Scenic Rim Challenge Final 2009 Round and Dinner 5-6th Dec

[booflux]

Shane its good to see someone asking the competitors what they want. Hopefully you can find a happy medium or at least seeing as the discussion has been made people will be happy to leave it at what was decided knowing they had some input.

[nastytroll]

I know I have said it before but the reason why extreme mod isn't at 37" tyres is because most vehicles drive train won't take a 37" tyre. I don't want the extreme mod class made up of 15 Patrols.

At the moment we only have a couple of people in Outlaw class. There is plenty of room for more drivers with 37's.

In the modified class (33' Tyre class) I want people to just bring their weekend wheeler and comp it. Most weekend wheelers don't have beadlocks. Therefore we are just forced to keep the pressures higher.

Shane

Sorry, I haven't read the thread from the start. I don't think a daily would be good to put through outlaw. A 2800kg coil cab up agaist yuri is abit silly. I would rather take a penalty or run smaller tyres. It is a comp and I would like to be competative on a vehicle standard atleast, whether I can drive or not.

Your rules, your comp. I will fit in or go else where. I'm not fussed either way, I realy only enjoy night runs.

[nairbo]

WTF. Your alowd to run front locker because your unfortunate enough to buy IFS car???
Does that mean patrols need to drive backwards.
You can't possibly rate specs to vehicle drivetrain layout.

No matter what condition, you can't say LSD is same as open. LSD doesn't work, fix it. Drive smarter.

31" in stock class?
That's about 5" gain to a Sierra, same diff clearance as a patrol on 36"
or a Hilux on 35"

Dead right!..

A traction aid is a traction aid is a traction aid...
All this BS about some LSD's not being good enough... fix it, modify it or buy a fookin locker.......

No way is a rear locked anything as capable as an IFS rig with an LSD rear and a locked front...

31's on a stock Sierra or XJ/TJ Jeep.... nothing else would get near them!.
Stock class should be for mums shopping trolley with some muddies on it.
How good would it be to see every brand out there in stock class, on an even playing field?..

x2

keep it simple

[nottie]

I know I have said it before but the reason why extreme mod isn't at 37" tyres is because most vehicles drive train won't take a 37" tyre. I don't want the extreme mod class made up of 15 Patrols.

At the moment we only have a couple of people in Outlaw class. There is plenty of room for more drivers with 37's.

In the modified class (33' Tyre class) I want people to just bring their weekend wheeler and comp it. Most weekend wheelers don't have beadlocks. Therefore we are just forced to keep the pressures higher.

Shane

Shane most pootrols break shit with 37s Thats why they all seem to run 35s

[def90]

I know I have said it before but the reason why extreme mod isn't at 37" tyres is because most vehicles drive train won't take a 37" tyre. I don't want the extreme mod class made up of 15 Patrols.

At the moment we only have a couple of people in Outlaw class. There is plenty of room for more drivers with 37's.

In the modified class (33' Tyre class) I want people to just bring their weekend wheeler and comp it. Most weekend wheelers don't have beadlocks. Therefore we are just forced to keep the pressures higher.

Shane

Shane most pootrols break shit with 37s Thats why they all seem to run 35s

nottie you got it all wrong it's cause you need a 8"-12" lift on a troll for 37's

[def90]

oh yeah and shane good work on trying to workshop this, just don't try and overthink it

P.S. not that i am any comp organiser

[P@nda]

Hey shane would it be worth sitting down with 1 or 2
competitors from each class aswell as yourself
and brendan to discuss this?

[nastytroll]

Hey shane would it be worth sitting down with 1 or 2
competitors from each class aswell as yourself
and brendan to discuss this?

You will find competitors will try change rules to suit themselves.

Simple rules work, simple specs. Even have a look at other comps n see what works.

[P@nda]

Yeah thats true.
IMO the rules dnt need major change as they are
they just need to policed more precisely.

[Suspension Stuff]

I know I have said it before but the reason why extreme mod isn't at 37" tyres is because most vehicles drive train won't take a 37" tyre. I don't want the extreme mod class made up of 15 Patrols.

At the moment we only have a couple of people in Outlaw class. There is plenty of room for more drivers with 37's.

In the modified class (33' Tyre class) I want people to just bring their weekend wheeler and comp it. Most weekend wheelers don't have beadlocks. Therefore we are just forced to keep the pressures higher.

Shane

Sorry, I haven't read the thread from the start. I don't think a daily would be good to put through outlaw. A 2800kg coil cab up agaist yuri is abit silly. I would rather take a penalty or run smaller tyres. It is a comp and I would like to be competative on a vehicle standard atleast, whether I can drive or not.

Your rules, your comp. I will fit in or go else where. I'm not fussed either way, I realy only enjoy night runs.

Why would you be against Yuri? He is in Buggy/Truggy class. Outlaw isn't anything goes anymore. Outlaw have stock chassis between and including suspension points. I don't see why you can't be competitive in Outlaw. Your biggest threat is 11 Evil, in fact your only threat at the moment.

Shane

[Suspension Stuff]

Hey shane would it be worth sitting down with 1 or 2
competitors from each class aswell as yourself
and brendan to discuss this?

Possibly, which 2 people from each class. I have been talking to Brenden and I have been listening to people all year from the classes but I am hoping to achieve the same thing on this forum.

Shane

[AngryElmo]

STOCK CLASS

Maximum 2” Lift – 10 point penalty for every inch above
EDIT: 31" Tyres Maximum
Must be registered
Factory (stock) drive line
No bead locks.
Tyres must be legal for road use (Radial Mud Terrains not bias)
Standard links can be made stronger or replaced with a stronger part.
Body Protection ok (Front/rear bars/sliders/roll cages etc...)
There is a points penalty for tyres (10 points per inch bigger in diameter but the penalty may increase throughout the season so the guys with bigger tyres don't win)
Frequent series winners may be asked to step up to “street modified” or forfeit prizes for a while

STREET MODIFIED

Maximum 4 inch lift (including body lifts)
Maximum 33 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
(If you run 35” tyres you must be unlocked and you will be asked to stop for excessive wheel spin. You will also receive a 10 point penalty for every inch over 33 in diameter)
Rear axle locker or LSD. (Open centres ok)
No front axle traction aids
No bead locks
Mod plated engine/gearbox/transfer case conversions
Mod plated independant to live axle conversions ok.
Must be registered
Axle changes/upgrades ok(ratios, axles LSD's, locker choice)
Body Protection allowed including Exo Cages (Ladder Racks)
Stock suspension mounting points (Can be strengthened)(no coil overs or air shocks)
Chassis dimensions must not be modified between your suspension points.
You can shorten your chassis at the extremities but your wheel base can't be modified. These mods must be done legally so consult an Engineer.
Frequent series winners may be asked to wheel with outlaw or to forfeit prizes for a while.

EXTREME MODIFIED

Any lift (2” body lifts)
Maximum 35 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
20 point penalty per inch higher. (Bigger tyres may outlawed or penalty increased if it isn't enough penalty)
Any traction aids.
Roll cages ok.
Window nets necessary.
Must be registered.
If you have the ability to raise or lower your suspension it must not be used while on a stage (eg. Hydraulic, air bags)
Engine/Axle/Gearbox/Transfer changes allowed
Independant to live axle conversions allowed.
EDIT Beadlocks ok, so far anyway.
Shock absorber mounting points may be modified, (no coil overs, air shocks)
Chassis dimensions must not be modified between your suspension points.
You can shorten your chassis at the extremities but your wheel base can't be modified unless you have a mod plate.
Frequent series winners may be asked to wheel with the buggies or asked to forfeit some prizes for a while

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

i think that this works well, just need to sort out the little things like tyre size but suspension lift and lockers/ traction aids works well.

i think that at sime point ur just going to have to say this is how it will be orelse this will go on forever.......

[harrisbm]

Don't get to excited about the rules. nothing is fixed and this is just ideas. The final rules will be posted on SRAP site 1st

[Suspension Stuff]

As soon as I am satisfied and Brenden is happy to sign off on it I will post it up.

I don't think we have altered much from the rules we had at the beginning of the season though.

Shane

[1MadEngineer]

Shane most pootrols break shit with 37s Thats why they all seem to run 35s

nottie you got it all wrong it's cause you need a 8"-12" lift on a troll for 37's

probably some of the best statements made so far!


realistically regulating lift size means fark-all, it just seems to make it harder for officials to police, and more arguing points for competitors.

IMO purely segregating classes by tire size and traction device has the most benefit.
eg:
1 - upto max 32" (or metric equiv), no lockers rear LSD only, any lift, original suspension config.
2 - 35" max (or metric equiv), 1locker OR traction device, any lift.
3 - 37" max (or metric equiv), 2locker OR traction devices, any lift, compulsory winch.
4 - tires open, any lift, full OE body (ute as min.), chassis unmodified from front diff to B pillar.
5 - anything goes.

lets be real, a nissan on 32 but with 7" of lift is not going to be any better than a sierra on 31's with 4", or a jeep on 31/32's with a 3". BUT all are very common mods and are aimed at the budget guys that are keen to mix it up, but have just a basic tire upgrade.

Then 35"max and 1 locker. A guy with a well driven jeep with a rear locker on 33's with a 4" lift will have a ball battling it out against a nissan with either a good LSD or rear locker on 35's. And even a SPOA zuk on 32's with a rear welded diff is a weapon.

The 37" max class just allows something which is in line with pretty much all the other comps out there and most guys won't have to mod at all. But the same goes hear, a SPOA zuk on 35's double locked would be damn good against a 4-5" nissan on 37's.

The reason for getting rid of lift rules is easy. Most guys have now worked out big lifts are often worse, so they are getting well thoughtout low lifts. But tire size seems to be the big equaliser, there is only so much you can do with a set size tire, and there is only so much traction you can get before ground pressure starts to become your enemy.

[AngryElmo]

As soon as I am satisfied and Brenden is happy to sign off on it I will post it up.

I don't think we have altered much from the rules we had at the beginning of the season though.

Shane

to be honest i dont think there was much wrong with the orignal rules, it just needed to be stuck to and said this is it like it or dont play. nottie dose have some good points, but more lift usually comes with more travel and approch angle and can make a difference. but as he said, also makes for a run ride

[RED24]

I have also changed the stock tyre size to 31". It just makes it easier I think. It may disadvantage the larger vehicles but they are usually more capable anyway so it should hopefully even up the field.

Shane

wont be in class
31 inch tyre on a zook is an advantage
as i think your a bit harsh on the capable part the zooks are every bit as capable in standard if not more capable

[RED24]

Yeah thats true.
IMO the rules dnt need major change as they are
they just need to policed more precisely.

said all to well
no change just police

[RED24]

couple of changes






SCORING

2 Point penalty for stopping and continuing forward.
3 reversing
5 Point penalty for rock stacking per 20 seconds.(Put the rocks back when you finish the stage)
10 Point penalty for every cone that you hit.
10 Point penalty for breaking bunting (You may be asked to stop if you are taking an unfair advantage) (please fix what you break)
20 Point penalty for missing an obstacle if the Marshal allows you to continue.

It isn't a race, you will not be timed.
If you are stuck for more then 2 minutes the marshal will call it.

STOCK CLASS= have fun

Maximum 2” Lift – 5 point penalty for every inch above
stock tyres or 10 point per track
Must be registered

STREET MODIFIED = have fun


Maximum 33 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
(If you run 35” tyres you must be unlocked and you will be asked to stop for excessive wheel spin.
Rear axle locker or LSD. (Open centres ok)
No front lsd or locker
No bead locks
Mod plated engine/gearbox/transfer case conversions
Mod plated independant to live axle conversions ok.
Must be registered


EXTREME MODIFIED =go nuts,have fun

Any lift (2” body lifts)
Maximum 35 inch tyres (as stated on sidewall, any construction)
20 point penalty per inch higher per track.
Any traction aids.
Roll cages ok.
Window nets necessary.
Must be registered.


OUTLAW ====f@@kin cool every time, and have fun

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.




my thoughts
also if someone has an issue it should be heard by a marshall
aknowledged before the end of the comp

as the marshalls are very busy during the day if they are scoring it might not be a great idea to try and talkl to them

personally i would opt to keep scores till the end of the day so people dont get so excited to push.

[Suspension Stuff]

Nah I love how the scores go up during the day.

Also I don't think the penalty should be too harsh for stopping especially for a couple of seconds. This is why I propose we slightly increase the reverse penalty.

I also propose that someone else Marshalls the Outlaw section so we can watch Brenden smash his 75 series and also have a great time.

Shane

[nastytroll]

Nah I love how the scores go up during the day.

Also I don't think the penalty should be too harsh for stopping especially for a couple of seconds. This is why I propose we slightly increase the reverse penalty.

I also propose that someone else Marshalls the Outlaw section so we can watch Brenden smash his 75 series and also have a great time.

Shane

I agree with the stop penalty, due to being a safety hazard. I have seen a few navi's hit after a slip while trying to stay in front of a vehicle chasing them to avoid a penalty.

[AngryElmo]

in the lower 2 classes is it worth having a penality for sustaining body damage?? not everyone is willing to drive there car into a tree and those who do often dont care to much about there cars and can push ot harder to go further, it takes more skill to drive around the obsticals rather than into them...... just a thought. might make ppl drive better lines.....

[Jameslux]

fark this is a funny thread!

reminds me of every time an event organisor TRIES to do the right thing and opens up there rulings for discussion.

Always seems to end with either RUFF cracking it at some dickh##ds and threatening to ban them, or the guys wanting to run the comp saying "farkit tooo hard"

Brendan / Shane, get together and have a CLOSED meeting about this stuff, learn and take advice ONLY from others that have REAL experience in event organisation. Set the rules YOU want to run! Then if competitors show up it will be a good event. Don't listen to crap, this always seems to mean the eventual death of best intentions.

All this whinging and crap about a FUN COMP is a cop out. IT IS A COMP, and yes you can 'enjoy' the event which might be considered as fun. IF you just want to have fun, then stay at home and play with yourself!
After years of competing it almost always seems the guys that start whinging "but its meant to be a fun comp" are the ones that always seem to try and bend the rules or want the rules changed to suit them. They also seem to be the guys that turn up waaaaaaaay underprepared and have little to no safety or recovery equipment, and are the first to critisize the event (including how they are run and how the poor guy wasting hours to recover their POS "scratched it").

Sorry if it sounds like a rant BUT there are probably a dozen comp organisers on this board that will agree 100%. Just read ANY of the Toughtracks threads or tufftruck or XWC or...........

Right on Greg.

Stick with your rules and enforce it its your comp.

31's are a good choice stick with it. Any gigger and you push out the smaller trucks.

[gqsafari]

Shane, I believe what you have set out for outlaw is an excellent start...However i do have one question...because my SWB Patrol which has been cut into a ute has the rear diff moved back 280mm to make my car more stable means that I have to run in the buggy class.

Can you please clariy what i am stating is correct???

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

[Suspension Stuff]

I can't see that being a problem in Outlaw class. The idea is so people don't chop the chassis right off before the suspension components like a Truggy. Maybe someone can help me word it better. I haven't had much feedback on this class so I am not quite sure where the boundaries should be.

11 Evil, what do you think?

Shane

[OIIIO]

Gqsafari...

I reckon if it's still got the full cab, and original chassis.

It's definitely not a buggy...

well that's my version

[big wheel sigma]

Shane, I believe what you have set out for outlaw is an excellent start...However i do have one question...because my SWB Patrol which has been cut into a ute has the rear diff moved back 280mm to make my car more stable means that I have to run in the buggy class.

Can you please clariy what i am stating is correct???

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

Shane,

IF the sigma had a chassis extension to a MWB with an extra cab, live front axle, patrol f/r and locked, EXO cage and tube tray.
What class
Just thinking out loud ofcourse

[AngryElmo]

Shane, I believe what you have set out for outlaw is an excellent start...However i do have one question...because my SWB Patrol which has been cut into a ute has the rear diff moved back 280mm to make my car more stable means that I have to run in the buggy class.

Can you please clariy what i am stating is correct???

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

Shane,

IF the sigma had a chassis extension to a MWB with an extra cab, live front axle, patrol f/r and locked, EXO cage and tube tray.
What class
Just thinking out loud ofcourse

OUTLAW HA ha id like to see it, i reckon it would be awesome

[Suspension Stuff]

Shane, I believe what you have set out for outlaw is an excellent start...However i do have one question...because my SWB Patrol which has been cut into a ute has the rear diff moved back 280mm to make my car more stable means that I have to run in the buggy class.

Can you please clariy what i am stating is correct???

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

Shane,

IF the sigma had a chassis extension to a MWB with an extra cab, live front axle, patrol f/r and locked, EXO cage and tube tray.
What class
Just thinking out loud ofcourse

Extreme Modified I think.

You haven't changed to coil overs or air shocks and will be running no bigger then 35" tyres.

Shane

[1MadEngineer]

Shane, I believe what you have set out for outlaw is an excellent start...However i do have one question...because my SWB Patrol which has been cut into a ute has the rear diff moved back 280mm to make my car more stable means that I have to run in the buggy class.

Can you please clariy what i am stating is correct???

OUTLAW

Chassis dimensions must be as standard between suspension mounts.
Any suspension but don't cut your chassis rails to fit it in.
Any sized tyres
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

BUGGIES / TRUGGIES

Cones may be moved slightly for frequent winners to keep the competition even from month to month.
Kill switch mounted within reach of driver and appropriately marked.
Must have harnesses, window nets and helmets and roll cage, internal or external.

Shane,

IF the sigma had a chassis extension to a MWB with an extra cab, live front axle, patrol f/r and locked, EXO cage and tube tray.
What class
Just thinking out loud ofcourse

Extreme Modified I think.

You haven't changed to coil overs or air shocks and will be running no bigger then 35" tyres.

Shane

so then if we put 33's on then can we enter 'street modified'