Lockers what for what $$$

Post by **jtraf** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:32 pm

Well from my EOI thread there has been a lot of discussion about lockers and the variants that are available on the market today. What is best and then what is best value for money at the end of the day.

The idea in principal behind a sierra from my perspective is cheap vehicle that has lots of potential straight out of the factory. In order to harnass the potential of the sierra there are many road to with many different prices associated to them.

locking the diffs is one avenue to increase offroad ability and there are many different ways to achieve this in the humble sierra.

1. CIG locker
This method involves the welding of side gears and internal mechanism of either the front and or rear diffs of the sierra. Benefits are that you are locked and have true 4wd and the sierra's take very well to this. With their light weight they can handle the permently locked rear both on and offroad and we sierra owners can learn to live with the chirping bouncing and other funy behaviour that a welded rear end has. Welded front on the other had increase offroad ability and the size of you biceps as steering offroad becomes an issue as you can not unlock. Steering effort is incereased proportion to the size of your tyres and steering ability of the car is determined by surface you are negotiating. cheap nasty and effective but sticking with pedigree of the sierra non the less. Welded centers are not permanent and from what I have seen will fail in the long run due to stresses being applied to gears and internals that were never designed to be welded........this could be day one of five years later but inevitably it will occur. Cost $20-$300 depending how much of the remove/weld/refit you can do yourself??????

2. Mini spool
the priniple is the same as the cig but instead of welding the centre gears together there are removed and a sold machines centre is installed. This effectivly removes the weekness seen in the welded gears and permantly locks both axles together. Steering effort and turn cirle will be increased but cog weakness will be removed. Onroad manner is no different from CIG but effectively a permanent locked centre with little chance of failure as per welded centres
cost $200 landed + install costs per diff

3. auto locker
These come in many flavors and have the same effect of locking diffs both front and rear but unlike a welded centre and spool they will allow unlocking when cornering onroad in the rear in some conditions. They are noisy in operation and are an interim step between a cig locked centre and a manually locking system. These systems rely on springs pressure and other variable to lock and unlock hence the noise factor of the operation but work well. With the these steering responce and effort is increased and from what I have seen they doo have a tendancy to unlock mid corner when not wanted.
Cost $400 - $1000 depending on which type you buy and how much of the install you do yourself

4. Manual lockers
These really are the business for a 4x4 of any sort. The ability to choose when you want to lock you diffs offroad the ability to have open diffs at all other time especially on road. The king of these is the ARB air locker and do not get me wrong these items really are the whole hog. Replacing the entire diff centre mechansim with an air operated locking mechansim you have the ability to choose if and when they are operated and how long for. They can be turned off for steering and when no in use do not hinder the car in any manner. Weekness is that the air lines are susceptible to damage and when they stop get ripped out no more lockers. O-ring failure is also another grip with the ARB items and with an item at this premium price this really is a significant design flaw. To replace the o-ring requires diff to pulled down and centre removed. $10 orings do cost $$$ to fix if you can't live with the ARB oil sneeze.....
cost $1300+ an end fitted plus compressor and associated cost

If I have missed any type chip in.

Let the discussion begin.........

I am going to trial the China locker which is an item along the line of the ARB but at a fraction of the cost. Yes you get what you pay for I understand that but the cost of these units fits the principle of a sierra.....a cheap fun car to go out enjoy and learn to tinker with..........

Post by **nicbeer** » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:36 pm

auto lockers are genrally always locked in a sierra also due to low weight.

I run auto up front and welded in back of mine. cant fault it offroad, front without power steering is heavy but can be overcome.

Post by **mrRocky** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:47 am

i have a welded rear and its not much fun as a daily, unless its wet that is

Post by **grimbo** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:05 am

I had an air locker and auto locker in my Zul. The air locker was the prototype one which along with Mooses's a guy in the Us and a guy in Japan were used as test units. We were told to do what we could to try and break them. Only the Japanese guy did by launching the vehicle at very high revs and slamming itdown breaking many things at once. I never had O ring problems with it, Jada couple of air line issue due to placement plus locating pins early on. It was an awesome mod well worth doing.

The auto locker I had was an LA Locker, a precursor to the Detroit. It was loud, clunky but very effective.

The addition of lockers to the Sierra made the biggest improvement in performance will be interested to see how the Cinese versionsgo

Post by **DiddyZook** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:17 am

Locrite from Richmond Gears US was only about $200 couple of years ago (despite $700 prices quoted on here). It was cheaper to get direct from US, <5 day delivery.

Works great, as stated above due to Sierra lightweight never a problem on corners. Massive improvement.

Personally I suspect the Chinese lockers will be fine for Zuk. They would have been developed for larger heavier 4wds, so Zuk is unlikeley yo stress them. I would have liked to put an air locker in the front as it can be switched off to aid steering, but ARB are way too much to justify. I like the option of Chinese front locrite back. Or for those who don't yet have a locker go China front and back.

Post by **alien** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:11 am

i've had a welded rear and now ARB rear - the ARB one is FAR superior! I'd love to get a front locker as its the only thing holding my zuk back from slightly trickier tracks, but as mentioned - theyre not cheap =)

Also - everyone with front lockers - are you running rear axles etc in the front for strength?

Post by cj » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:47 am

alien wrote:
Also - everyone with front lockers - are you running rear axles etc in the front for strength?

Sure if you only want to drive in a straight line

Post by cj » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am

There is also the KAM manual locker for the rear of Sierra's and Jimny's and coming this year for Vitara's which also include heavy duty axle shafts. Won't be cheap to get here though.

http://www.kamdiffs.com/four_by_four.ph ... ff_Lock672

Post by **danssurf82** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:21 pm

i have read a bit on these KAM lockers.... would cost a fortune to install id u dont do it all yourself

also what happens when u do snap an axel? wait 2 weeks for one to come from US? not the best idea....

air lockers all the way... i wanna get a front china air for my vit....

Post by **alien** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:25 pm

cj wrote:
alien wrote:
Also - everyone with front lockers - are you running rear axles etc in the front for strength?
Sure if you only want to drive in a straight line

axles, not diffs =)

Post by **joeblow** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:38 pm

alien wrote:
cj wrote:
alien wrote:
Also - everyone with front lockers - are you running rear axles etc in the front for strength?
Sure if you only want to drive in a straight line
axles, not diffs =)

still.....only if you want to to straight....rear axles have no cv's...

i think you mean 26 spline fronts.

Post by **alien** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:32 pm

lol, yeah that =) same thing =D

Seeing as theres no cost difference between ARB front or rear lockers, you could run the rear side gears and 26 spline axles... so you get a bit more beef for your buck at the same time.

Post by **mr green** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:05 pm

alien wrote: Seeing as theres no cost difference between ARB front or rear lockers, you could run the rear side gears and 26 spline axles... so you get a bit more beef for your buck at the same time.

i was only talking to turbo tonka about this the other day. my thoughts are, i would only consider locking my front if i had double tuffs. and if that was the case i wouldn't want a chinese locker to fail and wreck $600 axles. but then the thought of double tuffs ($600ish) plus arb locker($1200) plus the snake high steer knuckle (bought second hand but about a grand new) all of a sudden your up to near 3 grand in a front diff

there has got to be a better solution. for me i'll leave my front open for as long as i can stand it. but i still have the fury bits on my tyres after 2.5 years, so that might be a while

Post by **joeblow** » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:25 pm

mr green wrote: there has got to be a better solution.

there is.....its called just buying a normal road car. just look at the money thrown at custom diffs in the states. also, if you were to go to suzuki and order all the parts needed to make a front diff i bet the cost would be in excess of 3 grand.

Post by **mr green** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:03 am

joeblow wrote:
mr green wrote: there has got to be a better solution.
there is.....its called just buying a normal road car. just look at the money thrown at custom diffs in the states. also, if you were to go to suzuki and order all the parts needed to make a front diff i bet the cost would be in excess of 3 grand.

joe, i regard most of what you say as being almost gospel, but i'm a bit confused. Is that a nice way to call me a tight ar$e? i know a front diff would cost more than $3k to buy new but that doesn't make it any stronger, include locker or crossover steer. i was comparing the above to toyota swap or similar that wouldn't require aftermarket axles, cheaper steering and similar priced locker.
btw. i am am a tight ar$e

Post by **BlueSuzy** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:59 pm

mr green wrote:
alien wrote: Seeing as theres no cost difference between ARB front or rear lockers, you could run the rear side gears and 26 spline axles... so you get a bit more beef for your buck at the same time.
i was only talking to turbo tonka about this the other day. my thoughts are, i would only consider locking my front if i had double tuffs. and if that was the case i wouldn't want a chinese locker to fail and wreck $600 axles. but then the thought of double tuffs ($600ish) plus arb locker($1200) plus the snake high steer knuckle (bought second hand but about a grand new) all of a sudden your up to near 3 grand in a front diff there has got to be a better solution. for me i'll leave my front open for as long as i can stand it. but i still have the fury bits on my tyres after 2.5 years, so that might be a while

Ditto. My front is open and flexy. You only need front locker if you have a wheel in the air mainly..my rear is locked cig.

Front diff strength/rebuild and locked = welded bundera's for me! If leafs as spoa, all i need to sort is my steering. (not that hard with a mill machine)

Post by **joeblow** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:03 pm

mr green wrote:
joeblow wrote:
mr green wrote: there has got to be a better solution.
there is.....its called just buying a normal road car. just look at the money thrown at custom diffs in the states. also, if you were to go to suzuki and order all the parts needed to make a front diff i bet the cost would be in excess of 3 grand.
joe, i regard most of what you say as being almost gospel, but i'm a bit confused. Is that a nice way to call me a tight ar$e? i know a front diff would cost more than $3k to buy new but that doesn't make it any stronger, include locker or crossover steer. i was comparing the above to toyota swap or similar that wouldn't require aftermarket axles, cheaper steering and similar priced locker.
btw. i am am a tight ar$e

haha....no...not saying you are a tight wad. but to go toyota stuff would mean acting like a toyota driver too.......be carefull.

after you spend that 3g's on the suzuki axle it will be one sweet front end though (and you should not have to change any of those bits for a very very long time), and still climb over more stuff than those 'toyota' axle type peole.

Post by **alien** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:48 pm

BlueSuzy wrote:
mr green wrote:
alien wrote: Seeing as theres no cost difference between ARB front or rear lockers, you could run the rear side gears and 26 spline axles... so you get a bit more beef for your buck at the same time.
i was only talking to turbo tonka about this the other day. my thoughts are, i would only consider locking my front if i had double tuffs. and if that was the case i wouldn't want a chinese locker to fail and wreck $600 axles. but then the thought of double tuffs ($600ish) plus arb locker($1200) plus the snake high steer knuckle (bought second hand but about a grand new) all of a sudden your up to near 3 grand in a front diff there has got to be a better solution. for me i'll leave my front open for as long as i can stand it. but i still have the fury bits on my tyres after 2.5 years, so that might be a while
Ditto. My front is open and flexy. You only need front locker if you have a wheel in the air mainly..my rear is locked cig.

Front diff strength/rebuild and locked = welded bundera's for me! If leafs as spoa, all i need to sort is my steering. (not that hard with a mill machine)

In my case, its not about lifting a wheel so much as steering - as soon as you turn the wheel you unlock the front diff cos its open and get 1 wheel driving at the front... sometimes that one wheel only has 20% of the vehicles front weight on it, while the unlocked one has the other 80% and isnt being driven - a locker would get that happening, and being an airlocker i'd have the ability to choose when i wanted it coming in to play rather then the welded option which will forever leave you wondering if you're actually going to turn or not =)

Post by **BlueSuzy** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:12 pm

Run independant front brakes

1 spins? Brake that wheel and the other will drive!

Never seen that in action though. Would be alot of work..

Post by **VR Rodeo** » Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:49 pm

BlueSuzy wrote:Run independant front brakes

1 spins? Brake that wheel and the other will drive!

Never seen that in action though. Would be alot of work..

You could run a line lock on each line ?

Correct me if I am wrong, but do air lockers unlock when under load. Say you are going up a steep, rocky hill with a turn in it or a big rock that you need to drive around. If you switch the air locker off, does it unlock straight away or does it stay locked affecting steering ?

Post by **Jacked** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:43 pm

VR Rodeo wrote:
BlueSuzy wrote:Run independant front brakes

1 spins? Brake that wheel and the other will drive!

Never seen that in action though. Would be alot of work..
You could run a line lock on each line ?

Correct me if I am wrong, but do air lockers unlock when under load. Say you are going up a steep, rocky hill with a turn in it or a big rock that you need to drive around. If you switch the air locker off, does it unlock straight away or does it stay locked affecting steering ?

unlock instantly

Post by **alien** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:12 pm

VR Rodeo wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but do air lockers unlock when under load. Say you are going up a steep, rocky hill with a turn in it or a big rock that you need to drive around. If you switch the air locker off, does it unlock straight away or does it stay locked affecting steering ?

Instant unlock, as soon as you take out the air pressure it opens up - go to your local ARB store - theyll have a cut-away locker you can play with - you can turn the axles by hand, lock it and unlock it to test how it all works (and see it working on the inside).

Thats why theyre the superior option - you are in full control over when they will lock or unlock... it can also be the reason theyre a bad idea as some people dont know when to turn them on or off =)

Post by **zookprojectfnq** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:26 pm

I have a twin locked 75 series and have notice that in that scenario, if you switch them off they dont unlock if they have torque on them where an auto locker, thats when they do unlock

Post by **VR Rodeo** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:00 pm

zookprojectfnq wrote:I have a twin locked 75 series and have notice that in that scenario, if you switch them off they dont unlock if they have torque on them where an auto locker, thats when they do unlock

I had heard similar too

Post by **alien** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:43 pm

you have to come off the pedal to unlock - ARB recommend having the wheels in a straight line to engage/disengage the locker. So you flick the switch, blip the throttle (off) and off you go back to unlocked... to lock you just hit the switch - and you dont have to stop to engage it.

So if you were locked F&R up a hill with a bend at the top, youd get to just before the bend then unlock the front and drive on up. This is providing the bend didnt require the locked front though.

Post by **carl garson** » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:27 pm

what about LSD

Post by **thehanko** » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:26 am

alien wrote:you have to come off the pedal to unlock - ARB recommend having the wheels in a straight line to engage/disengage the locker. So you flick the switch, blip the throttle (off) and off you go back to unlocked... to lock you just hit the switch - and you dont have to stop to engage it.

So if you were locked F&R up a hill with a bend at the top, youd get to just before the bend then unlock the front and drive on up. This is providing the bend didnt require the locked front though.

thats where it gets fun.

when i first got my front locked i almost drove up the bank at the top when id didnt unlock

yeah the arb ones dont unlock when under load, but you learn how to sort it and it causes little or no problems.

Was driving in the high country in 4h last week and my dog managed to switch on front and rear lockers without me realising... i thought something in the car was proper fcuked

irrelevant but funny.

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