td42 best turbo

[Dzltec]

The piston is still around somewhere, Ill have a look. You have to remember it was a n/a engine, looking for limits, I found them. If you could make a controller that used revs, boost and was controlled by afr I think that would be the best. i think 350rwhp is possible, I sure a pump can be made to go over 220cc of fuel delivery.


Andy

[CustomTurbos]

220cc, now thats entirely compound territory and that is way over 350whp on the right setups. 220cc @ 3000rpm on an ideal setup should do 400whp but needs 65+psi based on post intercooler temps of 70 deg C.

If rev limit is changed to 3500rpm then even higher is possible. Really though when getting up to that level, I really think a Dmax is a better solution. Still, if someone could design a sub 3K compound setup for a TD42 or 1H series engine, might be worth considering.

I cant get my head around 220cc, hard enough burning 140cc with correct AFR.....

Machine thicker shaft GT28 turbine (so the shaft doesnt snap), machine to increase turbine trim and fit it in a GT23V series with a 400cfm compressor, feed with a 1100CFM turbo at PR 2 taht doesnt develop efficient boost until the vnt is at ~ 85% of its peak flow, start VNT with 2.5 PR, ramp down to 0.8 PR, set max overall boost to 4 PR and there you go, you have a VNT spool, compound setup that isnt too hard to control with well over 1000nm.....

Now someone build it ;-)

[UGOTNUFN]

220cc, now thats entirely compound territory and that is way over 350whp on the right setups. 220cc @ 3000rpm on an ideal setup should do 400whp but needs 65+psi based on post intercooler temps of 70 deg C.

If rev limit is changed to 3500rpm then even higher is possible. Really though when getting up to that level, I really think a Dmax is a better solution. Still, if someone could design a sub 3K compound setup for a TD42 or 1H series engine, might be worth considering.

I cant get my head around 220cc, hard enough burning 140cc with correct AFR.....

Machine thicker shaft GT28 turbine (so the shaft doesnt snap), machine to increase turbine trim and fit it in a GT23V series with a 400cfm compressor, feed with a 1100CFM turbo at PR 2 taht doesnt develop efficient boost until the vnt is at ~ 85% of its peak flow, start VNT with 2.5 PR, ramp down to 0.8 PR, set max overall boost to 4 PR and there you go, you have a VNT spool, compound setup that isnt too hard to control with well over 1000nm.....

Now someone build it ;-)

220CC of fuel will be very hard turn in a IDI engine, as we have seen and experienced first hand we are happy at 140 CC ramping up to 166CC then to 185CC at 2400 pump speed, we have revised governed rpm a little lower to allow for better EGT control at high sustained engine RPM for the long course but still give a very long torque band for throtle work.

Even with some special work on the precom chambers as we have explored now i am struggling to work out how we can get a really nice flame front across the piston and burn all the charge. After pulling the engine down to revise a few things , i must say that the condition of the engine was awsome, some small ring burnishes but it could all go again . This engine saw pyros of 800 plus for 10-15 minutes at a time and i believe we now have the combo to make sustainable power and torque without torching the engine.

When ceramic coating is done to the extent that we have done ,measurable pyro temps are a total guess compared to a non-coated engine as we now have very little heat soak into cooling systems and various other area's that would previously have absorbed some of the measurable pyro's. HAving said that we believe that we are seeing another 60 degrees of measurable pyro that would not normally see.

At 42 PSI pre intercooler temps are around the 220C so to find a turbo combo that will produce 55-65 Psi and have similar charge air temps will be the struggle.

BAck to the VNT i say

[CustomTurbos]

Very true, the ceramics should help the pyrometer be more accurate but less comparable to historic data. Also bring boost on better.

VNT with billet comp wheel hmmmm

[Northside 4x4]

The best thing to base the VNT setups on is RPM and Exhaust backpressure pre turbine.
Thats how most of the best oem cars are setup, as well as reading a map sensor as a boost target and trim indicator.

Boy you guys sure do talk alot of boost to make these power levels. IIRC on heath's truck we only ran 25psi to make 276hp at the rears. And that was a FAT power curve, not a peaky race spec thing,
I Know i have a printed power and torque graph, but not sure if the boost and afr graphs would still be in the dyno after this long.

You guys really need to get these trucks on the dyno occasionally so we can all see some of these numbers.

GTXX/XX billet setup with custom housings on order for a comp truck we will be building soon to. Should be a really good benchmark against the old school 28/60/71/76 and other setups people have tried.

[Dzltec]

Northside, you didn't mention that heath had one of the best intercoolers going around then, an "are" unit. Im sure that helps with running lower boost, you have more air density.

I would be very interested in seeing the graphs the 276hp vehicle, if you want to share them that is.

Andy

[Northside 4x4]

Northside, you didn't mention that heath had one of the best intercoolers going around then, an "are" unit. Im sure that helps with running lower boost, you have more air density.

I would be very interested in seeing the graphs the 276hp vehicle, if you want to share them that is.

Andy

You know i love sharing graphs with everyone Andy
The intercooler was pretty good I guess. Inlet manifold design was the main factor in the power though as just about nobody else had an intake manifold like his.
The highest graph I will have to dig out of the dyno if its still there.
Below is the only one I have on my pc to link.

[uzdnabuzd]

northside, How many cc's of fuel was heaths truck burning?? What gear ratio and tyre size when run on the dyno?

Cheers

[Northside 4x4]

northside, How many cc's of fuel was heaths truck burning?? What gear ratio and tyre size when run on the dyno?

Cheers

Dont know how many cc's sorry. Gear ratio was standard high range 4th gear and 35's. It came in with a few different configurations over the years though.
I will ask him next time I see him if he recalls exactly what the setup was on the highest run.
I also believe it made the same power at cruiser park the next day infront of a big crowd.
All the other '250hp' cars made about 200hp.

[UGOTNUFN]

The best thing to base the VNT setups on is RPM and Exhaust backpressure pre turbine.
Thats how most of the best oem cars are setup, as well as reading a map sensor as a boost target and trim indicator.

Boy you guys sure do talk alot of boost to make these power levels. IIRC on heath's truck we only ran 25psi to make 276hp at the rears. And that was a FAT power curve, not a peaky race spec thing,
I Know i have a printed power and torque graph, but not sure if the boost and afr graphs would still be in the dyno after this long.

You guys really need to get these trucks on the dyno occasionally so we can all see some of these numbers.

GTXX/XX billet setup with custom housings on order for a comp truck we will be building soon to. Should be a really good benchmark against the old school 28/60/71/76 and other setups people have tried.

As for the boost to make power, the only reason the boost is that high is for sustained load and EGT management, anything over about 32 pound makes no difference to power. Now if you made that power on only 25 PSi of boost i would suggest it was a big lasy turbo with a big compressor end delivering a lot of CFM for given boost.

The vnt did exactly the same thing at about 25 PSi due to its ability to deliver a better flow.

[CustomTurbos]

Actually I wasnt sure how OEM's did it. I went back to turbo theory, imagined I was a turbocharger lol and decided I would prefer a map of A/R against rpm with boost feedback. Which is why my system failed with the rpm pickup interference.....

But, that is easy enough to solve now.

As for the 250hp TD42 graph, thats peak torque at 2500rpm. This is good power and all and a great drive, but you want it by 2000 latest.

As UGOTNUFN said, the extra boost on the race truck is all about relaibility, not power. It basically has a big OEM style tune with great AFR, not a dyno queen tune that melts or cracks pistons on sustained power runs. The VNT could achieve a better result at lower boost due to better IMP/EMP ratio.

[quote="UGOTNUFN"][quote="Northside 4x4"]The best thing to base the VNT setups on is RPM and Exhaust backpressure pre turbine.
Thats how most of the best oem cars are setup, as well as reading a map sensor as a boost target and trim indicator.

[heathgu]

Lets see some dyno graphs boys.

We can talk all day but lets see data of what you are all talking about???

This was back in 2005 as it says on the graph, what has 5 years of r&d bought us?

This was a stock long motor TD42T with BB Turbo, Custom Exhaust manifold, ARE water air intercooler/intake plennum, head work. Everything else was stock.

So list what you have done to your td42 and some dyno graphs so the avarage punter can see whats happening.

Cheers Heath

[CustomTurbos]

My guess for your specs on fuel boost and turbo is as follows:

GT3071r 56 Trim, 0.64 housing

140cc @ 3600rpm

17:1 AFR

Lets see some dyno graphs boys.

We can talk all day but lets see data of what you are all talking about???

This was back in 2005 as it says on the graph, what has 5 years of r&d bought us?

This was a stock long motor TD42T with BB Turbo, Custom Exhaust manifold, ARE water air intercooler/intake plennum, head work. Everything else was stock.

So list what you have done to your td42 and some dyno graphs so the avarage punter can see whats happening.

Cheers Heath

[heathgu]

Mate i couldnt tell you, when it did let go in 2006. I sold or gave away everything td42 related and i have not touched a td42 since.

I could maybe fine out but i would need to make some calls. Didnt know anyone modded td42 for power anymore . Just joking.

[CustomTurbos]

OK so it died? I guess once you find the limits you move on. And CR stroker V8's, now thats moving on. Maybe a project I will embark on in the future. I nearly put a 6spd DMAX stocker in my Lexus instead of the FTE. I figured in the end the FTE would have been easier. About 80% of the way through I wasnt so sure lol! In hindsight, it would have been a fair bit easier than a DMAX - zero fab except engine mounts, and even those I cut off the half cut.

Mate i couldnt tell you, when it did let go in 2006. I sold or gave away everything td42 related and i have not touched a td42 since.

I could maybe fine out but i would need to make some calls. Didnt know anyone modded td42 for power anymore . Just joking.

[CustomTurbos]

VIDEO - 277.3HP at wheels on chunky tyres taken over a year ago.

....to follow on weekend - I will load up to youtube.

As said before its the 3000rpm (3200rpm actually) run, fixed rpm running the VNT. More runs were done 2000, 2500 and 3500) and even though the pump was good for 4500, this was new territory on many levels and there was a feeling that we dont want to break something....

Video taken first from rear from idle and once sitting there at full power (at least 10 seconds at full) I walk around to the operator.

Best I can do, but a video showing exhaust is better than a dyno curve on a graph.

[Dzltec]

Yeh, Im happy to put up graphs, always have. I'll put the highest td42 we have had here, just did a chev duramax today 230rwk, will do my own as well.

Ill put them up monday.

Andy

[moddedgu]

Lets see some dyno graphs boys.

We can talk all day but lets see data of what you are all talking about???

This was back in 2005 as it says on the graph, what has 5 years of r&d bought us?

This was a stock long motor TD42T with BB Turbo, Custom Exhaust manifold, ARE water air intercooler/intake plennum, head work. Everything else was stock.

So list what you have done to your td42 and some dyno graphs so the avarage punter can see whats happening.

Cheers Heath

Great idea Heath,
For those of us that are still playing with TD42's lets see the graphs and the gear used to achieve the results (without trade secrets) but surely things like manifolds, both exhaust and inlet types, Turbo spec's, air intake types and intercoolers types.
You guys that are old hands at this can share valuable information. and also provide some input on this subject. I'm especially keen to know what differences the old silver top had compared to the say TD42T motor as far as internal hardware goes anyway.

David

[Northside 4x4]

I didnt remember to go through the dyno to dig up more of Heath's old power graphs today, But I will try to tomorrow.

Peak torque at 2000 is perfect for most applications as I already agreed earlier, but those other 10% that I spoke of, having peak torque at 2500 isnt all that bad for off road comp trucks.

I agree with Heath, bring on the dyno graphs.
Cheers
Lindsay

[moddedgu]

Lets see some dyno graphs boys.

We can talk all day but lets see data of what you are all talking about???

This was back in 2005 as it says on the graph, what has 5 years of r&d bought us?

This was a stock long motor TD42T with BB Turbo, Custom Exhaust manifold, ARE water air intercooler/intake plennum, head work. Everything else was stock.

So list what you have done to your td42 and some dyno graphs so the avarage punter can see whats happening.

Cheers Heath

I noticed there was no mention about the key element..... The Turbo Charger characteristics!!!!

David

[CustomTurbos]

HERE IT IS

207 KW @ Tyres, and not smooth 31" either


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7ucm8LU-Hk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jrh86]

Hey guys been reading all your posts its good info but I just wanted to know what you all recomend as im sure others would too want to know a list of parts and also mods 4 the best way to get 180 hp to 200hp at the wheels with out buying stuff that wont work and wasting money not including dyno work of corse just a good starting basis

[Northside 4x4]

Where does it say the power? All i saw was 81 or something up in the top left corner at 2350rpm?

David - The graph I posted up a bit earlier is heath's old motor on the dyno @ ~250hp. So the turbo characteristics on his vehicle were full boost at around 2400rpm. Which suited his application, although probably not the best suited for most others out there.

JRH - 180 is a walk in the park on a TD42T, all it requires is a fantastic intercooler, good little turbo that is matched to make a maximum of about 200hp at the wheels and you will have one hell of a torque monster.
Oh, by the way a factory setup GU turbo pump will supply more than enough fuel for 200hp at the wheels.

[CustomTurbos]

[quote="Northside 4x4"]Where does it say the power? All i saw was 81 or something up in the top left corner at 2350rpm?

The only value to be watched on that monitor was the post air temps - 81 dec C (~35-38psi). The figure was read off the monitor and relayed to the dyno operator verbally - you can hear it. It wasnt for publication, so there no intent or reason to have any smoke and mirrors here. The 2350 or so rpm was supposed to be rpm but the pickup off one of the injectors was playing up (I think it had been dropped), so we ignored it. I went back afterward, filtered out the high frequency and ran FFT analysis to get the pulse frequency of exhaust; turned out it was 3200rpm, not 3000rpm on the video run. Anyone can do this of the soundtrack from the vid.

The monitor in the distance which was not able to be seen in the video due to focus had the wheel power on it.

We did runs at the following rpms that day:

2000rpm - 151 rwkW 32psi
2500rpm - 177 rwkW
3200rpm - 207 rwkW 35psi
3500rpm - 217 rwkW

I did back calculate the theoretical flywheel power/torque to what I believe is a high degree of accuracy. I back check/calculate everything and the numbers add up - all of them. I will have to check my notes, but I "think" it was around the 850-900nm mark @ 2K.

I had theorised that it would work down to 1850rpm before surge. I was very happy with the 2000rpm results in particular. It was the first time I had been involved with someone else building my brainstorm, so I wasnt even sure at the time that the numbers were all that great especially hearing all the huge numbers from over in the east. I dont think we ever checked it at 1800 at full power, maybe we did I really can remember. I know at the time that the dyno operator, who is very experienced, said that at 85cc off boost fuel, it made more power than they had ever seen with that amount of fuel. 90kw @ 2000rpm rings a bell, but the only numbers I wrote down were those above (for me to go away and brainstorm enhancements).

Those were the actual at wheel values done the same way as in the vid. If anyone chooses to diss them because its more than what they got or there isnt a smooth graph with lots of lines, then whatever, they can bury their head in the sand that makes up their reality if it makes them happy - as they say, ignorance is bliss. I would like to see 207rwkW at 25psi on a WG turbo and check exhaust opacity - wont be as clean as that vid. That engine also wasnt in great shape having injested a bellyfull of gravelly/muddy water is the last race. It was later pulled down and some of the valves seats were damaged, bore damage etc. It was also before any porting at all - the engine was absolutely bone stock from Nissan (TD42Ti) without port matching, coatings etc. Now it has all that.

This dyno currently is inertia in full rpm range power run mode so all we can do is fixed rpm runs on the retarder. It wasnt a clients car, it was a development car, a family member in fact. We were setting up the VNT and checking simply what boost was optimum to burn the fuel. It was an R&D excercise.

You have already said that intertia dynoes are rubbish for turbo diesels, it is very true.

[Northside 4x4]

I hear what your saying, and im not 'dissing' any figures you put up. I have no reason to, to be honest.

I do find it hard to believe these figures, as i have tuned more patrols than I would ever care to count and not seen anything like it in the past.
BUT! That doesnt mean its impossible, but a Wastegated turbo and a VNT turbo are not that different, Once the vanes are fully opened it has a fixed AR just like a WG turbo, so i fail to see the difference in that regard.

The comp side of a VNT turbo uses a basic garret Compressor dependent on the model... So it cant be more efficient. I have had quite a few garret VNT's rebuilt and the part number for the comp wheel is the same as a number of GTXXXX turbo's.
If it means anything, even if I run this car on the dyno I would still find the figures hard to believe lol. So dont take it the wrong way. But the figures you are getting are equal to a 6.6L Duramax on a mild tune with 25psi.

Or, for example. A multivalve 4.5L Twin Turbo V8 200series Makes 650NM standard. The full kit we do for them see's about a 35% gain. Thats not even 900nm crank torque at peak.

Can you explain one thing to me though. How do you come to your cc/1Kshots? Do you have the specs to which each pump is built? Or is it a calculation of some sort?

[jrh86]

northside: so with one of your intercooler/inlet manifolds
Good little turbo....? A garret 28/71 or similer or gu upgrade denco would acheve this
Thats prittu good bang 4 buck
And with a std turbo pump is it reliable running that much fuel allday everyday or does it have a short service life running this amount of fuel thanks

[CustomTurbos]

northside: so with one of your intercooler/inlet manifolds
Good little turbo....? A garret 28/71 or similer or gu upgrade denco would acheve this
Thats prittu good bang 4 buck
And with a std turbo pump is it reliable running that much fuel allday everyday or does it have a short service life running this amount of fuel thanks

There are quite a few turbos that will do this. History shows getting to the 150rwkw is reasonably easy to achieve. It certainly doesnt need a fancy manifold, but a good efficient turbo and half decent intercooler + ~ 20-25psi and 110cc @ 3000rpm is all that is required. I think 180hp @ wheels is a great figure for good performance and reliability. At that point you can use components that are not pushed to the edge.

The first pump on the TD42 in the vid (not what was on it in the vid) and a GT2860RS and eBay ater to air intercooler it made 201hp @ wheels on ~110cc. Peak flywheel torque came up to 580nm (115cc). These fuel values were measured because we needed to know, after deciding the power wasnt enough, what fuel made what torque and how the BSFC varied with rpm. So we knew where we needed to be for what we wanted to achieve. It drove really well above 2k. There is probably a decent dyno sheet for this one floating around, it was a while ago now.

[CustomTurbos]

I hear what your saying, and im not 'dissing' any figures you put up. I have no reason to, to be honest.

I do find it hard to believe these figures, as i have tuned more patrols than I would ever care to count and not seen anything like it in the past.
BUT! That doesnt mean its impossible, but a Wastegated turbo and a VNT turbo are not that different, Once the vanes are fully opened it has a fixed AR just like a WG turbo, so i fail to see the difference in that regard.

The comp side of a VNT turbo uses a basic garret Compressor dependent on the model... So it cant be more efficient. I have had quite a few garret VNT's rebuilt and the part number for the comp wheel is the same as a number of GTXXXX turbo's.
If it means anything, even if I run this car on the dyno I would still find the figures hard to believe lol. So dont take it the wrong way. But the figures you are getting are equal to a 6.6L Duramax on a mild tune with 25psi.

Or, for example. A multivalve 4.5L Twin Turbo V8 200series Makes 650NM standard. The full kit we do for them see's about a 35% gain. Thats not even 900nm crank torque at peak.

Can you explain one thing to me though. How do you come to your cc/1Kshots? Do you have the specs to which each pump is built? Or is it a calculation of some sort?

Fair enough. I came from a different perspective in getting into all of this. I researched BSFC curves for IDI diesels and DI diesels and CR DI and PD DI to try and gain an understanding of the various technologies. This is what I spent most of my time on. I looked at a heap of dyno curves for typical 31-33" tyres to try and develop a "fixed and variable" formula to approximate the losses (this is the only fluffy bit, but it works well). I work as an engineer, so I have a passion to absolutely understand whats going on the best I can. So, after gathering as much data as I could, getting post test measured pump cc data after removing it from a dynoed engine, I was able to develop a model to anticipate performance and design from. The model has actually proved to be very accurate. To be honest, I went to the dyno that day just hoping everything I calculated was correct. My goals were quite lofty, but I didnt know any better - I thought it was "normal". People over east seemed to be saying every second person had a 200rwkw TD42....I was just happy that we managed what you guys were "all" doing. Seems these engines didnt last long, smoked like heck and owners complained about them. Not what I'm after. Anyway, the results are what they are. But as to why......

The reason for the power is simply a little higher efficiency due to reduced pumping losses. The VNT is a big one, its good for every bit of 350rwhp on an IDI with 20:1 AFR. So, its vanes are not fully open at 3K or 3.5K. With a big turbine exducer and 0.9 max A/R, neither should they be!. As a result, the emp may even have been LOWER than imp if not near equal, there was still room. Yes, it has a GT comp wheel and it's a small trim, so not massively efficient (it good though), but it has a very wide map. The lower efficiency is more than made up for by vastly more efficient turbine not having to waste a thing....

And its not all about turbos, the injection company tried to implement a strategy to flatten the torque curve, or at least augment it somewhat. They achieved it masterfully. I dont know of a better matched pump for cc vs rpm. The benefit of it has still not been fully utilised as only a VNT will be able to cope with it and it was taken off before its time. There was more fuel to burn!

As for nearly a stock Dmax, well, so it should be. But, the Dmax would be at a much higher AFR and a wee bit safer ;-)

As for the last question; I had all the pump flow data when setting up the turbo, I always request it because it is essential when doing a "design". I am a figures junkie, its all about numbers, theory must equal practice and if it doesnt, I must understand why. It's almost a disease actually. I developed a tuning theory for the VNT that neccesitated knowing what the off boost max fuel was at selected rpm points and what the maximium fuel with boost was at those points. Based on previous research, from the cc's and rpm and air temps and desired AFR and I get the corrected boost, flywheel hp/tq and wheel hp. The latter is open to more variation but I can say that pretty much every time the dyno does what the sheet spits out. I model quite alot of diesel engines, it works pretty well in all cases. As a result, now when I see data, like torque curve, I can back calculate and get a fair idea on what the fueling is and from the smoke, the AFR and therefore boost, approximately.

So thats my long story anyway. Hope to get the VNT back on some day...... meanwhile I do high flow small vnts for the D4D's (VD and KD) and high flow CT26's...... I don't typically even work on TD42's...........

[Northside 4x4]

JRH86 - Yeah one of the denco recores would do the job As far as turbo charging goes I would say.
We have had a number of trucks making the 200hp mark for quite along time now, and none of them have ever had problems with their pumps.
So I would say it doesnt adversely effect them at all mate.

Cheers for that reply Dieslex. I would be interested to see the final result of the of the VNT testing on the TD42 if you ever get it sorted out.
Never really dug to deeply with the BSFC and other data on diesels to be honest. I do use it a bit to determine base fuel maps when tuning high output petrols though. Saves alot of time jotting down a base fuel map before the car is even started.

[5inchgq]

I'm a total noob as far as turbos and the go but what would something like this be like on a TD42 with a slightly modded pump.


S13 Red-Top T25:
Compressor: T-25, 60 trim 56mm 0.60 A/R BCI-1 compressor.
Turbine: T-25, 62 trim 53.8mm 0.64 A/R turbine housing.
Stock Boost: 7 psi
Safe Boost: > 13-15 psi After that The Turbo is past it's efficiency
Max Boost: 17 psi
HP Ratings: 240 - 250 RWHP
Type of Bearings: Journal Bearing


Cheers,

Dan.