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fabricating a currie/swaybar getting flex even

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fabricating a currie/swaybar getting flex even

Post by rockcrawler31 »

Ok, so now i've finished the build on the little red devil i'm finding it's weak points and trying to engineer them out.

Main one i'm working on is getting the flex evened out front to rear. The tri-4 link rear end flexes like mad because the springs had to be inboarded from the chassis rails and the front axle refuses to move. I've got lockers front and rear so i'm not doing this for the traction, i want stability. The entire car simply follows the front axle, i.e. ramping it backwards leaves the car level and rear does the work, ramping it forwards or dropping into a creek with a front tyre makes it lean over so bad i nearly puke with fear :lol: I've even tried flexing it forwards with the front compression side spring out and still no joy.

So i've got two options as i see it. get the rear springs outboarded more to reduce the pivoting motion on the instant centre and provide more leverage on the front or fabricate a Currie Antirock style swaybar for the rear.

The way i see it i can't get option one to work. To have the coils under the chassis rails i would have to have them mounted on outriggers behind the axle housing to get enough vertical space. Alternatively, i thought about running coilovers outside the rails but the tyre would likely foul them on compression as it moved up and tilted inwards.

For option two i was thinking of finding a torsion bar from an IFS truck that suited the width of my chassis rails and making a sway bar.

Some questions and ideas i had about this

Rather than have splines cut into the arms i was thinking about getting the factory suspension arms and/or torsion bar chassis mounts and cutting out the splined ends to weld onto 15mm plate torsion arms. I could either martack them on or even cut a slot into the outer splines so i can clamp them down.

By using a factory torsion bar i could get different rate bars if i need grossly more or less torque. small adjustments could be done with multiple holes in the arms.

since factory torsion bars usually have slimmer waists and thicker spline sections i could mount it with pillow block made out of tube welded to plate, with two piece bushes turned out of HDPE with grease channels and a grease nipple.

So questions

What do people think of the idea overall

To see if this is going to work before doing all the fab, i was going to tie the axles with limiter straps (webbing) at ride height, before flexing it up to see if the limited rear end would force the front to work. Is this a reasonable way to replicate the effect of a rear sway bar?

If the torsion bar is longer than the chassis is wide, is there any reason i can't mount it above the chassis rail with the pillow blocks on top of the rails? it would make for longer axle tube links but would get it out of the way of the driveshaft easier.

If it's as wide as the rails i will have to mount it under i guess.

Any reason i can't have the links mounted to the trailing arms?

Any guidelines what size material to make the arms and heim-jointed axle links out of. As the links get longer how would i calculate the required material size to withstand the compressive stress on the compression side? and what size heim?
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Post by crankycruiser »

Id really like to see pics of this set up.. i have a similar problem with my 80... my rear end is doing all the work and my superflex arms are doing bugger all
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

crankycruiser wrote:Id really like to see pics of this set up.. i have a similar problem with my 80... my rear end is doing all the work and my superflex arms are doing bugger all
Come to siddaney and help me work on it then. :D

bring cranky up while you're at it and we'll go out to lithgow for a wheel afterwards
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Post by crankycruiser »

rockcrawler31 wrote:
crankycruiser wrote:Id really like to see pics of this set up.. i have a similar problem with my 80... my rear end is doing all the work and my superflex arms are doing bugger all
Come to siddaney and help me work on it then. :D

bring cranky up while you're at it and we'll go out to lithgow for a wheel afterwards
haha would love to.. but im in WA at the mo for work and Cranky is in tassie :cry:
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Post by OIIIO »

Sorry for the ignornace...

What type of 4x4, and what front suspension has it got?
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

OIIIO wrote:Sorry for the ignornace...

What type of 4x4, and what front suspension has it got?
No worries mate. the build thread has a lot to sift through

75x chassis, 80x diff housings, Radius arm front with 2DExtreme custom arms 300mm longer than standard 80x arms. Tri 4 link rear with parallel lowers and tri uppers. HD coils so far in the rear so going heavier will make it ride like a bullock dray.

Most of the weight is over the front with a diesel motor and cut down troopy cab into extra cab configuration. I was looking at going for slotted bushes but one or two that i have spoken to have indicated that the problem is not in the radius arms but the huge difference in the width of the coils front to rear. By example my brother in law's well sorted 3 inch 80 series has far better flex in the front with stock arms and bushes, with better matched front to rear flex.

Edit: I'm also hoping that the sway bar in the rear will help with cross slope roll stiffness without compromising flex too much.
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Post by OIIIO »

rockcrawler31 wrote:
OIIIO wrote:Sorry for the ignornace...

What type of 4x4, and what front suspension has it got?
No worries mate. the build thread has a lot to sift through

75x chassis, 80x diff housings, Radius arm front with 2DExtreme custom arms 300mm longer than standard 80x arms. Tri 4 link rear with parallel lowers and tri uppers. HD coils so far in the rear so going heavier will make it ride like a bullock dray.

Most of the weight is over the front with a diesel motor and cut down troopy cab into extra cab configuration. I was looking at going for slotted bushes but one or two that i have spoken to have indicated that the problem is not in the radius arms but the huge difference in the width of the coils front to rear. By example my brother in law's well sorted 3 inch 80 series has far better flex in the front with stock arms and bushes, with better matched front to rear flex.

Edit: I'm also hoping that the sway bar in the rear will help with cross slope roll stiffness without compromising flex too much.

OK, I'm more into Jeeps and don't know much about radius arms..

But I think you're on the right track with adding a sway bar, the currie type bar is a good option because of the adjustablity..
Seems like it is a weight distribution problem, and because the rear is light and the suspension works so well, it will allways take up all the flex first. You have to force the front to work.

A problem jeeps have with the 5 link front is the track bar (or panhard) limiting flex on the chassis side. On fix is to lower the chassis end so that the bar is as close to horizontal as possible (but you must make sure the draglink is the same length and angle or DW's could show).

Currie sell universal kits, although expensive.. probably the easiest way.
If you've got some fab skills, I cant see why you couldn't use the right length torsion bar from the arse end of a front wheel drive and make up some arms/links.

I think that coil/shock rates possibly have something to do with it also. But that stuff should be answered by someone with more brains than me....

Most utes, or cut up wagons I see offroad seem to do the same thing.. the make my arse pucker just watching them downhill...

I reckon if you could move the centre of balance further back, half the problem would be solved, any chance of puching the rear axle back?..
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

OIIIO wrote:
rockcrawler31 wrote:
OIIIO wrote:Sorry for the ignornace...

What type of 4x4, and what front suspension has it got?
No worries mate. the build thread has a lot to sift through

75x chassis, 80x diff housings, Radius arm front with 2DExtreme custom arms 300mm longer than standard 80x arms. Tri 4 link rear with parallel lowers and tri uppers. HD coils so far in the rear so going heavier will make it ride like a bullock dray.

Most of the weight is over the front with a diesel motor and cut down troopy cab into extra cab configuration. I was looking at going for slotted bushes but one or two that i have spoken to have indicated that the problem is not in the radius arms but the huge difference in the width of the coils front to rear. By example my brother in law's well sorted 3 inch 80 series has far better flex in the front with stock arms and bushes, with better matched front to rear flex.

Edit: I'm also hoping that the sway bar in the rear will help with cross slope roll stiffness without compromising flex too much.

OK, I'm more into Jeeps and don't know much about radius arms..

But I think you're on the right track with adding a sway bar, the currie type bar is a good option because of the adjustablity..
Seems like it is a weight distribution problem, and because the rear is light and the suspension works so well, it will allways take up all the flex first. You have to force the front to work.

A problem jeeps have with the 5 link front is the track bar (or panhard) limiting flex on the chassis side. On fix is to lower the chassis end so that the bar is as close to horizontal as possible (but you must make sure the draglink is the same length and angle or DW's could show).

Currie sell universal kits, although expensive.. probably the easiest way.
If you've got some fab skills, I cant see why you couldn't use the right length torsion bar from the arse end of a front wheel drive and make up some arms/links.

I think that coil/shock rates possibly have something to do with it also. But that stuff should be answered by someone with more brains than me....

Most utes, or cut up wagons I see offroad seem to do the same thing.. the make my arse pucker just watching them downhill...

I reckon if you could move the centre of balance further back, half the problem would be solved, any chance of puching the rear axle back?..
It's actually the reverse. In theory all the weight over the front end should be making the front want to work well by forcing compression. At least that's what the general consensus seems to be
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Post by zookimal »

I run the rear sway bar in my GQ all the time. Ran without it for a while but best thing I did was hook it back up.

Under certain circumstances it makes it lift a front wheel that you know would otherwise be grounded, but it feels so much better, particularly downhill.

Adding roll stiffness to the back has forced the front to work more as well, instead of doing nothing until the rear is maxed out.

I think it depends on driving style and what you prefer. More balanced or the body following the front axle everywhere.
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

zookimal wrote:I run the rear sway bar in my GQ all the time. Ran without it for a while but best thing I did was hook it back up.

Under certain circumstances it makes it lift a front wheel that you know would otherwise be grounded, but it feels so much better, particularly downhill.

Adding roll stiffness to the back has forced the front to work more as well, instead of doing nothing until the rear is maxed out.

I think it depends on driving style and what you prefer. More balanced or the body following the front axle everywhere.
That seems to be pretty much spot on for what i've heard. I've got the lockers so i'd rather sacrifice some overall flex for a well balanced front to rear flex bias.
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Post by Struth »

Man that's a question and a half.

Even with a loose RA front and a 5 link mine still follows the front noticeably, so I can imagine with your rear setup how much the front dominates the angle of the car.

I would begin by working out how to (if possible) free the front up more so it doesn't determine the body roll quite as much.

You have an A link rear?

If so, and I am thinking oitside of the square here, where the A frame attaches to the axle housing is it possible to fit a torsion or sway bar arrangement that restricts the axles ability to pivot around the A joint.

What I picture is a bar running parrallel to the axle housing and fitted solidly to the a frame while having torsion type attachments to the actual axle housing. (assuming the A point is at the axle not the chassis).

Otherwise I see no real problem with what you are proposing and it is a more proven method of stabilising the vehicle.

Cheers
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Post by zookimal »

rockcrawler31 wrote:It's actually the reverse. In theory all the weight over the front end should be making the front want to work well by forcing compression. At least that's what the general consensus seems to be
Except that the roll resistance of the radius arm front is so much higher than the 4-link rear. Yours would be a bit different being custom, but essentially the same effect as standard Patrol suspension design when comparing front to rear.
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

Struth wrote:Man that's a question and a half.

Even with a loose RA front and a 5 link mine still follows the front noticeably, so I can imagine with your rear setup how much the front dominates the angle of the car.

I would begin by working out how to (if possible) free the front up more so it doesn't determine the body roll quite as much.

You have an A link rear?


Cheers
No, two triangulated upper links.

I'm thinking the torsion bar is a better option than a traditional 80x sway bar since it can be made to travel well, but at a steadily increasing resistance rate. Whereas an 80 sway bar, after a certain point of torsional twist the front arms actually bind against the underside of the diff housing and stop down travel mechanically instead of from spring rate.
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

even if i go this way i might still put slotted bushes in the front too
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Post by TWISTY »

DGR runs (or did run) a torsion bar style one on their lux. I spoke to Greg about it when I did the last susp changes on my 40 which gave it a lot more body roll.......I've only got as far as getting some torsion bars for it, haven't looked into setting them up on it at all yet.

Heres a link to a thread on pirate about home made antirock style ones, which has some formulas there too.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761500
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Post by BEEPJEEP »

It's a petty you've gone through all that trouble to make a TRI-4LINK rear that flexs well and now you want to restrict it?? Dam shame after all that good work. Maybe its time to move those coils out bound i think then play with the rates of coils and then add a smaller swaybar only to to keep things tidy on downslops.

NICK
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

TWISTY wrote:DGR runs (or did run) a torsion bar style one on their lux. I spoke to Greg about it when I did the last susp changes on my 40 which gave it a lot more body roll.......I've only got as far as getting some torsion bars for it, haven't looked into setting them up on it at all yet.

Heres a link to a thread on pirate about home made antirock style ones, which has some formulas there too.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=761500
awesomeness mate, thanks.

did DGR say how effective it was in helping?

You still need to get back to me about that carton i was going to get fer ol mate ;)
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Post by OIIIO »

rockcrawler31 wrote:
It's actually the reverse. In theory all the weight over the front end should be making the front want to work well by forcing compression. At least that's what the general consensus seems to be
Maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong,....

But if the rear flex's really easily, and I imagine it does being 4 link, the rear is doing most of the work for the whole chassis....

I know what you're saying the cars doing and I'm trying to put into words, but.... f*ck I'm from Qld and not too bright :D

I have run my TJ with out a rear sway bar (once) and it was doing the same thing, (my TJ has d/triangulated 4 link rear) fitted a heavier than stock sway bar and longer links and all is sweet.

Also have a Currie front sway bar.

Sway bars should not limit the amount of flex, just control the rate at which the suspension flex's..
I can feel the sway bar resisting flex, but keeps the opposite front on the ground...
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

BEEPJEEP wrote:It's a petty you've gone through all that trouble to make a TRI-4LINK rear that flexs well and now you want to restrict it?? Dam shame after all that good work. Maybe its time to move those coils out bound i think then play with the rates of coils and then add a smaller swaybar only to to keep things tidy on downslops.

NICK
this would be my preferred option as it's one less thing on the truck to worry about, but i just can't see how i'm going to get the coils out more. Under the chassis, i couldn't put them on top of the axle housing because they'd end up being too short, and behind the housing would require a pretty beefy cantilevered platform - and that idea's got hairs on it.

Outside the rails i still run into the same issue of the tyres fouling on them as they compress up and over.
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Post by -Scott- »

Left field idea: softer front springs with interlinked polyairs.

Inflate them to help the soft springs carry the weight of the diesel, and interlink them to help with articulation.
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Post by Struth »

Five linking the front would assist with this issue too in purely offroad terms, but would probably detarct from onroad manners.

Have you got any pictures of the rear 4 link that show chassis width and arm positions?

Cheers
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

Struth wrote:Five linking the front would assist with this issue too in purely offroad terms, but would probably detarct from onroad manners.

Have you got any pictures of the rear 4 link that show chassis width and arm positions?

Cheers
There's a couple on here particularly in the last few pages, but until i get home to my hard drive that's all i've got readily available.

I've definately thought about 5 linking it or three with panhard, but i'd hate to go to that trouble and still have the same issue, so i'd like to sort out this first and see if it helps. And you're right, i suspect with the height of this thing it would handle like a pig on road.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic124061.php
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Post by crankycruiser »

so besides being able to adj it a little, wat does this set give u over a normal sway bar?
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Post by rockcrawler31 »

crankycruiser wrote:so besides being able to adj it a little, wat does this set give u over a normal sway bar?
Travel. See above posts. Basically a toyota factory sway bar will hit the legs on the underside of the axle tube before the torsion of the bar limits travel. It physically stops the down travel by fouling.

And

If it's made from a torsion bar, i can start with a stock bar, then easily get it uprated by ordering a HD one from any spring manufacturer. Same as if you were getting a suspension upgrade for an IFS. I don't know what a new torsion bar is worth but it's got to be cheaper than 400 odd for a new HD whiteline bar.
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Post by crankycruiser »

rockcrawler31 wrote:
crankycruiser wrote:so besides being able to adj it a little, wat does this set give u over a normal sway bar?
Travel. See above posts. Basically a toyota factory sway bar will hit the legs on the underside of the axle tube before the torsion of the bar limits travel. It physically stops the down travel by fouling.

And

If it's made from a torsion bar, i can start with a stock bar, then easily get it uprated by ordering a HD one from any spring manufacturer. Same as if you were getting a suspension upgrade for an IFS. I don't know what a new torsion bar is worth but it's got to be cheaper than 400 odd for a new HD whiteline bar.
so theres no reason why (if i can find room) i cant mount my sway bar similarly to how that blokes done it and get a similar result?
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Post by 80's_delirious »

I started a thread a while ago asking for peoples thoughts on triangulating the front radius arms. It could be an option?

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/ftopic177 ... adius+arms

ie move the chassis end of the radius arms inwards as far as possible like this \ /

make the mounting brackets on the front diff wider than standard so there is room for a 10mm thick washer between the bracket and each of the radius arm bushes so there is room for the radius arm and bush to twist without binding in the mounting brackets (see bodgey pic)

Slot the bushes to soften the flex of the bush

Image
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Post by 80's_delirious »

have you tried a softer spring in the front?

what about a progressive rate spring? Suspension Stuff (I think) has them
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Post by OIIIO »

After seeing the flex pics in your build thread, you've got no issues on flex!

I definately think some tuned sway bars would help.

With the narrow location of the rear coils, the stability would be awful without a sway bar..

Maybe even a centre limit strap on the rear diff, just to try and help the rear unloading so fast.

Still reckon you need to find a suspension guru, as I think the secrets going to be there..

Nice looking troopy man :armsup:
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Post by Struth »

Your picture below shows the castor plates limiting your front flex and therefore placing greater emphasis on the chassis to move with the front suspension,

Image

Zoltan put me onto this idea during my build and at first I thought "That's a basically sound idea that will assist front flex.

Spacers between the castor bushes and castor plates,
Image

Image

In reality though when you see the amount of extra front flex this allows before the radius arm binds with the castor plates it turns into a really useful and solid idea, especially how much the front can flex before it reacts on the chassis and starts taking the chassis/body combo with it.

It's not a small mod for a car that is already built, but one well worth considering in this instance and for this problem IMO.

Here's some pics of mine in a similar scenario, you can see how much more travel the bushes will acheive before binding on the castor plates.

Image

Image

What worries me though is that your bush has rotated the wrong way, probably because it's lifted by the RA though.

By the way, I hadn't looked at your build before, very nice job :D
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Post by Micka »

Get rid of the radius arms and do a 3 link and panhard on the front.
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