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I have a 040 intank pump on my 80 and i have now had two failures, the first pump lasted around 6 months and the second one lasted 3 trips!
they both died in the same way, its like the bearing in the pump is binding up.. it starts to get loud and pumps less and less until the motor is lucky to idle, but if u switch the ign off then back on it will come good for a few mins then do it again.. its a bit painful when u are 400k from home and have to switch the ign on and off while u are driving!
has anyone else had a similar problem?
I cant really think of any reason to cause this..
and i dont run my 80 low on fuel, and both times it has now happend, i have had over half a tank in it.
Could be due to volume vs pressure issues meaning the pump is having to flow too much volume and getting too hot in the process. Given this is not an isolated instance (ie more than one pump) I would be looking elsewhere for the real problem, notably at the fuel pressure regulator/return line making sure that is working properly rather than focusing on the pump.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
crankycruiser wrote:I have a 040 intank pump on my 80 and i have now had two failures, the first pump lasted around 6 months and the second one lasted 3 trips!
they both died in the same way, its like the bearing in the pump is binding up.. it starts to get loud and pumps less and less until the motor is lucky to idle, but if u switch the ign off then back on it will come good for a few mins then do it again.. its a bit painful when u are 400k from home and have to switch the ign on and off while u are driving!
has anyone else had a similar problem?
I cant really think of any reason to cause this..
and i dont run my 80 low on fuel, and both times it has now happend, i have had over half a tank in it.
I've had two bosch 040's go in the same way. Now using an MSD pump, noisy as fuck but still going after 12 months
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Roller Cell pumps will not tolerate running dry AT ALL..... they must be always immersed in fuel as its used to cool the motor and lubricate the pumping mechanism. So what your describing souds like the classic problem. The damage is cumulative unfortunately, every time they starve they get a little more damaged - until they lock up or won't start. IIRC early Comodores suffered this problem quite commonly.
If you look at any high G applications low pressure pumps in/at the tank feed a surge tank that is fitted with the HP pump(s), 4WD's aren't high G but angles can produce the same effect.
The turbine style pumps are much more tolerant of short duration fuel starvation, so short of fixing the actual problem might be worth considering.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
crankycruiser wrote:how much current do these little suckers draw?
from the relay on the loom i have used the original toyota wiring, am thinking it may not be big enough?
Your wiring wouldn't be the issue.
Could you source a Toyota fuel injected model pump and try that? As long as the delivery pressures are close to the same and the flow rate is comparable it may be the less troublesome solution, as I'm sure the Toyota ones would be made to run dry occasionally in "normal" use.
George Carlin, an American Comedian said; "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realise that half of them are stupider than that".
crankycruiser wrote:how much current do these little suckers draw?
from the relay on the loom i have used the original toyota wiring, am thinking it may not be big enough?
Your wiring wouldn't be the issue.
Could you source a Toyota fuel injected model pump and try that? As long as the delivery pressures are close to the same and the flow rate is comparable it may be the less troublesome solution, as I'm sure the Toyota ones would be made to run dry occasionally in "normal" use.
it had a toyota one in it, but its not big enough for the blower
crankycruiser wrote:how much current do these little suckers draw?
from the relay on the loom i have used the original toyota wiring, am thinking it may not be big enough?
Your wiring wouldn't be the issue.
Could you source a Toyota fuel injected model pump and try that? As long as the delivery pressures are close to the same and the flow rate is comparable it may be the less troublesome solution, as I'm sure the Toyota ones would be made to run dry occasionally in "normal" use.
it had a toyota one in it, but its not big enough for the blower
Put on a 044 external pump, a 2l surge tank and a carter low pressure/high volume pump from the fuel tank to the surge tank.
Poor fuel supply will cause the engine to detonate sooner than later and that will cost ya more $$$$$$$$$$$$ than a good fuel system.
GQ. Supercharged LSX 427, 500rwkw. camtech cam,90mm Holley Throttle Body. twin 4"exhaust, big fuel system, King bypass shocks and bumpstops.
The commodore boys use walbro intank pumps which I'm pretty sure they fit inside the commodore fuel pump casings and use the standard regulator (i think been awhile since I researched it). I never had much luck with the external 044 and they are noisy as all hell. Intank pumps are a much better solution and get rid of the middle man so to speak. You'll have to make sure the toyota pump can feed the surge tank and not run it dry when going full throttle for an extended amount of time too. Also some of the LS fuel mods they use twin intank pumps to keep the fuel up to the blown engine quietly and effiecently i'm not sure how many hp your pushing tho and if thats needed.
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You only need a small surge tank to make a world of difference, remember most of the fuel the hp pump sends to the engine comes back again.
I use a facet style of solid state pump to feed the surge tank, and a bosch 909 on the high pressure side. To be honest I think some people overestimate their needs a bit when they put in a monster like an 044.
well i put my std pump in this eve just so i can start it and move it around, and im thinking i may just put an intank Walbro in?
I also noticed that i had the 040 mounted very low to the bottom of the tank (around 10 - 15mm off the bottom) maybe caused a problem?
also can anyone tell me which line on an 80 is suppposed to be the return line.. as there is 2 other hoses hooked to the sender cradle... one of the pipes goes all the way to the bottom of the tank and sits inside the "surge" tank, and the other stops about 100mm from the top of the tank and looks as tho it would spray to the outside of the "surge tank".
So im thinking if i had the big one as my return line, as it returns fuel it would pump the fuel to the outside of the surge, and under high demands the in tank surge tank would not fill up quick enough thru the pissy little pipe that feeds it? and then running the pump dry?
as both times this has happend, about 2-3 hrs earlier I was fairly giving it some berries for prolonged periods.
Not sure what is standard on the 80 but in general yes, you want the fuel to return to the surge part of the tank so the fuel pump can pick it up again.
Some cars have a set-up you would find interesting, the pump is outside the tank and the return line feeds into a tee in the pipe between the tank and the pump. This highlights just how much the pump is meant to be "feeding itself".
If your fuel tank has a "surge" sort of area built into it then I would probably personally focus on getting the in-tank pump arrangement working optimally rather than messing with other set-ups. Off-hand I don't think being 10-15mm from the bottom of the tank is bad, on the contrary I think it is probably good.
chimpboy wrote:
Some cars have a set-up you would find interesting, the pump is outside the tank and the return line feeds into a tee in the pipe between the tank and the pump. This highlights just how much the pump is meant to be "feeding itself".
.
My only concern there is does the fuel start to heat up a bit under extreme load situations when it is basically just circulating through the pump circuit rather than returning to the tank to mix with the rest of the hopefully cool fuel. Or is this not really an issue.
Kitika wrote:10-15mm is heaps the stock commo pump only has about 6mm clearance from memory.
Hey man, i dont suppose u could have a look under ur bonnet and see which one is the return line for me? Im starting to wonder if i have it round the right way?
Is the pump submerged? Where is the intake? The bosch pumps are cooled by the fuel they pump but are susceptible to cavitation due to air and poor intakes. Id never use one inside a tank and prefer the walbro as a lift pump (the 255lph will feed surge tank for a blown LS1 so you wont have an issue with yours)
Here's mine. Intank is the walbro and these are twin 044's into a Magnafuel MP-9940-B reg.
Kitika wrote:10-15mm is heaps the stock commo pump only has about 6mm clearance from memory.
Hey man, i dont suppose u could have a look under ur bonnet and see which one is the return line for me? Im starting to wonder if i have it round the right way?
Mines different as it was a diesel and has a different tank setup. I have a little 5/16 return and a 1/4 intake but i'm running a separate surge tank as I didn't want to mess with the main tanks or run bosch pumps and haven't had an issue yet. If you can get the fuel to return into the surge tank that would be how it is supposed to be to stop it starving on angles and when under full throttle for extended periods. You won't have to worry about the fuel getting hot etc as it is in the tank and will just get mixed with cool fuel or evaporate and go through the carbon cannister and i'd say it is highly unlikely that it'd cavitiate in the fuel pump.
More Suzuki parts going to the big Suzuki Heaven in the sky!
I have been using a Walbro GSS-342 in my zook to feed my 20v 4AGE motor. It was brand new and after about 5 trips it started playing up...same symptoms as yours, wouldn't supply enough fuel under load over 3000rpm. After talking with Mighty Mouse it was decided the original vitara pump would be a better option due to being a turbine style pump. I swapped it back in and haven't had any major issues after a few solid thrashings in the thick mud. I would say though at the top end under load I reckon it still isn't getting enough fuel as it won't bounce off the rev limiter under full load like it did in the early days of the Walbro which was a 500hp flow in tank pump.
I'd be careful/wary of using a walbro in a 4wd application. with the problems you've already faced I'd look at a turbine pump.
A colleague of mine runs a 454 v8 with mercruiser fuel injection and NOS in his 45 and he just has the external VL commodore (044?) HP pumps in line with no surge tank and no lifter pump in the tank. He reckons it works really well sucking straight from the tank...The engine is off its tits...will lay down lines on the blacktop with 38.5" boggers....
dank wrote:he just has the external VL commodore (044?) HP pumps
070 I think (talking about the six cyl, the 8 was still a carby then???). The 070 is really common and seems to be up to the task of running even fairly beefy engines, despite this a lot of people seem to always look for something bigger.
The thing to watch though is that it goes to 3 bar/43 psi which is not enough for some EFI set-ups.
chimpboy wrote:The thing to watch though is that it goes to 3 bar/43 psi which is not enough for some EFI set-ups.
Won't the fuel reg restrict the flow to build the pressure up to the required level with the pump still forcing fuel into the rail?
The 070 is stated to operate at a pressure of 3 bar. So while it will surely still flow some fuel at slightly higher pressures the flow rate is unknown. And at some point it will not flow any more at all.
If you look here : http://forum.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtop ... 8&t=190444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; you'll see what I mean, basically the flow rate drops more and more as the fuel rail pressure increases. For example, look at the bench test for the 979. It's a 5-bar pump according to bosch, and the flow rate really drops off when the pressure gets over 5-and-a-bit bar.
I guess it doesn't mean it wouldn't work in practice up to a point but if you have (say) a 5-bar fuel rail pressure then you would be safer with a pump that bosch says is good for 5 bar rather than only 3 bar. I am really not sure what sort of fuel pressures the original question is about though!
Just use the 044 mate. It works on my blown LS1 Patrol, with 365rwkw and it is working for every one else that is using one on an LS1, no matter what vehicle its in.
Do some research on:
its a bit painful when u are 400k from home and have to switch the ign on and off while u are driving!
