TUFF TRUCK IS SAVED!!!!!

[Matt N]

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

Banning wire, and only allowing synthetic rope would be a good start.

[Strange Rover]

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

Banning wire, and only allowing synthetic rope would be a good start.

Thats a start but still not safe enough IMO. You still got a rope with 10000 LB on it with heavy stuff tied to each end. And the rope breaks so much more often and if its wet it still travels a long way. The crowd would still need to be back more than the length of the cable IMO.

Sam

[grimbo]

So if you allow competitive winching how will you ensure that nobody gets hurt when a cable breaks????

Sam

Banning wire, and only allowing synthetic rope would be a good start.

Thats a start but still not safe enough IMO. You still got a rope with 10000 LB on it with heavy stuff tied to each end. And the rope breaks so much more often and if its wet it still travels a long way. The crowd would still need to be back more than the length of the cable IMO.

Sam

How do you propose vehicles are recovered?

Because competitive and recovery winching still pose the same problems. the only way to make it safe for spectators is to have them back beyond harm. So there needs to be a greater clear area around the events with adequate viewing for x amount of people. Also adequate winch points are needed to shorten winch cable lengths. Luckily we don't have huge long hills to pull cars up.

[Strange Rover]

Have I seen a winch cable break? Only about 400 times. Its recoils in a straight line, one towards the car and one towards the attachment point, if it has a cable dampner on it (must have in comps) then it shortens the amount it recoils by about half if not more.

This explains to me why you dont think that winching is a dangerous operation.

BELIEVE ME - winch cables dont always break and recoil in a straight lines. They can whip out to the side and cut sombodys head off. Ive seen them whip out to the side the full length of the cable. Which is why common winch safety practice is for everybody to be back further than the length of the cable (and im sure ist 2x the length). Not even standing to the side is good enough - you have to get way back.

Winching is by far the most dangerous thing that we do in general 4wding and to do it under competition pressure with a crowd only metres from the loaded cable is just plain crazy.

Guts - when you see a loaded cable break and shoot out to the side at a million miles an hour it will make you think twice about winch safety.

Go to one of Dave Metcalfs winch challenge competitions and have a look at the extent to which they go to to ensure safety during competitive winching and then compare that to what happens at Tuff Truck.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

How do you propose vehicles are recovered?

Because competitive and recovery winching still pose the same problems. the only way to make it safe for spectators is to have them back beyond harm. So there needs to be a greater clear area around the events with adequate viewing for x amount of people. Also adequate winch points are needed to shorten winch cable lengths. Luckily we don't have huge long hills to pull cars up.

If winching isnt done under competition pressure you can control it so much better. You can run a winch out and give it a gentle pull and if nothing happens then you can rethink your recovery. If it comes to the point that you are going to load the cable to anything significant (which is again a judgment call by a responsible recovery team) you get the crowd to move way back and when everything is safe you winch away.

The whole concept of letting competitors winch away at max loads under competition pressure with close spectators is a law suit waiting to happen.

Sam

[grimbo]

I have seen guys using a dampner attached to their vehicle by a cord. this dampener sits about 6 feet from their vehicle and the other vehicle or tree also has the same set up. In addition to this a central dampener was used. In the demo they broke the cable to show what happens and it dropped the cable without the whiplash usually seen. granted this is not going to work in all circumstances but it was certainly a vast improvement on using a single dampener

[MissDrew]

Go to one of Dave Metcalfs winch challenge competitions and have a look at the extent to which they go to to ensure safety during competitive winching and then compare that to what happens at Tuff Truck.

Sam

So have tuff truck run like that, der how easy is was that. As somebody else said tuff truck is a allround event its not just rock crawling thats what xrcc is.

Now to date (that I know of) nobody has been hert by a winch cable in a comp and I haven`t heard of anybody being hert by one outside of comps either (I`m not in anyway saying it can`t or want happen) but people have been hert and killed by a rolling 4x4 about 400million times over the world.

[MissDrew]

And even if you tried to move the spectators you are going to have a lot of trouble - cause people set themselves up in one spot and they dont want to move. And you will never make them move in the heat of the competition.
Sam

I have done it a number of times. You just yell and tell them to move the fark back cause if the cable breaks their dead. they soon get the idea.


From the side of running a comp spectators are the biggest pain in the arse there is, because they are dumb and are like sheep. If they don`t like being 20 30 or 40 mts back then to bad, thats the way it is. As I `ve said before there are other things that can be just as dangerous but are over looked all the time.

Sam have you watch somebody die from a 4x4 rolling on him? When you have then you will also agree that winching isn`t the only dangerous thing in 4x4ing comp or no comp. That is the main point I am trying to make here and if you take winching out souly on safety then you had better look at a lot of other things aswell. I am not saying winching HAS to be in it nor am I saying that winching is safe.

[Shorty40]

For the last 20 posts each you have both said the same thing But neither of you is contradicting or debating what the other is saying

Sam, you are saying winching is dangerous (which it is and can be)

Dave, you are saying "other aspects" of wheeling are as dangerous (true aswell)

Where is this (non?) debate going ?



BTW - I am not being a pr!ck, I agree with both of you. However points have been stated, where do we go from here ? How do we address these issues as a sport ?

[MissDrew]

keep the spectators further back, winching or no winching. They will winge and bitch but to farking bad.

[Shorty40]

Unfortunately spectators=$$$=sponsorship=competitions=spectators

It is a cycle we cannot break or it all goes to shit. And if the spectators get upset that they can't see the action, they stop attending comps

However the flipside is safety. If someone gets hurt (by a winch cable, a rolled truck, dislodged rock, etc), the lawsuits would come out of the woodwork

Talk about a Catch-22

[BeZeRK]

why cant ya use all the other comps as selections for tuff truck, you have to do well in a comp (nissans, woodpecker) to get in the selection group and then the spectators vote..

this way proven rigs are in... if you build a new rig, go and prove it in some other comps! if peopple dont vote for you your rig is "pus" or you drive like shit...

maybe to top placegetters in each comp get automatic entry and have a few wildcards?

as for winching, its boring as shit, compeditors need to be allowed a few serious attempts before being penalised, then they can winch or somthing?

[Strange Rover]

keep the spectators further back, winching or no winching. They will winge and bitch but to farking bad.

Im not going to let this go.

Keep the spectators back 5m to the side generally, 10m to the side on the lower portion of an obstacle and no spectators below an obstacle when there is no competitive winching.

Keep them back 50m when there is competitive winching.

Its that simple. For the interest of safety there should be no competitive winching. This is the only way this sport is going to grow safely and successfully. You want the spectators to be up close and you want them to be safe.

Sam

[Britswed]

and if there is winching plasma or rope type cable only much safer than cable

been watching this thread for ages to me TT isnt pete & dobbins althought there rigs are cool its the avearge rigs i love its kermit & wild vilot having a go

So lets hope it happens & lets hope it has a veriety of trucks in it

Cheers Mal

[Shorty40]

keep the spectators further back, winching or no winching. They will winge and bitch but to farking bad.

Im not going to let this go.
Keep the spectators back 5m to the side generally, 10m to the side on the lower portion of an obstacle and no spectators below an obstacle when there is no competitive winching.

Keep them back 50m when there is competitive winching.

Its that simple. For the interest of safety there should be no competitive winching. This is the only way this sport is going to grow safely and successfully. You want the spectators to be up close and you want them to be safe.

Sam

Sam,

I don't understand what you are not going to let go

You have basically stated what Dave is saying. Am I missing something ?

[Shorty40]

Keep them back 50m when there is competitive winching.

Its that simple. For the interest of safety there should be no competitive winching. This is the only way this sport is going to grow safely and successfully. You want the spectators to be up close and you want them to be safe.

Sam

[MissDrew]

Keep the spectators back 5m to the side generally, 10m to the side on the lower portion of an obstacle and no spectators below an obstacle when there is no competitive winching.

Sam

Thats just way to close winching or not
15 to 20mts as a min is what I think.
anybody else remember Snowy at nissan trials when he landed on his side in the crowd? Luckily he missed everybody, but stuffed if I know how and this was on a flat stage, not one with big rocks and ledges to fall off.

[Dozoor]

been said before , Day before the event . Qualifing $100 or $200 ,
A long Track , with a gradual increase in difficulty .
No winching , Say a ten minute,15 minute time out, No penaltys for stoping or reverses, Disqual for knocking over cones bunting ,
Oh and dis for stupid driving like that red y orange gq tray top thing in tt1.

First sixty get in for qual , Top twenty go through for the weekends comp,
Pay there extra entry bucks ,

You will only get teams in that GET IT Happening ,
If they don't make it its not because they failed in some frog shit part of the event .

On another note Engineering and show and shine,RTi ,entry departure , how many cup holders , are necsesary parts of this event , and give extra browny pionts for the sponsers ,They are needed but there pionts should be on a different panel in the scor baord and not in any way effect the players in the driving part of the event .

These sections should still have the trophys prizes ect they normally have , as it helps to bring better quality to the rigs.

Maybe for the winch freaks they could add an event , Up hill slope meausured ten meters , shortest time up winch only ,

(hey Guts can you put 3phase on my zook )

[Midget]

I think having to pay extra money just to try and qualify is bloody ridiculous.We are forking out enough money as it is to enter the bloody comps.
And as i've said before, As for the show and shine,rti,approach/departure and engineering points score,I think it should be part of the same scoring system.It is called TUFF TRUCK after all,and a TUFF TRUCK should look the part and perform in everyone of these areas.Just like they do in the TOP TRUCK CHALLENGE in the states.

This is just my opinion.

Jamie

[Dozoor]

You wouldn,t be paying extra ,

First sixty get in for qual , Top twenty go through for the weekends comp,
Pay there extra entry bucks ,

Your just paying part of your overall entry fee ,

No amount of thought could get a more fair system of entry.absolute ability only.

If you think you will get fair entry by using previous comps ,then you havn,t seen the politics and crap thats involved in gaining entry to some events .

At least tuff truck is a seperate entity and hopfully it will stay that way ,
This is the one thing that makes this event stand out from the rest
You don't have to brown nose some jellybellybonehead in a club to get in.

As Madshort said , he drives a real world 4x .
The new owners will have to do some serious thinking about where the event will be going , A large majority of the vehicles that are competing are NOT properly engineered for rego purposes, and this sort of blind eye attitude for some compititors is Just not good sportsman ship.
They can state they seen the engineeres papers but hay you want other compteors and the public to believe it , put a copy on display.
So its a case of make it no rego or make it Real,.


But if you want to run it in todays insurance climate then you will have to make it REAL.

Sam You are Dead right on cables , Winching cable let go on some dudes in paupgini , and a guy got done neck to under arm .
Larry.

[Midget]

The way comps are going nowa days,it is heading more and more into the un-rego'd type events.Take last years nissan trials for example,They had more rollovers then any other event.Now you can't honestly tell me you would take your everyday 80,100series or GQ/GU family 4wd into a comp that will write it off.
If you can then good luck to ya, you have more money than brains.
They are designing the courses harder to the point of you have to trash you car just to drive them.I for one want to see the 4wd sport grow bigger and better,But also keep some events like nissan trials to a less hard core type event,The type of event that the average joe blow can take there family 4wd into and have some fun,of course make the classes and courses to suit,but also allow the sport to grow and allow un-rego'd buggys and the like to still compete.

Again this is just my opinion.

Jamie

[Dozoor]

The way comps are going nowa days,it is heading more and more into the un-rego'd type events.Take last years nissan trials for example,They had more rollovers then any other event.Now you can't honestly tell me you would take your everyday 80,100series or GQ/GU family 4wd into a comp that will write it off.
If you can then good luck to ya, you have more money than brains.
They are designing the courses harder to the point of you have to trash you car just to drive them.I for one want to see the 4wd sport grow bigger and better,But also keep some events like nissan trials to a less hard core type event,The type of event that the average joe blow can take there family 4wd into and have some fun,of course make the classes and courses to suit,but also allow the sport to grow and allow un-rego'd buggys and the like to still compete.

Again this is just my opinion.

Jamie

I agree Jamie , They really need to make it one or the other.
Not every one can find that illusive engineer that will go the Dark side and certify twice the legal travel on suspension instead of the written 1/3 extra ,and the visual impairment of the hydraulic spring overs hanging 8" plus out of bonnets , ect ect

(Ps ,j your sites looking good)
Larry.

[MADSHORT]

No offence Sam but you were talking about court cases
If you were to have a accident in your car here in one of our comps or up there in one of your comps you WILL have the arse sued of you
Cause there is no way in this world your 4b is engineered and registered in QLD (sorry can be registered as you do not have to present your 4b for registration)
Same goes for other QLD competitors (last Tuff Truck)
P.S Trust me half the 4bs down here are not registerable
This is why i am getting involved in CCDA so that we can get rules on track
QLD obviously does not want to get involved with CCDA for these reasons
As for your comps I would be asking to see insurance details from the organisers before competing as i would like to think that if i paid entry fee that i would be covered if i hurt some body in comp or transit stages
THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
Gordon

[Midget]

Gordon
I would like to get involved with the CCDA,but are they willing to keep the comps open for the un-rego'd side of things???
Cause if they close it out all together,it will kill the sport..

Jamie

[Strange Rover]

No offence Sam but you were talking about court cases
If you were to have a accident in your car here in one of our comps or up there in one of your comps you WILL have the arse sued of you
Cause there is no way in this world your 4b is engineered and registered in QLD (sorry can be registered as you do not have to present your 4b for registration)
Same goes for other QLD competitors (last Tuff Truck)
P.S Trust me half the 4bs down here are not registerable
This is why i am getting involved in CCDA so that we can get rules on track
QLD obviously does not want to get involved with CCDA for these reasons
As for your comps I would be asking to see insurance details from the organisers before competing as i would like to think that if i paid entry fee that i would be covered if i hurt some body in comp or transit stages
THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
Gordon

This is true although every comp we compete in up here is for unregistered cars an my understanding is they are insured properly (by the 4wd park owners - we have 3 of them up here that run unregistered comps)

I think the CCDA is only looking at registered winch speed events and dont really have an interest in the unregistered competitions.

Sam

[MissDrew]

Gordon
I would like to get involved with the CCDA,but are they willing to keep the comps open for the un-rego'd side of things???
Cause if they close it out all together,it will kill the sport..

Jamie

Their long term goal is to include unregoed rigs. To start with NO they will not be allowed but the insurance company has been spoken to about it and their replie was, lets get it up and running first then we will bring in unregoed rigs once the hard part of getting it running has been done.

Does that make sense?

[MissDrew]

I think the CCDA is only looking at registered winch speed events and dont really have an interest in the unregistered competitions.

Sam

No its not just for winch speed events. They want queenslands events in as well but queensland are doing their own thing ORCA or something like that.

[Dozoor]

Well Just been having a look at there rules ,

There was a previous driver assoc that tried get going but the rules where much to be desired , These ones look pretty much in the ball park to me , The standard class rules are exellent .

There are a few bits here and there that certian makes of car will get uptight about but i think as a whole they will work good .

Bummer they won,t work for the thing im building .
Ive put a fiar bit of time and thought into it already and there is no place for it in there rules even in the challenge class.

But If they can get this setup running im prepared to back it ,
and i,ll just Come up with a new setup that fits there regs and biuld it to them .

I would be happy with that if i could see some solidarity from
other competitors .

Sam i think there is some leeway for interstate rego rules there that would not discount your mog rover , but would take out the lockless buggy even if it had been regeod, ruling in challenge class requires the chassis from the body type , to be retianed. thats the rule that does my zook body on the rove chas thing in.

But i could biuld to fit ,cut here spark there
Larry

[MissDrew]

The rules at the moment are only a starting point and are there to be changed if need be.

[planb]

No offence Sam but you were talking about court cases
If you were to have a accident in your car here in one of our comps or up there in one of your comps you WILL have the arse sued of you
Cause there is no way in this world your 4b is engineered and registered in QLD (sorry can be registered as you do not have to present your 4b for registration)
Same goes for other QLD competitors (last Tuff Truck)
P.S Trust me half the 4bs down here are not registerable
This is why i am getting involved in CCDA so that we can get rules on track
QLD obviously does not want to get involved with CCDA for these reasons
As for your comps I would be asking to see insurance details from the organisers before competing as i would like to think that if i paid entry fee that i would be covered if i hurt some body in comp or transit stages
THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION
Gordon

This is true although every comp we compete in up here is for unregistered cars an my understanding is they are insured properly (by the 4wd park owners - we have 3 of them up here that run unregistered comps)

I think the CCDA is only looking at registered winch speed events and dont really have an interest in the unregistered competitions.

Sam

That was my concern also, but the challnge class in about 12 months time, will (fingers crossed) cater for un registered vehicles, and the 'anything goes' approach to this class rules will suit rock events perfectly.

My understanding is, that the individual event organisers will then annexe their event rules to the CCDA rules, to cater for each events unique competition, like rear steer or no rear steer, portals or no portals etc etc

CCDA is good thing

however, the way ORCA has formed and split from the unified CCDA, any ORCA sanctioned events, are unlikely to secure proper insurance for unregistered vehicles.

sponsorship of these events wont be as attractive when a commercial risk free event is operating for the same audience.