Formula Suzuki Brainstorm

[TuffRR]

This should be a pretty cool event. Shame I'll be puttin that money back into getting my other POS on the road.

I think the basic idea behind the event needs to be worked out though:
Test drivers skill - run close to stock standard zuks.
Test builders skill and a bit more $$$ - allow modded rigs.

The type of terrain you want to run it in will also play a part in which vehicle mods to allow. If it were std sierras, we could have rounds being run at the local Coles Carparks all over the nation.

A good point was made further back and something that has become apparent over the years - the more modded the truck, the harder you have to look for tracks to find challenging. Sticking with a std zuk would make finding locations easier.

So in conclusion, STANDARD ZUK!!!!!.

[greg]

Mj , By way of the chassis rial measurment of ride hieght ,this will keep both swb and lwb about even , eg : lwb will hang up on brake over clearance , yet be more stable on super steep stuff .

I still think it'd be fun watching but the LWB 1.3 sierras will win.

Im keen Id like to see that

Don't mention this around grimbo, but technically my swb has driven through a few things that he hasn't been able to - even with that extra wheelbase.

Another Note: Jimny's only have 1" less wheelbase than a lwb sierra, and i think swb vitaras are in a very similar range too.

Well I had a bit of a chat with Droopy Pete yesterday regarding the rules and planning for this sort of comp and a few issues that rose out of it were things like:

1. do we want to appeal to people who already have suzukis, or are we appealing to new people who will buy a suzuki just for this comp.

2. why do we care about wheelbase or engine size, or efi vs carb. All of these setups will have their adv's and dis's at some stage. lwb's are really only going to be better in steep climbs and descents. Everywhere else they are a disadvantage i think.

3. why are we limiting tyre size? i gather it is to make the max level seem more attainable to people who don't have it. - why not limit tyre size by restricting axels - i.e. run a 37" bogger if you want, but don't allow repairs to be made on the trucks?

[christover1]

classifying vehicles and/or drivers is open to a lot of traps. but if you allow people to pick any class equal to or above there vehicle, then people may be more happy. christover,

[N*A*M]

point 1: i think we have to appeal to those with pre-built zooks. it's the only way to get it off the ground.

point 2: i agree there are advantages and distadvantages to all set ups. i actually don't have any issues with lwb sierras (factory or not), but i do think that fuel injection, and engine swaps afford the competitors too much advantage.

point 3: i originally suggested 35" tyres as a restriction but that really wasn't much of a restriction. i agree that the bigger you run, the greater the gains but the higher the risks. i'd like to leave that option open for people. i think other people wanted a limited tyre size to level the field more. i doubt many would consider bigger than 35/6 anyway.

[greg]

point 1: i think we have to appeal to those with pre-built zooks. it's the only way to get it off the ground.

point 2: i agree there are advantages and distadvantages to all set ups. i actually don't have any issues with lwb sierras (factory or not), but i do think that fuel injection, and engine swaps afford the competitors too much advantage.

point 3: i originally suggested 35" tyres as a restriction but that really wasn't much of a restriction. i agree that the bigger you run, the greater the gains but the higher the risks. i'd like to leave that option open for people. i think other people wanted a limited tyre size to level the field more. i doubt many would consider bigger than 35/6 anyway.

Based upon points 1 and 2 nam, i think it would be good to open the engines up to say anything suzuki that is less than 2L, or something like that... Because if you are trying to include a wider range of cars - that is how to do it because a lot of sierra owners have done the 1.6L swap.

Your point 3 suites me fine... though i would be equally happy to run 26's if that was what was required

[droopypete]

point 1: i think we have to appeal to those with pre-built zooks. it's the only way to get it off the ground.

point 2: i agree there are advantages and distadvantages to all set ups. i actually don't have any issues with lwb sierras (factory or not), but i do think that fuel injection, and engine swaps afford the competitors too much advantage.

point 3: i originally suggested 35" tyres as a restriction but that really wasn't much of a restriction. i agree that the bigger you run, the greater the gains but the higher the risks. i'd like to leave that option open for people. i think other people wanted a limited tyre size to level the field more. i doubt many would consider bigger than 35/6 anyway.

Based upon points 1 and 2 nam, i think it would be good to open the engines up to say anything suzuki that is less than 2L, or something like that... Because if you are trying to include a wider range of cars - that is how to do it because a lot of sierra owners have done the 1.6L swap.

Your point 3 suites me fine... though i would be equally happy to run 26's if that was what was required [/quote

Now we are talking, any Suzuli engine less than 2L, Woohoo, I can run now.
This class realy appeals to me, but to be honest I could not see how I could afford to build, rego, engineer and insure a second car that would be so close to what I allready have, it just would not happen, and there are a lot of guys in the same position as me (that is the que for you other guys to chime in ).
I keep going back to Nam's 1st post thinking he is so close to the money.
Peter.

[greg]

chime

1. suzuki engine less than 2L (efi / carb / lpg / vegetable oil / whatever)
2. any wheels and tyres so long as you are running suzuki diffs
3. roll bar / cage
4. functioning seatbelt
5. helmet (of appropriate standard)
6. requirement of at least one rollover per heat

[redzook]

engine size dosent worry me

neither does tyre size if people want to run 35"s an brake at the start line
thats cool

[Beastmavster]

Don't mention this around grimbo, but technically my swb has driven through a few things that he hasn't been able to - even with that extra wheelbase.

Another Note: Jimny's only have 1" less wheelbase than a lwb sierra, and i think swb vitaras are in a very similar range too.

Well I had a bit of a chat with Droopy Pete yesterday regarding the rules and planning for this sort of comp and a few issues that rose out of it were things like:

1. do we want to appeal to people who already have suzukis, or are we appealing to new people who will buy a suzuki just for this comp.

2. why do we care about wheelbase or engine size, or efi vs carb. All of these setups will have their adv's and dis's at some stage. lwb's are really only going to be better in steep climbs and descents. Everywhere else they are a disadvantage i think.

3. why are we limiting tyre size? i gather it is to make the max level seem more attainable to people who don't have it. - why not limit tyre size by restricting axels - i.e. run a 37" bogger if you want, but don't allow repairs to be made on the trucks?

SWB Vitara is from memory something like 86" wheelbase... so it's somewhere in the middle of a SWB and LWB Sierra. Jimny would be no longer than a Vitara in the wheelbase, so the LWB is still a huge advantage on trails where the wheelbase is a key factor.

However I don't really think that's so important... what a LWB gains in stability they're gonna lose in rampover anyway if they're limited to 31"s.

I think the points are:

1) We want people who already have modified suzukis.... as people aren't gonna sell up their current modified 4by to join... although they might buy a $300 trailer queen to tow behind their patrol....

Keeping the mods limited keeps both groups happy... except for those of you already running 35"s or better, and you can just put some spare wheels on.

2) I don't know that these variaitions are a major issue... I'm not that fussed if a guy with a LWB Sierra and EFI Vitara engine lines up against me. I think it adds to the crowd appeal and also allows more people able to be involved.

However care will need to be taken when designing the trails so that no significant advantage is given to one config over another.

If one config becomes dominant then we may need to look at some form of parity after a few events. You never know it might even be the mighty vitara that needs to be restricted

3) I think that 31" is a reasonable tyre size... any more than that and it's pointless trying to compete witha Jimny, a Vitara or a Coilly Sierra as it's too much money and effort to get the rubber under it, plus the mods start moving into "point of no return"

The important thing is to make the rules accessable to as many as possible..... as almost all of the Zookers out there are running on 28-33" rubber, and most of them are on 30" or 31" rubber this is a reasonable size.

Plus the cost of up/downgrading to 31" still makes it a cheap enough class as secondhand 31"s are cheap.

The difference between 30 and 31" isn't gonna force anyone out...and people might still compete on their 30"s but the difference between 31" and 35" might.... I know it would force me out.

If you really wanna show how much money you have buy some competition 31" tyres..... or go buy a winch and play in XRCC.

The other two responses to this are that if you have 35"s or bigger on your zook already there are other competitions that you should be capable of competing sucessfully in - this is supposed to be a budget class.

35"s on a Sierra and you wouldn't be ashamed in tough truck for instance.

It's also much easier that if these guys still wanna compete in Formula Zook they can always swap wheels.. It ain't so easy to "just swap" up to 35"s


Maybe we should have a poll on Suzuki tyre sizes, to see who would be interested in competing and what sizes they want..

[greg]

engine size dosent worry me

neither does tyre size if people want to run 35"s an brake at the start line
thats cool

That's the spirit... and really this is what owning a suzuki is all about - it's the attitude of "i don't need to have the biggest car, i know that my car will make it"... and that is what we are encouraging

[greg]

3) I think that 31" is a reasonable tyre size... any more than that and it's pointless trying to compete witha Jimny, a Vitara or a Coilly Sierra as it's too much money and effort to get the rubber under it, plus the mods start moving into "point of no return"

Sorry... but once you cut holes in the body to install a roll cage, or once you start putting your car on its side / roof on a weekly basis you will well and truely be into the "point of no return"...

However, there does appear to be two very distinct ideas rolling here - one of which says Suzuki = Sierra, the other of which says Suzuki = Sierra / Jimny / Vitara... NAM, perhaps some decisions are required here?

[Beastmavster]

3) I think that 31" is a reasonable tyre size... any more than that and it's pointless trying to compete witha Jimny, a Vitara or a Coilly Sierra as it's too much money and effort to get the rubber under it, plus the mods start moving into "point of no return"

Sorry... but once you cut holes in the body to install a roll cage, or once you start putting your car on its side / roof on a weekly basis you will well and truely be into the "point of no return"...

However, there does appear to be two very distinct ideas rolling here - one of which says Suzuki = Sierra, the other of which says Suzuki = Sierra / Jimny / Vitara... NAM, perhaps some decisions are required here?

I think it's more a camp of "I want to use the 35"s I already have on it" versus "I wanna use the 31"s I have on it"


If the intent is a Sierra SWB only class, then call it a Sierra only class... not formula suzuki.

I think anyone with a AWD Swift/Alto should be allowed to compete if they want.


The factor for "point of no return" here is that putting a nice polished alloy cage in it looks good... but taking an anglegrinder and hammer to the guards doesnt.

I can sell my Vitara much easier with a cage in it thatn I can with cut guards, bashed firewall and CIG rear....

Pity really...... as I should have thought about that first

[greg]

I think it's more a camp of "I want to use the 35"s I already have on it" versus "I wanna use the 31"s I have on it"

either way suites me fine really.

If the intent is a Sierra SWB only class, then call it a Sierra only class... not formula suzuki.

I think anyone with a AWD Swift/Alto should be allowed to compete if they want.

Fair call. NAM, what's the g-o? is a renaming required here? Or perhaps a re-explanation of the "Formula Suzuki" Term.

The factor for "point of no return" here is that putting a nice polished alloy cage in it looks good... but taking an anglegrinder and hammer to the guards doesnt.

I can sell my Vitara much easier with a cage in it thatn I can with cut guards, bashed firewall and CIG rear....

Pity really...... as I should have thought about that first

Yes but i don't think a vitara + shiny cage + panel damage is going to be worth much more than one that also has cut guards.

I think that you are thinking about having a cage in the car for safety but never requiring it. Where as i am looking at it as an excuse to set the witches hats up in worse sitations to force some tricky situations knowing that no-one should get hurt if something does go wrong.

[droopypete]

suzuki viagra, wrote,
quote]

I think it's more a camp of "I want to use the 35"s I already have on it" versus "I wanna use the 31"s I have on it"


quote]


Ah honesty how refreshing
Peter.

[N*A*M]

i think it's great to thrash out all different ideas here. this is still a brainstorm and nothing is definite. if it goes ahead, i would see the regulations being very loose (especially on tyres and engines) to begin with; and then as we progress, we would have a better picture of how they should be.

as it is, i am leaning towards sierra only. there is nothing to stop the owners to use the comp truck as a dd, but i see many being past the point of no return. i really don't see an issue with opening it up to vits and jimnies if we remove the engine restrictions. they are tyre restricted anyway. it really depends on the team budgets.

in terms of resale, there is nothing to say a team cannot sell its comp vehicle at the end of a season to a newcomer. the newcomer injects funds and work into the vehicle to make it competitive the next year. the original owner funds their new rig with the proceeds.

[Dozoor]

I don,t think you,ll find what you guys are leaning towards within the nsw zook club scheme of things, They where formulating an entry level
setup for buget competition ,to suit the majority of club members .

[bigsteve]

I don,t think you,ll find what you guys are leaning towards within the nsw zook club scheme of things, They where formulating an entry level
setup for buget competition ,to suit the majority of club members .

Different classes seems to cover everybody.
E.g.
Standard - Up to 31' tyre, & 4:1 Transfer one diff lock max
Modified - Up to 35' tyre, open gearing f&r diff locks blah blah

You could then restrict say the "Modified" class to sierra's only as you wouldn't find too many Vits and Jimny's that dont fit the "Standard" category.

Just a suggestion

[Guy]

In regard to max tyre size and vitara's jimny's etc being allowed in the comp and then limiting tyre size to a 31 so it suits them ..
I got 35's on my Zuk for the cost of a spring over with rears out front and a few hours with the grinder...
If ya wanna play you gotta pay ...

[Beastmavster]

I don,t think you,ll find what you guys are leaning towards within the nsw zook club scheme of things, They where formulating an entry level
setup for buget competition ,to suit the majority of club members .

Different classes seems to cover everybody.
E.g.
Standard - Up to 31' tyre, & 4:1 Transfer one diff lock max
Modified - Up to 35' tyre, open gearing f&r diff locks blah blah

You could then restrict say the "Modified" class to sierra's only as you wouldn't find too many Vits and Jimny's that dont fit the "Standard" category.

Just a suggestion

This isn't really a bad compromise - run two classes and possibly then use slightly different trails to keep em both entertained - have an easier "bypass route" around some of the heftier obstacles. Then you have an entry class to get people hooked and then they progress to the modified class as funds allow....

I think that the t/case ratios wouldn't need to be restricted in either class - it would also allow people to gradually build up their beast (as $$$$ permit) to near competitive level for modified, then take the plunge and put the big rubber on.

One diff lock suits me but I'm happy to put a second in to compete if need be

I don't think you need a rule stating no Vitara's or Jimny's in the Modified class.... if they think they can cut off enough metal to play in that class let them.

[grimbo]

Mj , By way of the chassis rial measurment of ride hieght ,this will keep both swb and lwb about even , eg : lwb will hang up on brake over clearance , yet be more stable on super steep stuff .

I still think it'd be fun watching but the LWB 1.3 sierras will win.

Im keen Id like to see that

Don't mention this around grimbo, but technically my swb has driven through a few things that he hasn't been able to - even with that extra wheelbase.?

front and rear lockers my boy
Now I'm locked front and rear things will be a bit different, mind you yours is running and on the road and mine is currently a shelf in the shed

[thaoldman]

Aren't you are missing a class for un-locked cars ???????????????

[Beastmavster]

Aren't you are missing a class for un-locked cars ???????????????

Yeah... but the cost of a CIG locker is cheap... and people don't wanna turn up and watch people get stuck at small obstacles

[thaoldman]

I guess it depends on what type of comp you want to run, but to suggest that an open diffed class would be boring to watch is just a dumb thing to say.

[Beastmavster]

I guess it depends on what type of comp you want to run, but to suggest that an open diffed class would be boring to watch is just a dumb thing to say.

Yeah I know... it depends on the trail... but trying to test out passable lines for 3 different configs is gonna take the organisers a long time to get it ready

[stumped]

so what's happening with this now? anything, or has it been canned?

[grimbo]

it is just a brainstorm getting ideas flowing. It isn't a definite anything yet time will tell.

[droopypete]

Pity this lost momentum
Peter.

[dank]

Would be awesome huh.

Apparently Snake are working on a formula racing series for buggies....

[droopypete]

Would be awesome huh.

Apparently Snake are working on a formula racing series for buggies....

I would rather they worked on fixing their fu@ked up steering knuckle.
Peter.