More damn dumb ass noob brake problems. help me.

[thrashlux]

sending your truck to the "professionals" does not guarantee a professional job

i have never send any of my stuff to a "professionals" because they either stuffed it up or try and touch me up
i am not saying you guys are like that i have just had bad experiences
now i do stuff my self because i want a hi quality job

also there is nothing wrong with learning how to do a task
its what is gunna get u out of the poo in the bush because you will know how to do it your self


i dont think dude lux has done anything unsafe infact he is being cautious asking lots of questions and making sure his stuff is right before he goes driving it

i was always under the impression that this forum was for info to help each other thru stuff not to slag some one off who is not too proud to ask questions and be safe also having a go

[DUDELUX]

Thanks guys, I dont want to do anything unsafe, which is why I havent driven it yet. I do like to get in and have a go at jobs, (1) it saves me money, and (2) I like to learn how to do things myself for the reasons posted, ie; if in the bush and something happens, Im not totally screwed.
After all, we all had to learn the hard way how to fix things on our rigs.

Ive just had a good look under the lux, checking for any broken or cracked suspension bits. Everything seems fine, so that doesnt seem to be the cause of the rocking.

I did have a thought though.
Because I have fitted a larger diameter master cyl and booster, that would mean that theres more fluid being pushed through the system. Meaning more braking pressure going to the front and rear.
And if the rear drums still need to be done, would that be a likely cause??
Would the drums be unable to cope with the added braking power that has now come from the bigger master??

Does that even make sense??
I do want to go over the rear and do the axle seals/drums, etc, so maybe the problem lies somewhere in the drums???

[the gun]

There is a reason why you have to be a qualified electrician to work on 240 volts and the same should apply for brakes on a car. Will you remember how much money you saved by doing the job yourself when your handing over your insurance details to the other driver?
I'm not being critical directly to you dudelux but just generaly speaking.

Work must be a bit slow, aye?

I wonder if your will be so flipant when you or someone you know is involved in an accident with a car that has had substardard repairs

[drr]

Does it act the same if you just reef the handbrake on?
The backs may be getting more fluid than needed, you could try adjusting your load sensing proportioning valve, just make the adjustable connection shorter and retest. It may be better to test on a dirt road at low speed 'til you get the adjustment right, that way you can easily brake until either the front or rear locks up first.

Also adjust those rear brakes up and deglaze, clean and chamfer the shoes while your at it, could be causing the wobble.

[DUDELUX]

The handbrake doesnt work.
The LSPV is the standard yota unit, so Im unsure if there is any adjustment in there at all.
I know the druyms arent in the best condition, the tension springs are either missing or broken, and drums themselves look like they have seen better days.
I might just get some good second hand drums and put them on. And Ill do the rear seals/bearings while Im there.

Does that sound like a good idea??

[RAY185]

Dudelux, from what I've read so far, I think your best bet is to do the following if you're against enlisting professional help....for whatever reason.

1: Get your front discs machined, don't bother buffing them. If they are warped or rust pitted, only a disc machine will fix it. Before you do this, measure the thickness of the discs with some verniers and see if they are machinable (above minimum thickness - if you don't know what min thickness for them is, tell me what they are off and I will give you that info). Mobile machiners shouldn't charge you much more than about $70 to machine both of them on car - ring around. It is usually a pretty ordinary idea to buy second hand discs as you will rarely get a set that don't need to be machined first and by the time you add machining to the cost of the second hand discs you have usually easily bought a new set.

2: Put it all back together and see if your brake problem has improved.

3: Report back and then we can attack the rear brakes. Keep in mind, with poor/improperly adjusted rear brakes you will always get a very ordinary brake pedal feel so it's important to sort this eventually but.....small steps. Since you only experienced the "rocking back and forth" issue after messing with the front brakes/master swap your problem "should" be in the front (even though the way you keep describing this sounds like a supension issue).

[DUDELUX]

Ray, the discs are off an LN106 Lux.

As for the rocking, it wasnt doing it before the brakes/master and booster were fitted.

It rocks like a seesaw type rocking, forward and backward, its wierd.
Kinda hard to describe, but I know its not right.

Ill ring around some places and get prices for discs to be machined.

Where should I be looking at if its a suspension thing.
The suspension is still all factory, shackles, pins, hangers, springs, shocks are all yota fitted way back in 86.

Thanks for your help mate.

[RAY185]

Then they should have a minimum thickness of 19mm. Got verniers to measure with? Let me know what you get.

The rocking is very wierd. I'm assuming it's only happening when you come to a complete stop which would normally suggest that the shocks are completely rooted and the chassis is rocking over the axles (especially if they are original shocks ). Why it is only doing it now is the issue. Perhaps you are braking with more force now than before. Does it still do it when you try and slow to a complete stop more gradually? Like just creeping forward and applying the brakes gently till you completely stop?

[DUDELUX]

Unsure Ray, I havent felt completely confident putting it on the road to find out.
I did think about the fact that the amount of braking force would now be greater than before, having a larger diameter master and booster on it.

I want to replace the drums anyway, but Ill get the discs machined first, then go from there.

Thanks mate.

[pig 83]

If the wheeles arent moving and the car is rocking back and foward i would be 90% sure thats its not the brakes that it would have to be shocks . It is almost impossible for it to be anything else . Try chocking the wheels and push and pull on the bullbar and then let go and see if it keeps rocking , if it does its more than likely shocks and the reason u havent noticed before is because the old brakes didnt have the clamping pressure of the new ones that are now brining it to a sudden hault insted of a gradualy slowing then stoping . Hope that helps . cheers Brent .

[DUDELUX]

That makes sense.

[drr]

The adjustment for the LSPV is just the rod between the valve and diff housing, shorten the rod (it will make the valve think that there is less load on the back axle). I've seen these cause similar problems when lifts have been done and the extra height was overcompensated for in the adjustment. If the rear brakes are in poor condition, which it sounds like, this will amplify the problem as they will tend to grab rather than operate smoothly. Also make sure the diff housing isn't turning inside the U-bolts.

[DUDELUX]

There is only a body lift.
Springs and shocks are standard.

[oldmate]

or try and touch me up

Best to stay away from the Land Rover mechanics.

[drr]

There is only a body lift.
Springs and shocks are standard.

Yes, but the new larger master cylinder will have the same effect as adjusting that valve- more fluid going to the wheel cylinders than before. You need to counter this by adjusting the valve, simple job to see if it is the rear brakes causing the issue.

[pig 83]

[quote="DUDELUX"]The whole car rocks forward then back, a couple of times.
The brakes grab and STOP the car from moving anywhere, but this rocking is wierd.

Going by this statement it can not be the brakes at all , it can only be suspension related .

[RAY185]

The whole car rocks forward then back, a couple of times.
The brakes grab and STOP the car from moving anywhere, but this rocking is wierd.

Going by this statement it can not be the brakes at all , it can only be suspension related .

Yeah I agree but even with shitty original brakes he would have been able to pull up to a "complete" stop and if the shocks were that ratshit he would have experienced the problem then at least to a degree. Something doesn't add up but I have no idea what. Something locking/binding up hard? Is he standing on the brakes now as opposed to before? Way too many variables, and way too many second hand bits thrown at it.....sorry Dudelux, no offence but this is just how I'm seeing it.

Either way there are 2 definates;

1: Second hand rusty discs need to be machined.
2: 24 year old shocks need to be replaced.

The only thing that is not definate is wether any of these 2 things will actually fix your problem....

[drr]

The 'rocking' can be caused by the brake shoes grabbing rather than working smoothly. I've seen it before where the rocking is more of a forward and backwards rather than a up/down suspension type movement. That's what it sounds like he is trying to explain, why else would it feel 'weird' and why else would it only happen after he has replaced the master cylinder and booster?

[BadMav]

They are suggesting that the brakes are locking and the diff housing is rotating somewhat on the 'flex' of the 20yr old springs.

[DUDELUX]

The plan is to get the front disc machined tomorrow.
Then Ill start looking at replacing the drums. And playing with the LSPV.
Then, hopefully, it should be a bit better.
Shocks are already on the list of bits to get anyway.

[Sam.BMX]

just a thought dudelux,
when i bought my lux last year, we bought it unrego'd
when we took it in for a roadworthy at brisbane isuzu the results were we didnt have enough rear brakes and handbrake
we fixed this with brand new shoes and cylinders, and slightly adjusted the handbrake under the car
we didnt touch the drums at all, nor the LSPV (dont have any lift anyway) drove it around a carpark for a while (seeing as they're self adjusting)
and the next road worthy passed easily, so i was thinking maybe all you need for the rear are just some shiny new bits - im pretty sure it costed about $150 for shoes and cyls all up.

Sam

[DUDELUX]

Yeah Sam I have thought about that.
The discs could do with a good machining to get them into a great working surface, so Im planning on getting that done tomorrow.
The drums on the back, arent pretty, I took the covers off to clean out the mud/dirt recently, there were springs that were broken and missing, and the handbrake hasnt worked properly in a while.
They will be replaced soon as part of my brake upgrade.
I only have a 2inch body lift and am running 35s so minimal lift, but if I have to play with the LSPV, then I will, but as a last resort.
Ill see how it goes after the discs get done tomorrow.

[Kruzeruzer]

take it to a mekanic its time to turn the other cheek
Id rather look like a retard and ask the dumb questions so I can be at least a little bit prepared for the job Im about to tackle.
Im sure at some stage, we have all had to do a job weve never done before.

I didnt post these questions to be called a retard, I asked for help on how to fix a problem that has me baffled.
Hope this helps

[DUDELUX]

Whats your point mate??

[thrashlux]

take it to a mekanic its time to turn the other cheek
Id rather look like a retard and ask the dumb questions so I can be at least a little bit prepared for the job Im about to tackle.
Im sure at some stage, we have all had to do a job weve never done before.

I didnt post these questions to be called a retard, I asked for help on how to fix a problem that has me baffled.
Hope this helps

nup?

[MogLux]

It comes down to if you dont know what your doing with BRAKES and or STEERING take it to a quilified mechanic.....Dudelux this would have been sorted alone time ago if you just did this..... Im not having a go at you just offering my opion.... both and the gun and I have said this from the beginning (and we are also both mechanics and seen this first hand).
I understand the propose of doing it yourself (alot cheaper and wanting to get to know your car) but if you have played with brakes before dont stuff with them unless you have someone who knows what there doing with you.

[DUDELUX]

Thats good in theory, and I know what youre saying. So please dont think Im ungrateful for your help.
Id like to do as much as I can, for the reasons you said, saving money and learning how to do it.

Would it have been sorted if I had payed someone to fix it?? Most likely.
Would I have learnt anything?? No.

The discs ae getting machined today, then we will see how it is.

At least I am getting really good at pulling hubs/wheel bearings out and putting them back.

Thanks for your help everyone.

[904Runa]

As said before there's no guarantee that a qualified mechanic would be able to sort out the problem, particularly as a conversion's been done. There would be heaps of shops that would never have seen a conversion like this.

I got mine all replaced by a qualified mechanic, for the next week and a half it was back to them every 3rd day while they tried to work out why the rear brakes kept locking on. Turns out the shoes were not the correct fit and needed a very slight mod to allow for the self - adjuster hand brake thingy (every time the handbrake was used it would tighten the shoes up a bit more to the point where they eventually locked on permanently) even though they checked and rechecked the part no. with their supplier and their supplier was adamant that it was the right shoe.

All taking it to a mechanic does is allow you to shift your problem, liability and inconvenience onto them.

Besides, he's already rung a brake specialist and the guy didn't really have a fix for him.

[DUDELUX]

Exactly, plus, I wouldnt learn a thing sending it to shop.

The discs were machined today, came back looking very nice and shiny.
Put them on this arvo, and reversed out of the shed, pushed the brakes and the rocking motion was only just there, the brakes feel lots better.
So I went for a drive to the end of the street and back, I didnt go above 2nd gear, I didnt jump on the brakes to lock them up, I just slowed to a stop as I would normally, they didnt rock at all.
They feel very nice, and work excellently.

Im still going to replace the drums though, Ill probably use larger diameter drums from a later model IFS Lux.

Again, massive thankyou to all that provided help and advice, and to those that doubted me, I did it.

I will take it for a drive tomorrow around my suburb for a while to make sure they are good.

[Sam.BMX]

On ya mate
good luck with the rest of it!