of another Paj that had this problem and it was a crook vacuum solenoid.

Post by **redrocket** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:00 pm

Its funn you say that frank cause on the weekend at moreton i would go from forward to reverse and hear a clunk as i took off and the same from reverse to froward or if i was in forward and stopped and rolled back a bit an took off i would get a clunk. The noise was coming from the manual hubs. Did you have that problem with ratchetting or sumfin.

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:11 pm

Not really, I had big drama's with the internal spring that pushes the splined collar back into the hub when disengaging. The spring kept popping out of it's retainer (it was only one hub that was doing it) so it would stay locked. I pulled it apart so many times I just about stripped the hex bolts. So I ended up getting Aisin hubs from a base model diesel for $150/pair, these are way stronger than the AVM ones.
Sometimes it would clunk a bit once they were locked in and you drove off but no ratcheting.

Post by **DougH** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:48 pm

Bitsamissin wrote:Not really, I had big drama's with the internal spring that pushes the splined collar back into the hub when disengaging.

HUUUUUUUH?????

You genII came with auto hubs Frank? WTF?

It should have come with hub flanges... they are allways locked. That is why you have the CAD.

:?:

Post by **pajpwr** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:45 am

It's been at RG since Tuesday, and they are still investigating. They think it's transmission related, possibly the front diff or the mechanism that engages 4WD. Definitely not suspension.

More info as it happens.

Post by **Bitsamissin** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:30 pm

Yeah thats what I'm talking about Rob the auto free wheeling hub which is attached on the side of the front diff, when 4x4 is selected a vacuum operated plunger locks the synchronisers together to lock your front diff to the right side drive shaft (it is already connected to the left hand one).
If the synchronisers are disengaging on their own (faulty electrics/ vacuum leak etc) it can cause a clunking/ratcheting type noise. I have heard of this problem before.
Could be a likely suspect.........................

Post by **DougH** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:00 am

Bitsamissin wrote:Yeah thats what I'm talking about Rob the auto free wheeling hub which is attached on the side of the front diff,

Ah.... we call this the Central Axle Disconnect, or CAD. All axles in US with these type of system have called this CAD for a whille, pre GenII, so I guess thats why we have different terms for the same part.

To me a "hub" must be connected to my steering arm... and brake assembly.

Post by **BIGMIK** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 2:51 pm

CHECK THIS OUT, CAUSES VIBES AND NOISE ! :shock:

These "bad vibrations" can usually be felt under the driver's feet, which is where this mount resides. To confirm your suspicions, visually inspect the mount. It appears just to the driver's side of the transmission skidplate, between the frame rail and the torsion bar, and is hidden by an oval metal plate. This round bushing is approximately the diameter of your truck's inclinometer. A sleeve goes through it, inside of which is a bolt that connects the transmission/transfer assembly to the chassis. To test functionality of the mount, grab the transfer assembly from the opposite side, and check for movement. In the case of our subject vehicle, movement was quite pronounced; I was able to physically move the entire assembly a range of over 5 cm (2.5 inches). Note that some movement is required, otherwise the drivetrain would not be sufficiently isolated. The bushing in this particular case was totally deformed, allowing the transmission/transfer assembly to move considerably.

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