I've been reading into the options we have to lift the mighty fez but I can't find a comparison between body lift and suspension lift. I’ve read through the FAQ’s plenty of times too.
The suspension lift I wanted to do was new tough dog suspension all round with rear springs reset, wound up TB's with BJ spacers to reclaim droop. What I need to know is will I need to install both top and bottom spacers to get 2" lift with safe CV angles? or can I just wind up 2" and add just the top BJ spacer and still have safe CV angles?
Having figured this out I need to know what the advantages of doing this as opposed to a straight body lift. Better articulation? Better flex from rear? Better CV angles? Or do both of these really just allow for bigger tyres? If so what actual measured tyre size will fit under 2” lift?
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Lift options? Pro's/Con's
Moderator: Tiny
Rather than retype 20 pages of stuff.....
1/ body lift clears tyres
Body lift is easy with little technical expertiese required
A bad body lift really isn't a major problem -the tyres touch - not such a big deal, or hard to fix
Body lift and bigger tyres will make your vehicle illegal ( +50mm ) - but its easyish to undo
2/ suspension lift affects capability.
Suspension lift is hard to do correctly with significant technical experties and facilities required
A bad suspension lift makes the Feroza's limited capability off road even worse and is hard to fix
Suspension lift also makes you car illegal and depending on what you've done can be very difficult to undo.
Oh and ps... if you have spacers you wont need to touch the TB's within sensible limits. CV angles get worse with "dumb" lifts..... but overall your never going to bind them unless you have a really wild custom front suspension.
1/ body lift clears tyres
Body lift is easy with little technical expertiese required
A bad body lift really isn't a major problem -the tyres touch - not such a big deal, or hard to fix
Body lift and bigger tyres will make your vehicle illegal ( +50mm ) - but its easyish to undo
2/ suspension lift affects capability.
Suspension lift is hard to do correctly with significant technical experties and facilities required
A bad suspension lift makes the Feroza's limited capability off road even worse and is hard to fix
Suspension lift also makes you car illegal and depending on what you've done can be very difficult to undo.
Oh and ps... if you have spacers you wont need to touch the TB's within sensible limits. CV angles get worse with "dumb" lifts..... but overall your never going to bind them unless you have a really wild custom front suspension.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Thanks for the reply MM, really appreciate it!
So if done right then suspension lift should reap more benefits I'm guessing? but when you say "right" what do you mean?
I've got the facilities to make up top and bottom spacers from 25mm steel plate. So I assume there's no problem there. Is a wheel alignment needed after because that will be done when the rest of the suspension lift is done.
As for the reset springs should they be cold rolled or hot rolled. Does anyone know which is best because there seem to be many conflicting opinions. I'll have to ask fourby's what they do. Anyone had any experience with fourby's reset springs?
So if done right then suspension lift should reap more benefits I'm guessing? but when you say "right" what do you mean?
I've got the facilities to make up top and bottom spacers from 25mm steel plate. So I assume there's no problem there. Is a wheel alignment needed after because that will be done when the rest of the suspension lift is done.
As for the reset springs should they be cold rolled or hot rolled. Does anyone know which is best because there seem to be many conflicting opinions. I'll have to ask fourby's what they do. Anyone had any experience with fourby's reset springs?
mik_08 wrote:
As for the reset springs should they be cold rolled or hot rolled. Does anyone know which is best because there seem to be many conflicting opinions. I'll have to ask fourby's what they do. Anyone had any experience with fourby's reset springs?
Cold rolled are the go if you're going to reset your current springs.
Springs that have been reset seem to sag a lot quicker than those that haven't been reset so you'll get what you want out of them for a while but as time marches on they'll get worse and worse.
I looked at this option before going to new leafs and in the long term I decided it wasn't worth the money.
By "right" i'm meaning not just winding up the bars, not just a lower spacer etc etc..... but you sound like your on the right track.
If you put 25mm into top and bottom arms then "in theory" no alignment is required as the running geometry hasn't been altered.
If you couple this up with the mod to the top bump stop i've mentioned a number of times then you'll be surprised just how much more droop you can get - and all for little work.
With joint spacers and the bump stop change - that will give you 25mm lift, and around another 100mm droop - and that's without touching the bar settings.
If you've still got tyre clearance issues then add just enough body lift to resolve that.
If you put 25mm into top and bottom arms then "in theory" no alignment is required as the running geometry hasn't been altered.
If you couple this up with the mod to the top bump stop i've mentioned a number of times then you'll be surprised just how much more droop you can get - and all for little work.
With joint spacers and the bump stop change - that will give you 25mm lift, and around another 100mm droop - and that's without touching the bar settings.
If you've still got tyre clearance issues then add just enough body lift to resolve that.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
No - completely remove the bumpstop AND the metal block its attached to from the underneath of the upper control arm.....
The upper bump stop isn't a bump stop at all... its a limiter ( unfortunately... ) and only ever caries the weight of the suspension and tyre not the whole car like the compression one.
Pull the upper arm, you'll see the steel block that mounts the compression stop is held on with a couple of small tack welds - cut it off completely. The underside of the top control arms are now flat.
Now get some insertion rubber - say 2.5 mm thick and cut it to fit the shape of the extension on the chassis where the original bump stop touched. Glue it onto the chassis bit......
Thats it - the sheet works perfectly - what it lacks in thickness it makes up for in area.
I've been using this "mod" for around 2 years now with absolutely no issues, and my Feroza is far from stock. Every little bit of droop helps.
As someone here said "droop is the new black" - very true for Feroza's
P.S. if you don't like it you can tack weld the blocks and stops back on.
The upper bump stop isn't a bump stop at all... its a limiter ( unfortunately... ) and only ever caries the weight of the suspension and tyre not the whole car like the compression one.
Pull the upper arm, you'll see the steel block that mounts the compression stop is held on with a couple of small tack welds - cut it off completely. The underside of the top control arms are now flat.
Now get some insertion rubber - say 2.5 mm thick and cut it to fit the shape of the extension on the chassis where the original bump stop touched. Glue it onto the chassis bit......
Thats it - the sheet works perfectly - what it lacks in thickness it makes up for in area.
I've been using this "mod" for around 2 years now with absolutely no issues, and my Feroza is far from stock. Every little bit of droop helps.
As someone here said "droop is the new black" - very true for Feroza's
P.S. if you don't like it you can tack weld the blocks and stops back on.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Mechanically yes - BUT if you actually need to remove the top "bumpstop" because you've wound the bars up that much you would have NO DROOP AT ALL - ZERO.
THe top "bumpstop" mod is to add travel ( droop ) - what your suggesting will remove it all - this would make the vehicle BLOODY DANGEROUS to drive under any circumstances.
If you lived long enough to get it offroad it would be completely useless and the CV's won't like running at that angle continually....... etc etc
I'm usually not that paranoid about mods.... but IMHO you shouldn't do what I think your suggesting under any circumstances, if you do - get your will updated
I hope we've just misunderstood each other.......
THe top "bumpstop" mod is to add travel ( droop ) - what your suggesting will remove it all - this would make the vehicle BLOODY DANGEROUS to drive under any circumstances.
If you lived long enough to get it offroad it would be completely useless and the CV's won't like running at that angle continually....... etc etc
I'm usually not that paranoid about mods.... but IMHO you shouldn't do what I think your suggesting under any circumstances, if you do - get your will updated
I hope we've just misunderstood each other.......
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Well that sounds like you've got virtually no droop ( when you jack the chassis up the wheel hardly drops.... ). Apart from my concerns about its on road safety - its going to be ABSOLUTELY USELESS off road
As a general rule of thumb - on road ride comes from bump travel, off road capability largely from droop travel, but you do need some of each for the suspension to work.
I'm also unsure why you would wind it up so much, after all the rear diff is still the same distance to the ground. What are you trying to achieve ?
So..... if i've got the picture correct, the first time you take it on a corrugated road your going to have an interesting time.
As a general rule of thumb - on road ride comes from bump travel, off road capability largely from droop travel, but you do need some of each for the suspension to work.
I'm also unsure why you would wind it up so much, after all the rear diff is still the same distance to the ground. What are you trying to achieve ?
So..... if i've got the picture correct, the first time you take it on a corrugated road your going to have an interesting time.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Just a word of warning too. Was out on a trip a couple of months back and one of the blokes that came out had a neat Hilux IFS front with "2" lift" (ie. torsion bars wound to the max). 2nd day we took on a hill climb and he came bouncing up the hill and suddenly got traction and Hmm! CV blown! wheels were pointed straight ahead so I'm sure it was the product of winding up the Tb's to the max.
That's why I'm using spacers instead of simply winding up the torsion bars.
Btw when they're in I'm going to get a full wheel alignment done at the 4by shop down the road. Could they refuse to do it if they notice that I've got the spacers in?
That's why I'm using spacers instead of simply winding up the torsion bars.
Btw when they're in I'm going to get a full wheel alignment done at the 4by shop down the road. Could they refuse to do it if they notice that I've got the spacers in?
Mmm of course lol. For some reason I over looked the fact that the CV's still stay in the same position 
but with the extra droop hopefully I can keep the wheels on the ground a bit more and not have to bounce over the ruts as much 
How much are Cv's going for these day anyways? for an f300 that is?[/u]
but with the extra droop hopefully I can keep the wheels on the ground a bit more and not have to bounce over the ruts as much How much are Cv's going for these day anyways? for an f300 that is?[/u]
CV's are more a mater of inconvience - bust one on on a track and it ruins your whole day
I carry spares of the cups and internals ( no axles ) but have never needed them.
I think that the standard Feroza gearing encourages ( requires actually... ) you to drive hard at things which encourages the bounce and therefore breakages.
I'm geared and auto - which means i've bags more torque but as i can crawl up things breakages just don't seem to happen to the shafts/cv's
Having said that i've torn the mounting lugs of the front dift housing when crawling up stuff which does get quite noisy.
I carry spares of the cups and internals ( no axles ) but have never needed them.
I think that the standard Feroza gearing encourages ( requires actually... ) you to drive hard at things which encourages the bounce and therefore breakages.
I'm geared and auto - which means i've bags more torque but as i can crawl up things breakages just don't seem to happen to the shafts/cv's
Having said that i've torn the mounting lugs of the front dift housing when crawling up stuff which does get quite noisy.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
You can fit a 3cm spacer but you will need to make 4 holes so you can use longer bolts.
The up spacer its about 4cm
The bottom spacer can only be around 3.5cm
but you must take care also to drop down the front diff or your cv axles will be warn. From my point of view its easier and safer to cut out any objects that will touch your bigger tires.
The up spacer its about 4cm
The bottom spacer can only be around 3.5cm
but you must take care also to drop down the front diff or your cv axles will be warn. From my point of view its easier and safer to cut out any objects that will touch your bigger tires.
www.ferozaclub.gr
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
Why would the CV's wear to any real degree - the front hubs are out 99% of the time so they aren't rotating. Plunge also isn't an issue on the road.
Lowering the diff is the LAST THING you want as an outcome... its already too low - it needs to be raised if anything to stop it dragging on rocks etc - that does SERIOUS damage to the diff.
There's lots of angle available in the CV's so that's not an issue. Ive got around double standard travel on standard CV's and have measured the angles very carefully.
The load is usually very low on droop ( the weights off the suspension ) so breakage due to high load with high angles isn't a major concern ( except for the "bouncies" - which will break anything )
And...... with the lousy transfer ratio its not as if you have bags of torque to handle.... having to "charge" obstacles which is often the only option for Feroza's makes the hanging front diff much more of an issue IMO.
Lowering the diff is the LAST THING you want as an outcome... its already too low - it needs to be raised if anything to stop it dragging on rocks etc - that does SERIOUS damage to the diff.
There's lots of angle available in the CV's so that's not an issue. Ive got around double standard travel on standard CV's and have measured the angles very carefully.
The load is usually very low on droop ( the weights off the suspension ) so breakage due to high load with high angles isn't a major concern ( except for the "bouncies" - which will break anything )
And...... with the lousy transfer ratio its not as if you have bags of torque to handle.... having to "charge" obstacles which is often the only option for Feroza's makes the hanging front diff much more of an issue IMO.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Ok thanks guys and thanks ferozamaniac for the pics. They're just what I needed to put my mind at ease So how much more droop has 40mm spacers given you? I was thinking of a 25mm spacer but that's starting to sound a little small. Thoughts anyone?
Also just read on WARF's that the bottom Spacer would add up travel. Is that right?
Dano mentioned it here:
http://www.warfs.org/forum?func=view&id ... 4&start=18
If so then is there a chance of scrubbing when the wheel is at full bump?
So how much more droop has 40mm spacers given you? I was thinking of a 25mm spacer but that's starting to sound a little small. Thoughts anyone?Also just read on WARF's that the bottom Spacer would add up travel. Is that right?
Dano mentioned it here:
http://www.warfs.org/forum?func=view&id ... 4&start=18
If so then is there a chance of scrubbing when the wheel is at full bump?
Yes the bottom spacer will give you more travel, the pictures i have posted its a modification that a friend has done but not yet bolted and tested. Just make the big spacers that i have posted and if you have problems you take them out and make them smaller (will save you up money and time).
www.ferozaclub.gr
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
A question for MM, does the installation of balljoint spacers require engineering? i.e. What is the legality of them?
I'm starting to look at this option as I have to replace some balljoints soon (BTW, available from Burson Auto Parts for around $70 each, as are idler arm bushes for around $16 a set - Tell them Fulcrum is the supplier.)
I'm starting to look at this option as I have to replace some balljoints soon (BTW, available from Burson Auto Parts for around $70 each, as are idler arm bushes for around $16 a set - Tell them Fulcrum is the supplier.)
bru21 wrote:What happens in goat, stays in goat!
Yes AJ they should be engineered to be legal..... and I'd be offering 75/25 odds against them getting the tick of approval.
Not that theres any real issue ( assuming they are done properly ) but suspension mods scare engineers - and the price of engineers scares me
Not that theres any real issue ( assuming they are done properly ) but suspension mods scare engineers - and the price of engineers scares me
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
I apologize if this doesnt belong here but the subject seemed to fit.
Quick query for those who have done the suspension lift, what is the average price expected for a 40mm-45mm suspension lift to be carried out proffesionally?
I might add I have no hope of even attempting this myselfas i dont have a clue of what im doing. I got a quote today from a shop in Slacks creek, brisbane for $2150 including EFS gear installed. I asked about bringing my own equipment and there happy to do it providing they know the brand and its good/decent gear that wont bite them in the backside. I dont own a feroza yet but am seriously looking at the moment as my 1st 4x4. correct me if im wrong but from what i understand a replacement of standard suspension and a lift is a priority for any serios 4being in these lil beasts. I got quoted on a '96 model but not sure if it makes a big difference.
Your thoughts would be appeciated
Cheers!
Dannyboi
Quick query for those who have done the suspension lift, what is the average price expected for a 40mm-45mm suspension lift to be carried out proffesionally?
I might add I have no hope of even attempting this myselfas i dont have a clue of what im doing. I got a quote today from a shop in Slacks creek, brisbane for $2150 including EFS gear installed. I asked about bringing my own equipment and there happy to do it providing they know the brand and its good/decent gear that wont bite them in the backside. I dont own a feroza yet but am seriously looking at the moment as my 1st 4x4. correct me if im wrong but from what i understand a replacement of standard suspension and a lift is a priority for any serios 4being in these lil beasts. I got quoted on a '96 model but not sure if it makes a big difference.
Your thoughts would be appeciated
Cheers!
Dannyboi
Guess who's the friend!!ferozamaniac wrote:.... the pictures i have posted its a modification that a friend has done but not yet bolted and tested.....
It should be all bolted up and ready to get tested about the end of this month as I am still waiting to get the rear leafs ready.....
You shall have all pictures when its done!
I hope by then I shall be able to post pictures!
I'd say in the front suspension about +7 cm in front travel, about 3-4cm more clearance and in the rear about +8lift and a lot of travel with the terraflex shackles installed....
We will see....
Ahh hello friend!
Would be great to see photos and I'd really like to know what the actual size of the tyres that you can fit under the lift are. I'm aiming to do pretty much the same mod as you, minus the terra shackles.
Keep us posted on it!
As for the EFS gear dannyboi I'm not sure on prices (if it includes torsion bars it could well be about right) but I can't justify spending that much on mine as I only paid 3k for it in the first place! I did however get a quote from fourby's at moorooka for around $1600 for toughdog shocks on all corners with reset rear springs and a bit of winding the TB's up. labour and full alignment included. But I'm planning to do it myself with a kit from suspension stuff for $890 (and a couple of cartons )and making up BJ spacers for the front myself.
Best bet would be to get to know the fez in it's stock form before spending $$$ on it... I think you'll be plesantly suprised!
Would be great to see photos and I'd really like to know what the actual size of the tyres that you can fit under the lift are. I'm aiming to do pretty much the same mod as you, minus the terra shackles.
Keep us posted on it!
As for the EFS gear dannyboi I'm not sure on prices (if it includes torsion bars it could well be about right) but I can't justify spending that much on mine as I only paid 3k for it in the first place! I did however get a quote from fourby's at moorooka for around $1600 for toughdog shocks on all corners with reset rear springs and a bit of winding the TB's up. labour and full alignment included. But I'm planning to do it myself with a kit from suspension stuff for $890 (and a couple of cartons
)and making up BJ spacers for the front myself. Best bet would be to get to know the fez in it's stock form before spending $$$ on it... I think you'll be plesantly suprised!
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