Cheezy racing front bar, tow hook mods

[Screwy]

Goes to show they are for looks and to make ppl feel like they have recovery points.....

appears they are far weaker looking than the cheezy ones......

wondering if he would be able to snatch a shopping trolly with those???

[Black Bull]

i reckon if you take that black thing out in the middle and use that point for recovery it might be the best idea.

I suggested that ( We sell those too ) but he didn't like the idea of an un-rated pin holding it all together

Oh and now I'm at the shop, here's a picture of that finished recovery point, they've been used now on maybe 6 occasions including being chained to a tree doing a rather difficult triple line pull with a 9.5K winch

Excuse the pressure pack paint job

[bad_religion_au]

As an example off what I consider an acceptable recovery point, here's a photo of one half finished



Now after that was done the entire section of the chassis was fish plated with 6mm plate back 300mm down past the bend in the chassis, around the point itself was pre-heated and stitched over the initial root weld

as kingy said, can you prove your weld is rated to whatever minimum specification? i'm not doubting your welding ability, but if you want to talk "rated" recovery points, it's a valid question.

I never said that they "loose Tensile or loose shear" but the what I was referring to the Ductility of the bolt, a grade 4 bolt will deform to a certain point before it shears or snaps, however as the tensile strength increases the ductility of the bolt decreases or in laymans terms becomes more brittle. one of the reason I always use mild tensile bolts in bull bar mounts.


Agreed, but we've all been in situations where the only option is a pull. I'm sure we've both seen 8t Snatch straps break ?

Really ? it was a 14t Bus we had a 20t sling but unfortunately the larger shackles would not fit in the tow points. my point was that the shackle can withstand much more than it's rated load for brief periods of time, referring to to the "Peak" forces that are generated in a recovery situation

a 4.7 tonne shackle could be used to safely AIRLIFT an entire large 4bie. day in, day out using a helecopter or a crane.

Agreed. but let it drop 30 feet and come to the end of a solidly affixed cable or chain, you'd tear the point off the chassis

really?

and high tensile bolts are just that, tensile, they have very little strength when in single shear

reads like your saying that high tensile bolts "have little sheer strength"...

but if you read that link i posted, it also debunks your "ductility" argument too. yes, mild steel bolts are more ductile than high tensile. but that won't save anything, as the ULTIMATE strength, or breaking point, of the lower tensile fastener is LOWER than the yield strength of the high tensile fastener.

so your "mild steel" bullbar bolts will stretch, then break, before you even start stretching the high tensile bolt. so you just admitted to making the bullbar mounts weaker than they could be. not something i'd be happy with as a customer.

no, i've never seen a snatchy break from being under too much force in any recovery i've had anything to do with. the only once i've had a strap fail was where the snatchy was rubbing against a sharp edge on the rear bumper (recovery hooks were on the chassis behind the bumper). sure there are some instances where the only choice is a pull... but that doesn't mean that you don't road build/shovel/ just plain make life easier.

yes really, you said it yourself. 14 tonne bus, 4 tonne shackle. bad rigging. the recovery wasn't being done right.

how is that a legitimate argument (to drop it 30 feet)? if your taking 30 foot run ups on your snatch recoveries, i say again, your doing them wrong.

i never argued you cannot break a 3.7 tonne or 4.5 tonne SWL eyelet, my argument is that there is no reason to be putting enough force to break one into ANY recovery. because, pretty sure putting enough force to break one will probably twist your chassis first.

i may have been wrong in saying the eyelets are rated in sheer. but even so, general rule of thumb is a bolt in single sheer has 60% of it's ultimate strength in sheer. so a 3.7 tonne eyelet, being used for a 90 degree recovery, still has a SWL of ~ 2.2 tonne. or a rough estimate breaking load of 6.6 tonne... which should be enough (not that many recoveries are at 90 degrees to the front or rear of the vehicle). your rigging course said a theoretical limit of 60 degrees from a straight pull? that gives a 120 degree arc that a recovery can be performed while the eyelet is still rated at it's safe working load...

[Screwy]

Now i have a key statement to add to this....

Its something i mentioned to Tiny yesterday when i asked him about it on the phone......

An eyelet of any kind or size is not allowed. Lets say its a 4.75 tonne eyelet with a 4.75 tonne bow shackle on it ( the shackle is whats allowed by CCDA )
A BIG NO NO before you even look at its strength. Its dismissed due to being an eyelet.

However,

If i simply weld a plate to my rig with a bow shackle in it. Provided its done well enough to present well......... IT WILL PASS.

Now that takes into no concideration the strength of the weld, or in many instances the plate thickness and ability for it to bend or snap off on a side load....
If it looks strong it passes.

IN MOST INSTANCES I WOULD HONESTLY BELEIVE THAT PPL WOULD BE GOING FROM A MUCH STRONGER POINT TO AN UNPROVEN WEAKER POINT............... AND IT WOULD PASS.

An eyelet may be designed for a certain load, but at least it has a stamped rating you can be sure of, under scrutineering in any comp, how can u be sure of ones fab skills and how the point was made with no rating on it......???

Not to mention, they dont allow cast hooks, but they do allow those 2 bolt cast hooks which i think are worse cause you cant attach a bow shackle to them without it falling off.....

where is the sanity in all of this i wonder????

[Screwy]

Long story short.........

I have no choice but to remove my eyelets, i cant upgrade them. I have to remove them.

I then have to weld something in there that is in my mind stronger, and thats what this thread is about.

The disturbing thing is that i want something stronger, but many will simply, as said above, weld in something that in unproven and weaker, and the CCDA will have no problems with it, till the weld breaks off and kills someone...

Screwy

[V8Patrol]

. Something else will break before they do. They're made out of 20mm from memory, but I probably wouldn't go any less than 16mm.

"The lugs aren't cut into the bar, just welded on, about an 8mm fillet"
& for the plate thickness that about the right size...... but what about the bars actual thickness
It appears to be a short length of channel and around the 125mm wide mark..... so it has a web thickness of ~6mm...... then theres the bar to chassis mount that looks like a 4mm plate ( weld size not visiable)....

You've added a 20mm lug with a 8mm weld to a 6mm plate thats then welded to a 4mm plate thats bolted to a 3mm chassis

and thats the exact situation I explained earlier.....

The big issue like with all these mods is once one thing is improved it transfers the load into the next "weak link"..... if you create a snatch point thats ratable for the maximum amount the question then becomes is the bars mounting just as ratable as the improved snatch point its holding





"Something else will break before they do"
Have they been engineered to back up that statement ?

From experiance that is not a good setup, any snatch thats not directly in line with the lugs will add side load to the lugs......... this then creates a situation where the verticle weld on one side is in compression and the other side in sheer thus deminishing the total strength considerably.

For example:
If I said "lets cut one lug off", the simplest way would be to cut down one side and then belt it with a sledge hammer & lets face it , we've all done that style removal at some stage and we all know its a quick and simple removal.....
The same will apply when an offline snatch is done, it will place all the load onto the side in sheer ....... effectively you are only going to be using the one side of weld in an offline recovery

so if your ever snatched offline......... I'll go n stand at the back of your rig.... just to be safe


Kingy

[Screwy]

Your point Kingy is valid,

however under the eyes of CCDA his bar would pass over a eyelet.

The scary part is as you said, there i no regard for the strength of the barwork that the recovery point is attached to.

Engineering is not required for Tow hooks in any 4x4 comp.

Its only commonly looked for as either a rated bolt on hook or as they say in the rules " an over engineered looking " point is what they are after.

Screwy

[V8Patrol]

Funny thing today, had a customer come in after having his new rear bar fitted to his Hilux. he was looking for rear recovery points

Turns out he's a rigger for a crane company and was Livid after complaining about the "recovery" points on the rear bar and then being told to use both of them if he didn't think they were strong enough

the bar in question fitted to a Hilux (ARB Stock Image)



None of the bolt on style hooks would fit so he's gone to get some 5/8" plate welded up the sides where it mounts to the rails

"Turns out he's a rigger for a crane company and was Livid after complaining about the "recovery" points on the rear bar "

and rightly so ...... you'll struggle to find any crane opperator that will use an eylet as a lifting point simply because they can not be rated for a lift.....




make ya wonder how then they are accepted for a snatching point

[uninformed]

thought in comps, recovery points had to be bolted not welded??

Serg

[V8Patrol]

I can see where you comming from Jeff..... its a whole ugly situation thats going to end in tears for some poor unsuspecting bugger and your just trying to do the right thing in the middle of it all.

Perhaps the CCDA should be informed of this thread and a solution be decided upon before the event where a snatching point does break free and kills someone.

[bad_religion_au]

thats bolted to a 3mm chassis

semantics i know, but the chassis on a 40 series (pictured) is thicker than 3mm

agree with everything your saying tho. i doubt there would be an engineer out there that would claim that the above setup is stronger than what my (non CCDA legal) rear points are (4.75 tonne eyelets, through the rear bar and chassis which has been plated with 6mm steel the entire length of the rear x member to spread the load)

[80's_delirious]

You've added a 20mm lug with a 8mm weld to a 6mm plate thats then welded to a 4mm plate thats bolted to a 3mm chassis


Kingy

without disagreeing, this is a little bit of an over simplification IMO. There is more to consider than just the thickness of each member. the design and conection of each part will play a part in the strength of the final product.

I think the best you can build would be a plate that was bolted directly to the chassis, with crush tubes and several fixings, and extending as far along the chassis as practical. Then have the plate extend through the front bar to form the recovery point tab. That way there are no welds, and a single peice of steel between the point of connection with the chassis and the recovery point/shackle etc.



Kingy

[Narrowscopeofreality]

The bar isn't channel, it's fabricated from 10mm angle iron, and 10 mm flat bar, gusseted with a full prep. It hasn't been mounted yet, the 3mm you can see is actually 6mm and is just sitting there for the time being.

No, I haven't had it engineered. Many years in a heavy engineering workshop fabricating and welding structual steel, most of which is either UT'd or X-rayed has me pretty confident they'll hold up though.

I understand your point on the next weakest link, hence the reason I hadn't fitted it yet. I had planned on sandwiched 6mm 300mm down the chassis, welded top and bottom where the 'channel' meets the chassis, and braced, but haven't decided yet.

[maddog_75]

slightly off topic in terms of the cheezy bar...

but i was just wondering, i've always been told that you should never weld plates (with a hole in it to put a shackle through) onto the car/bullbar as a means to add a new (or in my case the only) recovery point.

is this true?

i ask this as with my bullbar on my hzj75 ute it is unable to have recovery hooks fitted and when i queried the people at 4wd shops they say to NEVER weld on recovery hooks or to NEVER weld on a plate that a recovery hook could be fitted onto.

sorry again for going off topic, but it seems this is being discussed here in terms of the cheezy bar, so i was just wondering about my stock bar.

cheers.

[Narrowscopeofreality]

It's probably because of reasons mentioned. The 4wd shop has to cover its arse, for when some clown does a shonky backweld weld job on his bullbar, it pulls off or rips a hole in the bar and kills someone. 4wd shop gets sued. There's no way of telling the integrity of the weld when not done by a professional/tested. How well did the weld penetrate? How much has the heat affected the parent metal? (Bullbar) Will the bar it's welded to support the stress in that area? Will it need to be reinforced?

I think you'll find the shop would tell you something different if you were getting it professionally welded and engineered.

Just my thoughts though, I don't actually know that's the reason. I wouldn't recommend doing it yourself at home. Too many factors that could cause things to go catostrophically wrong.

[maddog_75]

i was also told that welds cant be engineered/rated/test...

so yeah, and that was by 2 different 4wd shops

[Narrowscopeofreality]

Well that one I do know, you've been told b/s.

[maddog_75]

not surprised...but wont go mentioning names on who said that.

oh, and another shop told me about how there are no such things as 'recovery points' since cars arent designed to be pulled out and such; there are supposedly only things known as 'heavy duty tow hooks'...

and this is why i dont usually buy from 4wd shops, because i always get a different story, sigh

anyhows, BACK ONTO THE TOPIC!

[Screwy]

welds can be tested and so can strength etc, however its at high cost and the 4x4 shops wont want any part in doing that.....

Screwy

[Breaker Brother]

welds can be tested and so can strength etc, however its at high cost and the 4x4 shops wont want any part in doing that.....

Screwy

Yeah the stupid part about that is that a boilermaker etc can't legally weld anything on a registered vehicle unless it's his own, yet a mechanic with nothing more than basic training at tafe can

Go figure ?

That aside, I made sure my Insurance covers things like this as I specifically stated that I wanted to be covered for chassis/suspension and body modifications.

But yes if anyone knows somebody in the CCDA, point them at this thread as I'd like to see what they have to say on this subject.

I can only assume they depend on the scrutineers when the vehicle is issued it's log book.

[uninformed]

and rightly so ...... you'll struggle to find any crane opperator that will use an eylet as a lifting point simply because they can not be rated for a lift.....




make ya wonder how then they are accepted for a snatching point

WTf???

are you referring to the bolt on eyelets??? because you can buy them rated for lifting, they get used all the time on site, bolted to the tops of PFC's and UB's for ease of installation etc..... you can get them with threaded shank or just tapped and use a HT bolt with appropriate washer behind it, hole that it passes through should be a good fit max+2mm

Serg

[ludacris]

Recovery points constructed as a plate and a loop of steel welded to it, as fitted to Nissan and
Mitsubishi vehicles, and the eyes on commercial bullbars, unless they are triple laminated and fully
welded, are not permitted. Tie down points including those on monocoque body vehicles will not
be accepted.
Rated towbars will be accepted as recovery points, however towballs shall not be used for
connecting recovery equipment.
Recovery points should be suitably over engineered. The rules call for recovery points to be rated
at twice the vehicle mass. While recovery points may not be test loaded scrutineers will be applying the “over engineered” approach when inspecting them at scrutineering and the onus to
supply proof of strength will be with the Competitor.

From CCDA website.

Personally I bolt my recovery points on aswell as weld them.

Cris

[sudso]

welds can be tested and so can strength etc, however its at high cost and the 4x4 shops wont want any part in doing that.....

Screwy

Yeah the stupid part about that is that a boilermaker etc can't legally weld anything on a registered vehicle unless it's his own,

Since when?

[sudso]

Hey Screwy this is where I put my recovery hooks. It's about the only place to put them on a cheezy style bar, on the sides of the winch cradle.
Load share plate between the hook and bar and between nuts and bar on the other side too. Used M12 hi tens and 100mm long from memory.
I left the eyelets on there. They're ok for double line winching.

[Screwy]

Hey Screwy this is where I put my recovery hooks. It's about the only place to put them on a cheezy style bar, on the sides of the winch cradle.
Load share plate between the hook and bar and between nuts and bar on the other side too. Used M12 hi tens and 100mm long from memory.
I left the eyelets on there. They're ok for double line winching.

And ive finally found someone who answered the original post

So when you bolted those on, u welded plate both sides as well????

Screwy

[sudso]

Hey Screwy this is where I put my recovery hooks. It's about the only place to put them on a cheezy style bar, on the sides of the winch cradle.
Load share plate between the hook and bar and between nuts and bar on the other side too. Used M12 hi tens and 100mm long from memory.
I left the eyelets on there. They're ok for double line winching.

And ive finally found someone who answered the original post

So when you bolted those on, u welded plate both sides as well????

Screwy

I just tacked them in position so my holes in the bar and plates lined up. The hooks and tightened bolts hold them there anyway.

[Screwy]

ok so for those that are interested in the final product, i modified my front recovery points this weekend.....

unbolted the 2.5 tonne eyelet, left a 25 mm hole....

I made up 4 25mm thick recovery ' D ' brackets with a 25mm hole in them for a 4.7 tonne bow shackle....

The cheezy bar is 6mm on the front, and the inner winch cradle welded to the inside is 10mm so a total of 16mm thick......

I cut the 25mm hole into a rectangle, slotted my new points through the bar and welded them to the innner 10mm winch cradle and the outer 6mm bar itself.....

should do the trick, pics as below...

Screwy

[maddog_75]

looks good!

whats the preferred type of welding method for welding on the recovery points? arc, tig, mig?

[Narrowscopeofreality]

Nice work Screwy. Should hold up eh.

maddog_75, MIG

[Screwy]

looks good!

whats the preferred type of welding method for welding on the recovery points? arc, tig, mig?

Yeh i used my mig on a very high setting to allow penetration through to the thick steel....
But im sure if your a good welder with all types of welder, you could use any of the above....

Screwy