95 sierra V6 and Lux Diffs

[whitey86]

Hey Guys
I have read the whole sierra bible and it didnt realy answer all my questions.
I currently have a 95 sierra with 2" lift and 30" maxxis bighorns
I have just bought a complete vs comodore with wich i intend to put the ecotec into the zuk and then put lux diffs under it.
what i want to know is has anybody done this conversion without going wild with it. I want it to be good offroad but not a totall cop magnet i.e no more than 2" higher than it sits now and i will only be running 31" tyres , i just want it to be unbreakable and able to do a bit of touring yet still able to mix it with the bigger trucks and handle the tougher tracks .
I have done the lux diff conversion before ( never got running ) so i know how much work is involved , if anybody has this conversion and can give me some advice on what to do or what you would do instead would be good.
Also please do not post if you want to tell me im doing wrong thing just straight tech talk no bull Sh#t
Thanx

[VR Rodeo]

Before all the idiots abuse you for even considering it have a read through this thread

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic ... +commodore" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its not a commonly accepted option and you will get very little help with it on the net.

[zook4fun]

its been done quite a few times but most people on here hate anything thats not suzuki engine

to help with the balance of the car your need to move your diff forward by about 4 inches or more. check out some of the us sites, they have quite a few using the buick (vn to vr) v6.

also have you talked to a engineer yet? if you want to rego it i'd do that even before you pop the bonnet to look at it

[whitey86]

thanx guys
I think i might jut have to do it and then see how it all goes , i will keep this post going and put up a proper topic about this subject

[Mitchie]

hey mate what transfer case are you thinking of running?

[Gwagensteve]

And now comes an idiot:

I'm not going to admonish you for the choice of engine, that's been well enough covered in previous threads.

I am going to question whether it's possible to build a lux diffed V6 engined sierra without "going wild with it"

Keeping a handle on lift height is going to be hard. Diff to sump clearance is going to be very tight. Note that most/all of the big diff, V6 engined cars have had the front axle pushed well forward and run coil or SPOA to gain room. Remember that hiluxes running commodore V6's are SPOA stock and have J arm steering, not crossover. I'm aware of a Hilux V6 conversions where running high steer caused massive clearance problems.

I assume your sierra is SWB? Again, room gets very tight if you want to keep the wheelbase close to stock. One of the reasons is that I'm going to assume you plan was to use the T700 auto and a hilux transfer which will end up a fairly long combination Note that the hilux transfer rear output is on the crank centreline, not dropped and offset like a sierra transfer. The result is a critically short rear driveshaft with much higher angle than your current driveshaft.

I'll agree that the torque of the V6 would make for a pleasant touring vehicle on paper, I think that the overall outcome of a low, 31" tyred, hilux diffed sierra won't really justify the effort. If 31" tyres are the maximum you are aiming for, I think a drivable, durable car can be built without needing to do all that work.

Just because you have a motor and some diffs doesn't necessarily make them good for your application.

Just my 2C.

Steve.

[whitey86]

"I'm aware of a Hilux V6 conversions where running high steer caused massive clearance problems. "

why state this as its about a lux , as i said in my first post i didnt need people telling me that a v6 is a bad idea.
As for why well i have a V6 , lux diffs are cheap (for me) and i have way too much money to play with.

Also i intend to do a spoa but when i say mild not wild i mean leafs all round no body lift no four link set up just a simple spoa with standard hight springs and 31" tyres , just because it doesnt seem to have been done on a mild status doesnt mean it cant be done.

[whitey86]

hey mate what transfer case are you thinking of running?

I intened to use the auto out of the commodore bak up to a hilux tranfer case using a marks adaptor
As for drive line im just goin to run with the lux LSD to start with before i consider lockers

[grimbo]

Swb or Lwb?

Have you compared weights of the Sierra stuff and the new stuff? Sierras react badly to excessive weight in the wrong places so you will need to play around with adding, moving weight around to get a good balance happening. Chassis strength can be an issue. Steering will be a bit if a problem with the diff having to be moved forward and trying to mate it all up to the Hilux diff.

Of course it can all be done, but all to often it is slapped together. I have seen a few of the US ones done by Lightning Cinversions and they were of varying quality and successes. The ones that had really been thought out worked very well, the others tended to fall over and get stuck alot, mainly due to having major weight issues.

Hope you can do a good job and get it to work for you

[Gwagensteve]

Six posts in and the build plan is already changing - the SPOA changes things a fair bit. For all the work that's going to go into this car, you'll need to do lots of research into what's legal. I believe it's extremely difficult to get a SPOA engineered in WA now. Alien might not be on here much anymore, - check auszookers - but there's HEAPS of tech into about the hoops he had to jump through to engineer a SPOA in WA, and the last comment I heard from him about it was that the approval process is even harder now.

I don't think you're going to drive a V6 engined SPOA hilux diffed sierra around for long without it attracting attention, 31's or not - probably best to do it legally.

I'm going to assume your SWB. I reckon the T700 is a great way to go, but the marks kit is $900 and from memory is quite long. You are really going to have to work hard to get a rear driveshaft to function. I've seen one SWB with a T700/hilux case and the rear driveshaft angle was FRIGHTENING, and very short, and I really don't think up to long term reliability at the angles it was running. SPOA is going to make that an even bigger problem due to the axlewrap is tends to introduce. Again, Alien had some Caltracs made that he swears by. They were quite expensive ($1500?) but I think they would be totally mandatory if you are trying to launch 300Nm on the road with an auto without going to links.

You'll have to look hard at cooling. It least one of the well built V6 cars had a rear mount radiator to get enough surface area into the car. V6 commodore motors aren't very thermally efficient and you'll struggle to fit enough radiator in the front of the car. There's no room for an engine fan at all IIRC. Holden V6 powered hiluxes are enormously hard to keep cool, especially once you add a transmission oil cooler in front of the radiator.

As you don't want a body lift, you'll need to cut the trans tunnel a fair bit. AW-4 autos into sierras require a pretty large floor cut, the T700 and hilux will be a fair bit bigger, especially between the seats where a sierra tunnel is quite low. The rake of the engine(tipping the rear output of the transfer down to aid rear driveshaft angle) might help a bit though, but obviously the raises the front of the motor creating its own clearance problems and also hurts front driveshaft angles - not a problem in a "comp" type car, by could create issues if you're running in high range for extended periods as I'd expect of a tourer.

In any case, is what your trying possible? Maybe. Is it going to be very hard? for sure. Just because you want something really badly doesn't mean it can be achieved. I'm guessing that some of the previous V6 engined builds started out like your plan but just kept getting bigger and bigger because of clearances and performance - you know how it is, fix problem A and it leads to problem B and problem C gets worse and you end up with links in the rear and hilux springs up front to stop it bending springs, and 110" of wheelbase for driveline angles, with a ute chop to clear the rear mounted radiator, and a body lift so the transmission sump clears the floor, and no heater because you've set the motor back so the crank clears the drag link at full compression and it's pretty loud and vibrates so you chuck some 35's on it and run some comps because you can't cruise it on road any more because it's cop bait....

Please don't think I'm being a hater, I'm not. There's only been a few of these builds but they've either not lasted long or been massive reconstructions of the car - amazingly impressive, but massive nonetheless. I guess it's hard to see the point to massively reconstruct a car to run 31's and do what a sierra with a efi 1.6 would do for one tenth of the work. Remember I never said the V6 was a bad idea

Steve.

[V.W.Dave]

As most would know I flipped around and tosses back and forth between 5 or 6 different engines for my build up. The V6 was my first thought and to start with was my first choice. Every one shot me down over the idea. So I spent well over a week of nights reading over every single thread on a few different web sites. After reading about all the problem people had I still was not convinced so I tracked down some one in my area that had the V6 in there zook and drove it. (it was a 93 SWB spoa on lux diffs the front diff was about 2" forward and the rear was about 2" back power steer on 33s)
Honestly it had plenty of power and the extra weight in the front end made it handle better on road then I would have ever of thought. As soon as we got it on a dirt track it turned into a PIG. The front end with its extra weight would push the car around. I made for a very unpredictable truck. I think this was from a combination of lack of weight in the rear end and how short the wheel base was.
The last thing that turned me away from doing it was taking a look under his zook. The engine/Trans it self is not much longer then the G13/trans but it has to be mounted so far back to give room for the radiator it pushes EVERYTHING back. Even with a extra short jack shaft he had to move the transfer back a little. This caused some problems with the drive shaft angles and he said he would go through one of the Uni's about once every 2 months. This was also because of the extra power and he was still using suzuki drive shafts. If you put the marks plate in you will be stretching the wheel base to over 100" like gman said.
My sierra is 99" long and it would not fit in mine without a rear driveshaft that was under a 30cm long
All in all I think the V6 would be a great conversion for a LWB But with a hilux transfer behind a marks adapter. (But I would only do it if I had it all there for free)

After all the research and driving around looking at 5 or so different set ups the 3 best I found were.
CA18 with a CA20 auto behind it. (it was still on zook diffs)
22r with the lux box still behind it. ( on lux diffs)
G16b with the sierra 5 speed.

The G16 is by far the best all around and it has been done 10000000 times and there are a hundred of more people out there that can help you. There is even a guy on ebay now that you can send the wire harness to and he will splice it all into a stand alone harness for you. Mounting kits so they just bolt in.

If you really have your heart set on the V6 by all means go with it. It has been done and it will work but it will not be as cheap to get in as you think and will be a pig like every one will tell you.

The LUX diffs on the other hand wellllllll hahahahah there is a few debacles going on about that right now. If your in a SWB and you not going to use a center output transfer like a lux or vitara you will beed to look for a bundi rear diff for the offset diff so as that your drive shaft will not had to big of an angle on it.

[whitey86]

Firstly i NEVER stated i was not doing a SPOA READ THE BLOODY POST!!!
secondly everyone keeps talking about the cost , well i earn far more than most and dont give a rats of cost.
As for mods this is not by far my first attempt at modded vehiles , and ive done the whole lux diff swap before.
I am just trying to get a very solid daily that can still play rough , the reason for lux diffs is to add some width
If i ould find a LWB i would do it to that but there really rare in W.A.
I am going to do this anyway , i was just hoping for some advice wih i have got but some how people just cant get past the why or i wouldnt do it this way factor.

[troopy94]

I have a commo v6 powered sierra but it is a comp rig and not a daily but if you would like to check mine out to get an idea of clearances of drivetrain components and how tight a fit the v6 is then you are welcome to check my zook out and I'm in bunbury.

[grimbo]

There is heaps of good tech in this thread , lots of info of pitfalls you need to be aware of to make it work.
If you don't want any sort if constructive criticism that may include reasons of why your decision may not be the best idea then why are you on the Internet?

If you have the skills and cash to throw at and understand the factors that can make it turn into a pig of a vehicle then of course it has a chance if working, but if you stick your head in the sand and get all defensive if any one says anything bad about it, well you'll probably ignore the reasons given.

Good luck with it and let's hope a quality build happens that can make this conversion work well

[V.W.Dave]

If you have more money then most you would be able to find LWB. Hard to find means nothing to people that have more money then god. You could get one transported to WA from here. I know of a rolling chassis ( no motor no transfer) for $2000.




Just a thought.

[lump_a_charcoal]

Subscribed!

[whitey86]

There is heaps of good tech in this thread , lots of info of pitfalls you need to be aware of to make it work.
If you don't want any sort if constructive criticism that may include reasons of why your decision may not be the best idea then why are you on the Internet?

If you have the skills and cash to throw at and understand the factors that can make it turn into a pig of a vehicle then of course it has a chance if working, but if you stick your head in the sand and get all defensive if any one says anything bad about it, well you'll probably ignore the reasons given.

Good luck with it and let's hope a quality build happens that can make this conversion work well

Dont get me wrong Grimbo i am all for any hints of those little things you dont see until your into the build.
I just dont like people making staements about what i have said when they clearly have not read the post correctly.

Now from the post on this and other forums i have read , i plan on running either standard hight springs or the 2" lifeted ones i have but with a leaf removed , however i may have to change as to the V6 weight. What i want to avoid is ending up with a Zuk that looks like a total comp truck.

As for driveline angles if im not running masive lift that should reduce the angles abit and i will most likely have to run a small body lift just to aid in the trans gear clearances.

Also as i am only running 31" tyres this will reduce the torque load on things like uni joints and cv's so there for i should expect some form of longer life from these parts.

Please if anything in my post is completely wrong correct me , i am happy to criticisim , just not idiots thats all.

As for sorcing a LWB from eastern states , i dont have time i work away a lot and as i allready have a Zuk i dont see the point , if one is available in wa then i will grab it.

[whitey86]

Troopy 94 im guessing yours is the green one that was parked up at supercheap the other day , i was looking it over , i work away for long periods but when im back i might come have a better look.
Thanx

[Gwagensteve]

Stock springs or 2" springs with leaves pulled struggle to control axlewrap with a stock motor You'll destroy them with the torque and weight of the V6. I think you need to look at 60mm wide springs like hilux that will have some hope of withstanding the torque. Once again, look at Alien's build.

A flat SPOA is 5" of lift. That's a lot of lift when you are raising the transfer output about 6" and possibly even moving it back some over stock. You're going to need to look very hard at wheelbase. I'd start at around 100"

Yes, 31's will keep the load down on axles and CV"s. It does raise the question though of what the car is for though - I assume you are looking for highway cruising ability from the torque of the V6, because off road there's very little advantage (if any as per VW's comments) in the V6 over a smaller motor. I reckon you need to drive a V6 converted car like troopy94's and see whether it's going to give you the road manners you are looking for, because it's not going to drive like your car now put with more power, it's going to be a totally different kettle of fish.

Like I said, I think there's a reason these cars don't end up as touring cars.

Steve.

[whitey86]

wheel base is a consideration if need i can extened , i realise that there is a lot of work to be done and i am looking to build an allrounder , as for v6 well power and touque along with efficiency .

I am noot looking to go huge with lift but right now it sits about 2" higher than standard so 5" over standard is only 3" motre than now and i know how high they go as i have done the conversion before but just never got running rolling yes.

Because i am gonna run a lux Xfer case i dont have to worry about an offset centre of the diff so that will reduce some of the angle problems.

I know it will become bigger than i plan but not too much i hope

[Gwagensteve]

Set your wheelbase now, not later when you are forced into it. You're going to need some stretch, so pick your number and build to it rather than build the car and then have to hack into it to make it work. You'll be far happier in the long run with more wheelbase.

The diff offset with the hilux case isn't the issue, it's the fact the rear output is at the crank centreline, not dropped like in a sierra case. For reference, run a tape measure from the diff to the centre of the input on the back of the case (the centre of the little square) That's what the "new" driveshaft angle will be with stock wheelbase. Add 3" of lift to that. Now consider that the new height isn't fully drooped, so add, say 4" of droop. Now consider axlewrap. The angles that tiny rear driveshaft will see will be huge. That's why I'm suggesting setting a realistic wheelbase now rather than build it and have all the dramas later.

Steve.

[V.W.Dave]

Set your wheelbase now, not later when you are forced into it. You're going to need some stretch, so pick your number and build to it rather than build the car and then have to hack into it to make it work. You'll be far happier in the long run with more wheelbase.

The diff offset with the hilux case isn't the issue, it's the fact the rear output is at the crank centreline, not dropped like in a sierra case. For reference, run a tape measure from the diff to the centre of the input on the back of the case (the centre of the little square) That's what the "new" driveshaft angle will be with stock wheelbase. Add 3" of lift to that. Now consider that the new height isn't fully drooped, so add, say 4" of droop. Now consider axlewrap. The angles that tiny rear driveshaft will see will be huge. That's why I'm suggesting setting a realistic wheelbase now rather than build it and have all the dramas later.

Steve.

If your going to run the V6 I would leave the diffs and wheel base till after it is in. My reason behind it is you can get the motor in and then you know how much room you need. With the motor/trans and transfer in you will know exactly how much room you will need for the driveshaft and the extra room needed for the larger diff input.
Everything else Gman has said is spot on.
The zook springs WILL NOT handle the axel wrap. I also know taking leafs out is a common thing to make them flex more but make sure you leave the load leaf in. I would look at puting hilux springs all around. The extra weight will help make the fron end flex as well.
Gman is correct once again about hte wheel base needing to start at around 100" as I said mine is 99" and with the commy engine in I was going to have a 11" long rear driveshaft that included the Uni's .

Keeping it on 31s and all the weight in the front end your going to be able to do some mad burnouts

If your keeping stock gearing in the diffs (4.11) and lux transfer box I would be looking at going to 33s they will not look that big in a 100" wheelbase car and it will make the hole rig drive better. (Gearing wise) plus you wil have a better diff clearance when your offroad.

[Gwagensteve]

Don't get me wrong VW, I understand the stretch is part of the build. My point is only that the OP needs to know the wheelbase will have to stretch, so understand that there's a number to work with and plan the build around it, rather than build the car hoping to not have to stretch and then pulling it apart when it won't work, the sort of thing that often ends in " for sale... unfinished project"

I'd agree that 33's would make for a more balanced build.

Thing is though, we're now at 100" wheelbase (so a ute chop) , 33's, SPOA on hilux diffs and probably springs, a stretch in the front, a small BL for clearance, maybe a rear mounted radiator.... geez, it's a long way from a mild tourer, it's getting pretty close to a comp car wouldn't you say?

Steve.

[whitey86]

so if im goin to 100" than what is a swb standard i cant remember off top my head and not at home to check.
by going to 33" im starting to head towards comp truck wich is not what i want i think i will pull the body off mount the engine (dumby fit) and hek my angles with diffs dumby fitted.
If i need to extened wheel base then i will make new chassis and extend rear body work as i dont want a tray back , can some one tell me how long a LWB is ?

[Gwagensteve]

94" stock.

You could always do a stretch with what you have now and panel the sides in like this:



It would also allow some of the compromises of the sierra chassis ( like the taper) to be worked out.

There's lots of stretch builds on Pirate4X4.

I agree I don't like tray backs either, and I own 2!

Steve.

[whitey86]

yeah steve that is the sort of thing i was thinking if i was to strech it but with less Comp truck look

[johnsy86]

yeah steve that is the sort of thing i was thinking if i was to strech it but with less Comp truck look

your going lux diffs and commo v6 but dont want a comp truck sorry comp truck look lol i honestly do not see the point. and then to ask for advice and everyone gives u there advice which there advice all sounds good and even with some personal expeirience and with none of them really saying how stupid this all sounds and then for u to go and crack a tantrum saying your doing it anyways, why bother posting it up at all good luck with your build oh wait ill give my 2c worth, the best thing about a como v6 is that there cheap but with a guy like u with more cash than sense why not a new alloytec v6 if it must be a v6 at least get a lighter one

[troopy94]

Feel free to check out my rig and hopefuly it will give you some insight on what you are taking on and what steve is saying is good advice. Few people know that my zook was road driven as a swb car with the v6 and well to be blunt it was terrible on the road, the weight transfer with any sort of spirited acceleration was scary and that was with running nisssan patrol leaves in the front.

[whitey86]

yeah steve that is the sort of thing i was thinking if i was to strech it but with less Comp truck look

your going lux diffs and commo v6 but dont want a comp truck sorry comp truck look lol i honestly do not see the point. and then to ask for advice and everyone gives u there advice which there advice all sounds good and even with some personal expeirience and with none of them really saying how stupid this all sounds and then for u to go and crack a tantrum saying your doing it anyways, why bother posting it up at all good luck with your build oh wait ill give my 2c worth, the best thing about a como v6 is that there cheap but with a guy like u with more cash than sense why not a new alloytec v6 if it must be a v6 at least get a lighter one

To state i have more money than sense is personel , and i dont want to start that shit.
As for the alloytech well first marks adaptor dont have any adaptor in stock to mate it to Lux Xfer
the Vz wich came with the alloyteh run a body control module wich makes life a whole lot harder as i would then need to run 2 aftermarket computers one for the motor to eliminate the BCM and one to take care of the box , buy using a alloytech i make more work than the gains outway .

I only post on here beause i thought it was the pinacle of 4x4 tech , clearly i was wrong , there is some good advice however seems more bitches than anything.

Thanx to steve, Gwagen , 94troopy and grimbo u have helped
To Johnsy86 think before you post , just my 2C worth thats all

[johnsy86]

As for the alloytech well first marks adaptor dont have any adaptor in stock to mate it to Lux Xfer
the Vz wich came with the alloyteh run a body control module wich makes life a whole lot harder as i would then need to run 2 aftermarket computers one for the motor to eliminate the BCM and one to take care of the box , buy using a alloytech i make more work than the gains outway .

alloytecs came out with the 4l60e aswell