De Tomaso Engines

[hannivers]

Seen a few of what I considered to be De Tomaso engines in Ferozas, engines with dark grey rocker cover & red print, looks like a few were transplanted by workshops as just Jap import Feroza engines, I have seen at least 4 already, one was a farm vehicle and owner had never noticed performance changes, or is it possible that some other usual ferosa engines just had that colour rocker cover also. I would have previously imagined them to be quite rare, also if they were De Tomaso how do they go with F300 electricals? I have also been shown another thought to be De Tomaso in a mate's garage because he never got around to fitting it.

Are the De Tomaso's worth the effort? How much are they now worth? Are they super reliable? Who can tell us much about them? Regards from Ran

[1MadEngineer]

de thomaso!


mmmmmmm 351 cleveland!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MightyMouse]

Having done it - not worth the effort.

The electronics are really the key - HD-EG is really only a mild development of the HD-E, but without the knock sensor etc is a real problem in a Feroza.

Expensive, limited gains and certainly doesn't make the Feroza any more driveable off road ( actually worse ).

[tehekho]

On concurrence with MM,

Waste of time.

The dead tomato isn't all that special of an engine anyway. 3 point increase in compression ration (From 9.5 - 9.8) and a different camshaft profile (Higher revving). Hell, a basic regrind from tighe will get you a more agressive profile!

While increasing compression would be good for engine braking, the detom engines also like having their proverbial tits revved off...and are happy going out to 7500RPM all day every day.

With that said, I'm not one to withhold information because I don't agree with somebodies wishes.

The Blocks are identical, save for a bellhousing bolt that is present on one but not the other. Doesn't affect operation anyway. Or maybe its missing in the charade 1.3L block?

All the electronics will swap over, if you find you can't plug a sensor into the loom then swap the sensor

Now going off topic, I built an engine for swmbo's track car. I then started a track car project, and swmbo decided there was little sense in us both having track cars, so I will be putting this engine into swmbo's feroza instead.

The engine is not really special, and constructed from all stock parts (albeit chopped and changed )
Compression Ratio of circa 11:1
40 Thou oversize bore/pistons
Chome Moly Piston Rings

All new seals and all that crap...

As it site, it'll rev to 8000rpm all day every day, and only requre an oil change.

Throwing the Feroza Cam in, I'm hoping will settle it down a bit, and combined with compression, should get me *her some more torque. If not then I guess we'll just *have* to change the diff ratios wont we?

So, TL;DR

Don't waste your time - get an applause engine, and rebuild it with some 'wrong' parts and build a screamer...

I'll also be putting the Charade Dizzy and engine management in to take care of the knock, and I also like the design of the distributor in the charade a lot more, although I'm concerned on clearance problems, MM?

I feel I've thrown you enough of a bone here, but feel free to come back and ask me to spell it out after doing some research

[MightyMouse]

My engine is moved to take acount of the auto and Vitara transfer so i'm of limited fittment use in terms of will it fit.

However i do know that the only difference between a passenger HD distributor and a Feroza HD dissy is the Feroza cap has 90 lead exits. They do interchange however so i'd "guess" it wll fit.

I'm a also a bit less optimistic on the HD-EG block - mine had definate issues with the Sleeve tops moving at the cylinder head - under boost it was so bad that i condidered making a girdle or dowling the sleeves to the head.

[tehekho]

My engine is moved to take acount of the auto and Vitara transfer so i'm of limited fittment use in terms of will it fit.

However i do know that the only difference between a passenger HD distributor and a Feroza HD dissy is the Feroza cap has 90 lead exits. They do interchange however so i'd "guess" it wll fit.

I'm a also a bit less optimistic on the HD-EG block - mine had definate issues with the Sleeve tops moving at the cylinder head - under boost it was so bad that i condidered making a girdle or dowling the sleeves to the head.

As opposed to the HD-E Block, or just stating that the floating bore design is no good for Boost?

Edit:

Also the Charade Diff has a larger (width) rotor cap, but I think its also shorter (Length away from head/cam) so should fit...

[Goatse.AJ]

Charade dizzy definitely fits on a Feroza. It's tight and a mothfukle to change a dizzy cap, but doable. It also cured my pinging problems.

[tehekho]

Good, I built quite a few charades up

[MightyMouse]

Floating bore design........

The HD & HD-EG weren't bad for their day, but frankly that day is long past.

Look at whats commonly available cheap now and there are MUCH better alternatives. I've a Mazda engine for my Feroza, 1.8ltrs - 160+ kw turn the key ( assuming i develop some more motivation - or drive the JK less ) . Makes working on Diahatsu engines look pretty pointless.
Forged Pistons & Rods, twin cam, Variable induction, crank girdle, sodium valves etc etc etc.

The supercharged EG was on the limit at 140kw and the amount of work to get it right was just too much.

Anythings possible but that doesn't make it a good idea

[tehekho]

Naturally...

I Still see the Fez that I'm building a good idea though - Built from all stock parts, and ones that were lying around bar the pistons and rings...

[MightyMouse]

Yes i can see that point..... however the HD doesn't have sufficient torque IMO especially for a 100kph cruise with decent sized wheels fitted.

Certainly if you look at its maximum output then its a little different, but at around the 2000rpm mark there's just not enough and no amount of fiddling will fix that. Boost was my solution - but the engine didn't like that very much either.

[tehekho]

OK - Thats something I was unaware of...
Until I actually put the engine into SWMBO's feroza, I'll have only had experience with HD's in Charades...and the last one I build easily pushed the car to 210 KM/H (and it wanted to go faster, but I didn't)

Thankyou for your input though MM, and I'll be sure to keep you guys up to date...

[acmrally]

Hi Ran, just wondering if it was you who had a look at my De-tomaso engine at the w/end in Moriac. Can you let me know if you are still interested.
Regards Andy 0402 970 415

[hannivers]

Well guys I just purchased a DeTomaso engine from a forum member, everything looks to be in fine condition, I will prepare it for re-install into maybe Feroza, Charade or whatever. Taking on board all suggestions & advice re: high revving & reliability plus from Mighty Mouse & others.

But now need some help to identify & order, replace some parts. Before installation of any engine I usually replace the following: Front Oil Seal, Rear Oil Seal, Camshaft Oil Seals, check remove or replace Waterpump - Thermostat - Oil Pump - Welshplugs - Gaskets - plus stacks of other stuff, all good advices & ideas appreciated.

Big question about De Tomaso engine is the Oil Seals: Are they exacltly the same part numbers as other HD engines?
Spoke with local Toyota/Daihatsu parts people here in Geelong yesterday, they could not locate any parts views or listings pertaining to these engines, maybe someone can guide me further in right direction, need help guys....

Coming from a front wheel drive I did had to remove plenty of stuff, plan is to have engine in top condition for future projects, do intend HHO gas powered project soon of a motor vehicle, maybe might use this engine, who knows.....

Previous HHO project was Gas Torch, Barbeque, before minor accident, ("nearly cooked myself")all ok to proceed soon.... do have a soft spot for engines but...................

[tehekho]

Yep.

Just ask for Applause stuff, it'll be easier, and probably cheaper too...

[MightyMouse]

You need to undestand that its essentially THE SAME ENGINE... all be it with a few minor changes.
So - Applause bits seals / gaskets etc etc will do just fine ( because they are the same..... ).

So use any HD manual / parts guide etc for the consumable part numbers. Anything odd don't even bother with Toyota/Daihatsu just get aftermarket.

[hannivers]

Is the DeTomaso sump any different from an Applause or Feroza? I can imagine them being a little different, being a FWD compared to a 4WD, but would really look forward to some replies on this issue. Maybe a Forum member who has fitted one of these engines into a Feroza will be able to tell me more about what they had to change. I managed to obtain the new seals & gaskets for Applause (Many thanks for the good advice & assistance everyone ) haven't removed sump yet, keen to hear more about possible differences, regards from Ran.

[tehekho]

Can't give you an answer on that one personally - do they look different?

Perhaps would make the most sense to just baffle the one you have and be done with it? Or just swap them over if you're more comfortable doing that...

[roza31]

On the topic of HD variants, just as a general question, is anyone familiar with the HD-EP? I think it might have been only for the Jap market Pyzar/Gran Move, just wondering what mods it had over the HD-E.

[tehekho]

Probably a different cam.

[hannivers]

Flywheel on DeTomaso is suited to a smaller clutch diameter than Feroza, possibly meant for Charade, so hope to use Feroza flywheel, is there some benefit in keeping the DeTomaso dizzy? Sump & oil pickup do look a bit different, will change sump etc. Read in some notes that there could be 2 different bolt patterns on housing, is that so? Look forward to any other comments & suggestions, regards from Ran

[tehekho]

I believe the Detomaso has one extra or one less bolt hole around where the bellhousing mates.

Will still mate up though, if you run into problems mating it up, I've had the alignment dowels stay in block and box before...

[MightyMouse]

If its a propper Detomaso then you need to use the dissy as the timing's done electronically ( knock sensor etc.... ) and of course you need to transplate the entire loom and ECU.

If its got a plain distributor then you've already lost about the only really usefull feature of the Detomaso motor for a Feroza.

Yes the charade clutch is smaller than the Feroza and flywheel lighter....... the extra flywheel mass is necessary IMO for a FWD but its obviously going to make the engine less "zippy" ( interesting choice of word for a Feroza.... ). Howver you can interchange Feroza a Charade clutches without issues and there are heavy duty replacments for Charades.....

[tehekho]

I Had my flywheel lightened to reduce weight in my charade, MM

[MightyMouse]

For a road car / track vehicle i do the same ( sometimes ) and it can produce a pleasing top end acceleration improvement. However it makes ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERWENCE to the engines available power at constant RPM.

Given that the use of a 4WD is significantly different from a track vehicle, flywheel lightening isn't going to produce any improvement in driveability - in fact just the opposite, especially with a low torque engine like the HD series.

[tehekho]

Wait wait - Maybe you meant 4WD instead of FWD in your prior post??

[MightyMouse]

Sorry old school - Four Wheel Drive.... front wheel drive is for childrens toys

[hannivers]

MM wrote: * If its a proper Detomaso then you need to use the dissy as the timing's done electronically ( knock sensor etc.... ) and of course you need to transplate the entire loom and ECU. If its got a plain distributor then you've already lost about the only really usefull feature of the Detomaso motor for a Feroza.*
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Please tell us more about DeTomaso transplant, most would have used old Dissy from Feroza, transplanting entire loom would be huge effort, I was going to install Feroza Cam to settle down Detom engine a bit, have now found My existing Feroza cam is stuffed. May have to install now using DeTom cam, Feroza ECU, Feroza existing loom, please go on to explain possible problems as obviously you have experience on this swap. Later on My old Feroza block will soon get 1.3L pistons, newly ground cam, and become a good project over Spring months. Wheras my Feroza must be kept going as everyday user. How do you imagine DeTomaso would perform in Feroza if I had to retain DeTom cam? ps: Had sensational support from forum members over past weeks, special thanks to everyone. Looking forward to your reply.... Ran