Modifying The Toyota landcruiser Bundera 22R-C My view

[mkdd]

Hello Everyone,

I always here about questions regarding the 22r and how gutless the motor is, and directions on what to do with it in regards to modifications etc.

The usual answer is to use it as a boat anchor, or somewhere thereabouts and it is not worth modifying it, and it is best to do a engine conversion etc.

Hopefully i can give a view to help people with the same question should i should i not modify a 22r

I am a Bmw specialist and i am one of the pioneers of turbo cars in Australia and was building and driving turbo cars when nobody even knew what they were here is my experienced view as i purchased a Landcruiser Bundera with the petrol 22R-C for daily transport and a few fishing trips each year.

I purchased the little truck and promised my self that i will not touch it modify it in anyway other than the usual extractors cat exhaust etc.

At first these were my initial thoughts this Toyota landcruiser is realy nice quailty truck.

Drives like a road car including roadcar like handling not bad on fuel economy would be a lot better fuel injected.

The engine could do with a lot more power as coming from cars with an average power of between 300-to over 500 hp i said to myself what am i doing in this thing i cant even get out of peoples way.

Well i can say now that i am more experienced driving it, the 22r is adequete but certainly not brisk as it should be and mostly not fun.

An efi setup would be worth about 7kw on it's own but with very notible fuel savings.

Extractors few kw at best without headwork & cam etc

Extractors, Highflow Cat, and a little bigger less restrictive exhaust system system.cold air intake with k&N or similar quality filter 10-12kw or there abouts.

The problem is nobody knows how to modify the original asin carb or more to the point nobody wants to learn including myself.

So the first thing you do you throw the Aisin carb out to gain a few hp in return you do gain hp but in doing so you lose some fuel economy and legality if you are that way inclined (I tend to be more conservative when it come to legality etc).

Really to gain worthwhile power most of you will already know but for the newbies you must rebuild the engine with headwork and a cam and with all of the above mods i metioned you could double your engine power to about 200hp in na form depending on the amount of headwork cam selected quality of the exhaust system etc.

Not a lot of peopled put in the effort to build an na motor as it cost a lot of money for labour and to build the engine.

Engine conversions are not cheap
Engine purchace $2000-3500 (Complete not bits & peices)
Enginneers Certificate $600-800
Adapters for this and that $500-1000
Lots of labour bandaids beer or more money lots of it for mechanics auto electricians

The advantages of an engine conversion are you gain a lot of power for the money spent $5000-6000.
Especially if you chose to convert a turbo motor .

I could go on forever but it's horses for courses as they put it

For someone who thinks that there car is adequete doubling the hp for half the cost of a engine conversion is the way to go.

Hp cost a lot of money there is a lot of non glamour parts to be purchased like injectors clutches fuel pumps etc that can run into the $1000 of dollars.

I might just design and Engineer a Turbo Kit for the 22r and prove that it is a stout motor and can match the majority of the engine conversions that are around that might change peoples mind regarding the 22r.

I hope i have given some insight in regard to the modification to the 22r engineering a car is a dificult subject a art form really as i believe anybody can wack things and weld things together but can the completed modifications have the reliability that you started with.

Thanks
Murat

[pozman]

i had exhaust and extractors on mine, then put a 32/36dgv/dgav Weber on it
(off early cortina)

went alright with the Weber, still wasn't great, cant expect too much from a small engine, but its easy stuff to do, and cheap

i have both the extractors and the adapter for the Weber if interested?

[mkdd]

pozman,

Its not a small engine 2.4 littres

The problem is it has to haul a lot of weight 1600kg in the case of the swb landcruiser.

When you load it up, throw in some larger wheels tyres etc the engine becomes gutless.

If people do some research the 22r is highly regarded in celicas and other toyotas and why are they popular because they say it is a huge engine.

I think these engines should all have been turbocharged from the factory
Toyota most likely thought we have increased the size of the engine over the 2L turbo deisel variants and it will be fine, well people buy them and use them loaded up with big tyres then the things become slugs.

But it is not the engine fault.

I just purchased some fuel injection parts and i might fuel inject before i fabricate a turbo setup so i don't need those parts but thanks for the offer anyway.

[virtha21]

i just had a 3rz swaped in by a mate but, before that was happy with the 22r, had extractors, exhaust and 32/36 weber, went alright and was able to thrash the guts out of it every trip without a problem. I also thought about pulling it down and doing some work on it but then i weighed up the costs and wanted fuel injection also and decided on the 3rz. And if i want more power out of this engine i can always turbo it, and end up with more power for less money in the end. But hey go for it mate, good to see different stuff.

[skootin]

LCEngineering in the USA has already done the research and developement on the 22R mate check it out. http://www.lceperformance.com/
http://www.toyotacatalog.net/M1WebGear/
They got a factory turbo with injection in the hilux in the US so they are fairly popular over there stroker cranks and double row timing chains available for serious performance.

I had a 22R put a cam in it and ported the head exrtactors and 2 1/2 exhaust with a straight thru muffler and a rebuilt bottom end it would rev to 6500 and was pretty good with a std early model carby without all the emissions stuff on it.

[mkdd]

I have checked all the available imformation around the world altready

What i was trying to get at was to fabricate and engineer something quality, legal and reliable.

The only headaches i have is keeping it legal

If legality is not a problem than it is easy

For instance extractors are illegal if they don't have the egr pipes connected etc

Thats why really when some one asks me to turbo there car legaly i steer them towards an engine conversion yes it's expensive but when you done you have a legal car.

If i were to say install a weber jet it for a quality turbo setup take it to an engineer what chance do you think i would have of passing the epa guidelines (I have removed the epa complaint carb and egr emmission system).

This is my drawback the problem of legality you have to work around what you got and who in their right mind wants to figure out the aisin carb for a turbo application.

I think in the end no one really checks under the bonnet of your 4x4 i think i am anal about these things as i tend think of the past with my drag car days in the hey day of Dandenong drags and think of it as a buisiness not just knocking one up for my self.

The problem is i don't think things are going to stay the same vic may adopt yearly inspections etc

Anyway lce engineering stuff is nice but the shipping kills you and them you have taxes gst when it all arrives.
There is ways around it like buy things individually etc.

But why i posted this info in the first place is we need someone to do what lce engineering has done in the states here and go one further by fabricating and engineering a legal setup for the 22r.

I don't have the time at the moment anyway but in the future i will do it as the 22r will feel great with turbo.

Now if only the standard g52 gearbox was stronger

[pozman]

yeah it is a very big motor in a celica for sure, just not in a bundy, there is a turbo engine available, 22r-et, was only available over seas, but you should be able to do something about engineering that, even if you get the turbo and efi gear off one of them, there fairly low comp as they are so should hold up alright

im running a 7m-gte now, absolutely amazing, but the 22r with the weber and that held up ok, was just sick of holding it flat to try and hold a 100kph, around town it was fine tho, 7m is better on fuel, and im getting places ALOT faster

[mkdd]

Yeh i know the old school toyota big 6 very well

As i have been driving turbo sixes all my life here is some of the turbo sixes i have had.


Datsun 260z 2 door coupe L28 Turbo
Chrysler CL SE 770 265 Turbo
Nissan R31 Skyline Sillouette Rb30 Turbo

Bmw M528i 3.5L turbo in the design stage

other turbos

Peugeot 205 gti 1.9L turbo 895kg car

Other cars

4 x Escort mk1
Toyota Celica 18r engine
Ford fairmont gxl drag car the only engine i did not build it was built by shane cable who i was told built engines for chev offroad and marine engine C.O.M.E 351 cleveland 2v heads 475hp with a 75hp stage 1 nitrous system

Mate built a rocket capri 4.1 crossflow turbo 10.9 over the quarter mile he ran motorbikes off the lights in the old days.

Ford 4.1 made great power but would not hold up in the durability department against the other sixes.

I was having a Hard time Getting the Money i want for My skyline i was seriously considering Converting the rb30 into the bundy.


That before i decided to sell the custom turbo setup and sell the car in na form.

yes you would get better fuel economy with the 7mgte as you dont have to thrash it around like the 22r but it would be a different story if you injected and turboed the 22r.

Thats a nice conversion though as everyone goes for the more newer and more reliable 1jz 2jz setups the 7mgte and the smaller 1ggte are becoming a bargain.

I must say 7mgtes can be reliable with the right headgasket and headbolt torqueing and as long as you are not after silly numbers it would be a great conversion even without a turbo i wrecken.

here is a few pics of my Bundera and the r31 skyline custom turbo that i just sold.

[Turboshop]

I spent alot of time and about a $1000 fuel injecting my 22r Bundera. It went much better but Never totally right. The setup I used was off a corana and with 33's it had a massive flat spot and used to ping bad up hills, yet it was very rich in other areas of the rev range and idle.

Then the old 22r started knocking, I replaced big ends, then it cracked a ring and developed a noisy gudgen. Probably because it was out of tune but the carona did not have enough adjustment to cope with conditions of being in a heavier car with big wheels.

Then I put a 3rz in best thing i ever did, twice the power half the fuel and no headache... I did it all myself and all up the 3rz cost me under $2000 including the motor, I fabricated a set of 4into1 extractors and a mandrel bent 2.5inch exhaust. I couldn't be happier with the performance.

IMHO don't spend a dollar on the 22r, it may be a good motor but Toyota kept developing it and it's modern variant 3rz is a great motor.

[pozman]

that's a clean bundy mate, look nice, mine was like that when i got it, paints fallen out on me tho, make sure you keep that paint in good nick, it goes like ass so quick

yeah i rebuilt the whole thing myself, new rings, bearings, gaskets and a stud kit (keep that head gasket where its meant to be)

i originally only wanted a 7mge, but when i bought the supra for the engine it turned out to be a 7mgte with the turbo removed, not sure if it was a blessing or not, its good now, but all the extra work and money was a hassle (ie gearbox)

3rz was the next one on my list, make nearly as much power and torque as the 7mge

an off tap 22r would be cool, just getting it reliable and economical is the key

[phat-customs]

This question is a little bit O/T but Murat, I just injected my Pajero (2.6 Astron using EFI from 89 magna -same motor but fwd-)

U say here that:

An efi setup would be worth about 7kw on it's own but with very notible fuel savings.

I am getting much better performance and power out of the EFI'd 2.6 but woeful economy, almost worse than I was returning with the carby (14l - 14.6l/100k) am I expecting too much to get down the 10's or 12's per 100??? The pajero is much the same shape and size as the bundy and isnt very "aerodynamic" and rather heavy (1600kgs) or is there something esle I can do to the engine to extract a bit better fuel economy???

Feel free to PM me to save clogging up this thread.

Cheers, Robert.

[mkdd]

I alraedy have the most of the fuel injection setup & also a turbo 22ret computer.

There was 2 types of fuel injection used on the 22re
They are both based on the German bosch fuel injection systems
One was a analog-like the l jetronic non lambda (No oxygen sensor)
the other a digital-much like the motronic engine management systems from bosch.

For instance i have a 22ret computer that is motronic like but the fuel injection setup i have is from a analog setup etc.

I don't know why you had the problems you had with your fuel injection setup as it could be just a simple air leak causing the flat spot it takes skill in setting up a fuel injection setup much like a carb you have to have patience in setting up fuel pressure checking for any air leaks etc.


The 3rz looks like a great engine and for $2000 it looks like a great conversion what gearbox do you use with the 3rz.

It is amazing all the fe engines are basically the same design just in different shapes and sizes.

My father had an import 3vzfe i rebuilt it twice head gasket first time and because of the shock the alloy casting goes through it eventually cracks the head not long after.

I disliked the cooling system on the camry (Hydraulic operated fan that was controlled ny a computer)What was toyota thinking.

But the 3vzfe was a gem of a engine silky smooth and nice power i bought a import so it was 140kw a little more than the local camry.

If you have worked on one fe engine the heads are all the same design

Robert,

Do you own a swb or lwb
Swb bundera weighs in at 1580kg to be exact
If you have no air leaks and have the right fuel pressure there is nothing else you can do for fuel economy other than reduce weight throw on some road type tyres reduce drag etc.
If it is going great i doubt you a fuel injection problem and your ordinary fuel economy is most like the way you a driving the pajero.

I don't think you will ever get 10L to the hundred from an astron 2.6 fuel injected or not in a 4x4 13-14L sounds about right.

But there is so many variables it is hard to say

Is the fuel figures you are talking about for mixed city hwy driving unloaded then your figures sound about right.

Do you have stock size wheels tyres as that is big factor

To be honest 2.6 was never an economical motor as i remember these motors very well with all the cracked blocks on the series one astrons but Mitsubishi slowly improved them in the later series.

[pozman]

can you get this 22r-te computer to work on the injection gear you have?

if you don't go turbo, apparently the 20r head can be put on the pre 1985 22r block, it has smaller combustion chambers, bring the comp up a bit

[phat-customs]

Do you own a swb or lwb

Its SWB. I dont have the figures infront of me, but i think its around the same weight, perhaps even a little heavier. I assume everything is a-ok, im using the donor cars Fuel pump and reg etc so fuel press should be as it was in the magna. It has a 35mm body lift and a set of 31" muddies that stick outside the guards a little, so this would affect its CoD I assume? it had these mods previous to being efi, and I figured that with the EFI it would be slightly more efficient. I did notice that @ 100Kph in the magna the engine was doing around the 2200 - 2500rpm in top gear, in the paj this is more around the 3000rpm mark, how much affect will these extra revs have on fuel consumption?

I guess the most perplexing thing is that I can return the same fuel economy in pure HWY driving that I can with a combination of 4WD + city + HWY driving??? Explain???

[pozman]

i dont get much better on the hwy in my bundy than around town and that, the areo-dynamics are a big part there, and tyres, muddies are worse again, lift will afect it also

it takes alot of effort to push them though the air at 100-110, i get alot better economy at 80-90

[mkdd]

Robert,

I had a look at the specs of the pajero

NC,ND 86 pajero kerb weight is 1470kg
NC, ND pajero sport version kerb weight 1503kg
Obviously with bigger wheels etc it will weigh more

pozman is on the money Aerodynamics plays a major role and also the rolling resistince of the big wheels would have a huge effect.

You would be suprised how much driving habits have on fuel economy just keeping the revs down a bit save heaps of petrol in may case.

Posman 22rtec computer will work with additional wiring and the correct denso 42 pin connector as i have only purchased a older analog harness but most other parts are the same.

I might go megasuirt in the end anyway.


I don't really want to go na route as these are heavy cars and really need the big torque from a turbo.

[pozman]

i think its time to get that turbo gear on and get it engineered then.

once its engineered do the mega squirt, there actually pretty good, played with one before, easy to work with and good increments on tuning then comes roller bearing turbo and cooler something like a gt2860rs would go quite nice id imagine

[mkdd]

Pozman the whole problem is passing engineering

I can install the whole fuel injection setup from a fuel inject 22re or rtec from a toyota that uses that engine.

But you can't pass an engineering approval without a full shed test that could cost upwards of $6000 .

Once a programmable engine computer is installed there is no way of approval on the cheap you have to do a full shed test as they call it like the car companys do to gain approval.

anyway i don't want to bore anyone about legality thats why i have a rtec computer as a backup if i decide to go legal.

I have a habit of doing one car at a time and i have to remember why i purchased the bundy in the first place as it is my daily driver whlile i work on bmw's.

There is a good chance i might convert a 1ggte that is most likely the easyiest conversion to do and most likely one of the cheapest as well

When i turbo it i will keep everyone updated with some pics etc

[pozman]

you should be right to do it with std management, just be the same as engine conversion, id imagine.

what state are you in?

there a vid on youtube of a 1ggte powered bundy, seams to go alright, straight out the dump sounds ace. there was also i guy on hear that did a 1ggze said it went ok too

the only problem with 1g's is there quite hard to get bits for now, like new spares and gaskets and thing apparently, had a mate building one had all sorts of dramas

but still great little engine

something i never really considered when i did mine, but would be very high on the list if i were to do it again would be a 2jz, non turbo vvti, would be good strong reliable package

[droopypete]

In your younger years were you involved with any youth political parties?
Peter.

[mkdd]

Hello Peter,

No mate not in the real world anyway
When i was a youngster living in Europe i used to have bad dreams about Hitlers left wing political party that i use to see on the box thats about as close as i got to any political party LOL.

But just reading the above i know what you mean just do it, but i think i mentioned i am starting to do these setups for a living and the state of Victoria is really strict and it is not going to get better in the coming years.

What i need to is move house to the sunshine state QLD as they give you a mod plate for just about anything lol

Anyway thats another story

[bj on roids]

Toyota turboed it from factory mate.

You arent inventing anything new!

[droopypete]

Hello Peter,

No mate not in the real world anyway
When i was a youngster living in Europe i used to have bad dreams about Hitlers left wing political party that i use to see on the box thats about as close as i got to any political party LOL.

But just reading the above i know what you mean just do it, but i think i mentioned i am starting to do these setups for a living and the state of Victoria is really strict and it is not going to get better in the coming years.

What i need to is move house to the sunshine state QLD as they give you a mod plate for just about anything lol

Anyway thats another story

There was a guy in the street drag scene around Dandenong in the early/mid 70's and I think he was in the young libs, he had put a turbo on his datsun and it was a rocket (by the days standards) he was the turbo guru, a real trail blazer, no one had any idea you could get a datsun to go so fast, I thought it may have been you when I read this,
" i am one of the pioneers of turbo cars in Australia and was building and driving turbo cars when nobody even knew what they were"
I guess not.
Good luck with the build.
Peter.

[bj on roids]

Pioneers of turbo and supercharged vehicles were doing it in the 1920s and 30s. Even factory fitted applications as much as 20 and 30 years ago spring to mind fairly readily, on everyday cars.

[mkdd]

Well i will keep this short

I never said i invented the turbo or that i was the first person to turbo a car but i will bet you new nothing about turbocharging 25 years ago most likely you were not even born.

When certain people in the hey day of dandy drags were running 351 clevelands and the like that were built in the middle end of 5 figures we were racing against them with turbo setups.

Now any person that has a 10-15000 engine and asks me what the f is in that thing and we told them extractors and a big aircleaner and they did not really know enough to argue.

There was a couple of turbo vehicles that come on the seen i remember a couple of vl turbos an lj turbo etc.
But the above vehicles were ther at a later date much after we cleaned up most of the cars.

Now everybody is a pro they slap a turbo kit with an arc welder well i will leave it at that.

To be honest i don't know why i even post on forums to many keyboard warriors i have run into through the years.

You know anybody can turbo a car with a little research and a little practice and patience but like everything in this world there is amateurs and there is the pro's.

show me a legal powerfull 22r turbo bundera setup that has been engineered in the state of Victoria that will pass a epa or police inspection.

anyway most likely i am wasting my time here as i feel like i am always trying to prove myself to someone i do not know well i have the runs on the board 25 years ago it was myself and a freind against all sorts of cars in cars we built built them ourselves when there was no internet to learn from.

You know what i can kick a soccer ball pretty good i wonder if i should put myself up against ronaldo.

I just thought it would be interesting to talk about modifying a 22r that is legal in the end but now i know i should not have bothered to do so as most people don't give 2 f's about legality they will in the coming years if they implament yearly inspections a la NSW etc

[bj on roids]

You are getting too passionate about the subject mkdd. Relax, tell us in just a few sentences what you are trying to achieve.

If Toyota already offered the exact system you are talking about, as a factory option, is it not a simpler job to just copy, the existing design rather than reinvent the wheel?

Sure you can copy it and upgrade/improve it to suit your needs...

If you are truly a pioneer, perhaps try something new or different, that is totally out of left field.

[mkdd]

bj on roids,

If you read my first post you will know i am not designing a setup for the toyota it is my daily driver purchased to go fishing with to the south coast of NSW and to leave it stock.

I will most likely end up selling it anyway as i have not been fishing once yet due to commitment and time.

I work on european cars namely bmw & peugeots in the past so i ahve nothing to do with inventing anthing for the Toyota 22r

When i try to state pioneer of turbos in Australia we were the first people who did not run a professional shop to fabricate turbo car setups in another words around that time you had a v8 or you lost untill we came along and changed things.

back then there was no internet and all i can say is you could count the turbo cars in one hand and we were driving 2 of them all the other cars were fabricated by pro's

Terry Wilson of AVO had just started out Wayne manken of Manken Autotune had been around for a while Mark johnstone of JPC was working from home and later we caught up with him and his car at the drags.

Please read the post i never said jack about inventing anything for the 22r i am just trying to state it would be cool to design a engineered setup with fabricated manifold and a decent turbo.

Yes Toyota already has done it but what good is it for anyone in OZ
Yes you can buy the parts from the states 2 things wrong with that first is you get raped for the shipping second what you will most likely get is junk old worn out turbo that is to small most likely a cracked exhaust manifold so are you understanding where i am coming from.

If you have endless money to burn you can buy new manifolds from the states along with a new turbo etc

But i have not seen one turbo setup on a Bundera 22r
I would love to see a engineered turbo setup on a 22r in VIctoria so i don't think i was wasting my time thinking about a legal setup.

Maybe it was wrong for me to post this subject here as i think more like a shop trying to produce a legal affordable turbo setup while most of you in here just think about getting it done and cant relate to where i am coming from but that is ok i get the drift people would rather toss the 22r and do an engine conversion and i understand them perfectly with the options they have in Australia that is the way to go.

You have a newer engine that is most likely better smoother and legal emmisions wise in the end and a lot cheaper than having some pro fabricate a turbo setup etc

I was bored and was just trying to state would it not be nice to have a option to turbo a 22r legally without burning a big hole in your wallet to see what peoples reactions were but nobody really could understand what i was on about maybe it was my fault not relaying what i was thinking about.

Yes i am driven and have plenty of passion and i should not get ahead of myself as i have a mistake of thinking everyone around me is just as driven and passionate regarding even the small details etc

Anyway i will not post again regarding any thoughts but if i do decide to design a legal setup for the 22r (which is not likely) i will post some pics for you all to see.

You are more likely to see my 4x4 up for sale as i am thinking of buying a small car to get around instead of lugging a 4x4 around dreaming i can hook up with friends to go fishing.

Anyway all of you take it easy and enjoy your rides

[bad_religion_au]

If i were to say install a weber jet it for a quality turbo setup take it to an engineer what chance do you think i would have of passing the epa guidelines (I have removed the epa complaint carb and egr emmission system).

This is my drawback the problem of legality you have to work around what you got and who in their right mind wants to figure out the aisin carb for a turbo application.

3 letters to counter EPA...

LPG

why is it that hard?

[mkdd]

bad_religion_au

This is the sort of posts i wanted to talk about

I really looked into it it is nearly a win on all counts

Rules have changed it has to be straight lpg no duel fuel setups are legal anymore in Victoria unless you leave all emmission related parts intact

Another words if i were to remove the exhaust manifold with the egr pipes in a dual fuel setup it would not pass.

Straight lpg is the only way you can pass in Vic anyway

I would be happy with duel fuel don't really want to be stuck with gas only

F====== pen pushers they are most likely implemeting something new as we speak

It would have to be scuba tanks if i decided to go that way as i can barely fit anything without folding the seats down.

[bj on roids]

Why not swing a turbo off the existing manifold, saves some costs there. (I know, flow, heat problems, but hey... its a cheap start) Love to see pics if you go ahead with it. But I think you will struggle to recoup the costs if you do build a custom cast manifold, if you built one out of steam pipe bends though it wouldnt be too bad, cost wise.

Heaps of lads on www.lextreme.com building there own turbo manifolds, lots of custom stuff, might give you some good ideas.

Otherwise good luck with the vehicle.