ZD30 or YD25 ECU

[KiwiBacon]

Hi Guys

Anyone here into tuning the ZD30 or YD25 with the Zexel ECU? I've found YD25 and YD22 ECU's are swappable and run fine, no pump coding or immobiliser hassles. In the future I'll be needing someone to do some chip surgery on them, minimum of reading/writing chips, possibly desoldering and soldering a socket to the ECU. Any recommendations?

[tweak'e]

the non-common rail engines ??

if so never seen anyone do it. last i heard was a crowd was looking at it but heard nothing since.
afaik they are not rewritable ecu's. no idea if you could find a blank chip, crack the coding on the ecu, mod the data then burn into the blank chip then solder it into the ecu. would be complicated. much easier to get an external tuning box.

btw when you swapped the ecu's did you make the ecu learn the pump ?

[KiwiBacon]

Yes VP44.
No coding from ECU to pump that I'm aware of, nothing to learn. The ECU sends injection quantity requests and the pump does what it can. I currently have the ECU from a 110kw motor driving a 55kw motor. It's obviously limiting fuel based on airflow, which I'm very happy with. Increase the airflow (aka turbo) and up to 110kw is available.

If they're not rewritable it's a case of removing the current chip and soldering in a socket to take one that is, I'm not expecting any encryption or coding, just a big binary file. Because it's all surface mount it's a case of finding an electronics workshop that can do it. The guys on chip-tuning have the process sorted for all the bosch/siemens/delphi ecus but I've heard nothing on Zexel. One guy was showing inside an RD28Ti Zexel ECU but the chip layout was nothing similar to the ECU's I have.

[KiwiBacon]

Here's an ECU very similar to the ones I have:

[tweak'e]

pumps have an ECU built into them. afaik the ECU reads the pumps ecu. there is a procedure to follow so it reads it when you fit new pumps etc as the ecu and pumps need to be matched. off the top of my head its something like leave the ignition on for 20 min when first installing.. i'll have to look up the manual about it.

[KiwiBacon]

What is the benefit of that? It works, it has run for more than 20 minutes since and there's no change in behaviour. I was surprised it worked, many are coded and won't work without dealer diagnostic intervention. Particularly the UK ones. I'm guessing the japanese don't have the same problems with car theft and conversion that the UK and europe has.

I've identified the chip inside these ECU's as a 68 pin EPROM. Now to find someone who can desolder, replace it with a socket and read/write to them. Of course I'm getting well ahead of myself here.

Current plans involve getting another Presage ecu as a spare to work on. The Presage ECU should be functionally the same as a 2wd D22 but for two differences.
1. VNT turbo control. This is why I specifically want the presage ECU
2. Torque limited to 280Nm to preserve the 4sp auto box. This is why I want to delve into the programming.

[tweak'e]

What is the benefit of that? It works, it has run for more than 20 minutes since and there's no change in behaviour.

don't know why. i was told by one mechanic that the injection specialist requests ecu as well as pump, something about matching them.

1. VNT turbo control. This is why I specifically want the presage ECU

would not bother. unless its MAP and MAF mapped (which i doubt) it causes more problems that its worth. just use mechanical (eg dawes valve) to control boost.

[KiwiBacon]

1. VNT turbo control. This is why I specifically want the presage ECU

would not bother. unless its MAP and MAF mapped (which i doubt) it causes more problems that its worth. just use mechanical (eg dawes valve) to control boost.

Dawes valves don't really control boost, they can only limit it to a max boost that it will try to run the whole time, trying to make a VNT turbo run like much like a wastegated one. The ECU with VNT control can request whatever boost it wants, I'm hoping to find the ecu map that controls it at some stage. Lowering boost at cruise gives you better fuel economy and is probably going to make the turbo last longer.
The YD25 D22's are supposed to have a boost (map) sensor, but I have yet to find the one in the presage. It appears to base everything off MAF, which is fine.

I have the Presage ECU in and working, the engine has wiring right up to the N75 valve that controls boost. It would be silly to bypass it.

[tweak'e]

problem is MAF only mapping is problematic which is what causes so many problems in the patrol. navaras are MAP mapped which is a lot more reliable.

[KiwiBacon]

Pretty much all turbo diesel cars run MAF's. What is the supposed problem with it?

[Northside 4x4]

I dont know if it would be cheaper, but it would definitely be alot easier.

Using a unichip, you can control the Maf signal, map signal, Pump Spill valve, VNT solenoid or Stepper motor, Injection Timing. And what ever other auxiliary items you would like such as water injection etc...

[KiwiBacon]

I dont know if it would be cheaper, but it would definitely be alot easier.

Using a unichip, you can control the Maf signal, map signal, Pump Spill valve, VNT solenoid or Stepper motor, Injection Timing. And what ever other auxiliary items you would like such as water injection etc...

Unichip as in interface box between the VP44 and the ECU?
All of the stuff on the unichip site is targetted at petrols, ain't going to help here. Do they have a diesel website?

[Northside 4x4]

No, but ask me the questions you would like answered and I will respond to them.
Petrol/Diesel/Alcohol/Motorbike/Supercar.... Doesnt matter that the engine is.
They are all run by an Electronic Control Unit, that uses sensors as an input, and either injectors or ignition or both as an output + the myriad of other things current ecu's control.
The unichip can take in any sensor and modify it before the ecu gets it, which alters what the standard ecu will do according to its fixed maps.
Or it can take over control of said output and drive it independently of the ecu.

Shoot away, and ill answer your questions.

[KiwiBacon]

Right now there are two methods to do what I plan to do.
1. Remap.
2. Interface box. This is a distant second as it costs more and can't do as much.

Have you got a VP44 interface box that can be fully remapped by me? I found a very good one out of europe, but the price was far beyond the current plan and it could only offer fuel quantity and timing control, they couldn't telll me the range available. No torque control, no smoke control or the many other variables that can be changed inside the ECU.

[tweak'e]

Pretty much all turbo diesel cars run MAF's. What is the supposed problem with it?

yeah but they run MAF only. MAF output changes with age, get dirty and generally go faulty including be slow to respond to air flow. later model engines use the MAP sensor as well and i presume use the MAP to compensate for the MAF readings.

[Northside 4x4]

Right now there are two methods to do what I plan to do.
1. Remap.
2. Interface box. This is a distant second as it costs more and can't do as much.

Have you got a VP44 interface box that can be fully remapped by me? I found a very good one out of europe, but the price was far beyond the current plan and it could only offer fuel quantity and timing control, they couldn't telll me the range available. No torque control, no smoke control or the many other variables that can be changed inside the ECU.

Well, Smoke and torque are both limited by fuel quantity and timing.. So any box that does timing and quantity is matching what the std ecu is doing,
The standard ecu uses a few things to determine this
Engine RPM
Engine Load via AFM
Engine Load via MAP
Engine Temperature
Throttle Postion

Unichip picks up all these inputs and gives you Tuning tables with RPM as a speed reference and MAP/MAF as a load reference.
After this, those tables can be modified multiple times via a separate boost, temp, egt, tps... basically what ever other input you want to be able to modify timing/quantity.

Most ECU's only use AFM as their input load reference. MAP is generally only used to control the VNT setup on some motor's as well as give an overboost warning to the ecu.

To have MAP as a load reference for the engine, it must have a temperature sensor somewhere inside the manifold (after the intercooler) to determine air density.

[KiwiBacon]

You're in petrol land. MAF and MAP for a diesel don't tell you anything about engine load. Especially with a variable vane turbo or no turbo.

Smoke isn't fuel quantity, it's max air/fuel ratio. The ECU can limit fuelling based on airflow so there's no smoke off-boost and EGT's are kept down as VE drops at higher rpm. Likewise for the ECU to predict what the torque is it has tables of basically how efficient the engine is at different speeds and loads. The torque control is about getting the best tune your clutch can handle.

I haven't seen a plug-in VP44 box yet that has an AFM plugin and I haven't seen one with torque control either. I found a unichip diesel page but it only had commonrail piggy back computers. No use to me sorry.

[Northside 4x4]

You're in petrol land. MAF and MAP for a diesel don't tell you anything about engine load. Especially with a variable vane turbo or no turbo.

Smoke isn't fuel quantity, it's max air/fuel ratio. The ECU can limit fuelling based on airflow so there's no smoke off-boost and EGT's are kept down as VE drops at higher rpm. Likewise for the ECU to predict what the torque is it has tables of basically how efficient the engine is at different speeds and loads. The torque control is about getting the best tune your clutch can handle.

I haven't seen a plug-in VP44 box yet that has an AFM plugin and I haven't seen one with torque control either. I found a unichip diesel page but it only had commonrail piggy back computers. No use to me sorry.

Considering I have been tuning diesels with this product since direct injection was around I beg to differ.

Maf is used as a load reference for a DI & CR diesel and is measured in grams/s . With no turbo, TPS is used as load source.
Air Fuel ratio is determined by fuel quantity, as for a given rpm and boost the engine VE will not change.
The motor doesnt increase boost or rpm to reduce smoke, it.... drops the amount of fuel injected.

You have been able to buy a plug in Dtonic (which is unichip) since the VP44 pump was released on the 3.0 Patrols years and years ago.
They stopped selling them I think 3 years ago now, we have been able to keep the rights to be able to fit unichip to diesel vehicles however.

You wont see a unichip with a Maf connector, because they dont connect to it at the MAF. The wire them or plug them in directly at the ecu.

Here is a unichip and harness for a 3L CR for example, so as you can see. We have access to any signal that is going into or out of the ecu.
So, you are able to change the AFR or timing at what ever rpm/load you would like and it simply makes the changes ontop of the standard ecu.
you dont loose your torque or any other tables that the std ecu uses you simply modify the signal coming/going to the ecu to make it change its strategy.

[KiwiBacon]

Considering I have been tuning diesels with this product since direct injection was around I beg to differ.

Maf is used as a load reference for a DI & CR diesel and is measured in grams/s . With no turbo, TPS is used as load source.

Airflow is not load reference for any diesel engine. Neither is throttle position. That's "drivers wish" or "torque request".
The grams/s is the mass flow of air, that has nothing to do with how much load a diesel is under.

Just consider some examples.
A non turbo diesel at 2000rpm will consume the same air producing max torque as it will clutched out. Load changing from 0-100% with no difference in airflow (same grams/s).
A turbo diesel running 15psi boost will consume about 60% more air on boost than off boost at the same rpm. Load changing from 0-100% and airflow can only change by 60% max.

Air Fuel ratio is determined by fuel quantity, as for a given rpm and boost the engine VE will not change.
The motor doesnt increase boost or rpm to reduce smoke, it.... drops the amount of fuel injected.

The ECU limits the fuel based on airflow readings and the maps stored in the ECU. Your piggy back chips have no access to these maps, sure you can get a signal from the MAF (where it plugs into the ECU), but without calibration tables those signals aren't going to give you any accurate readings.

You have been able to buy a plug in Dtonic (which is unichip) since the VP44 pump was released on the 3.0 Patrols years and years ago.
They stopped selling them I think 3 years ago now, we have been able to keep the rights to be able to fit unichip to diesel vehicles however.

So you don't have anything suitable?

[Northside 4x4]

Why do you need to know the scaling of the maf though? You use a dyno and meter the AFR and torque and tune the vehicle as you want it. The actual voltage doesnt matter, the end result is you want more or less fuel, more or less boost, more or less timing. You are after a way to alter what the ecu is doing, you can reflash it, or change the incoming and outgoing signals. It achieves Exactly the same end result.

Apart from that piggybacks kill reflashing for a number of reasons.
I can sit the motor at 2200rpm and 20% throttle/load for example and map that site's timing and AFR figure.
then I can sit at 2200rpm and 30% throttle/load
2200rpm - 50%, 60% etc...
2300rpm, 10, 20, 30, 40%etc...

Because air flow through a motor is not linear with RPM

With a reflash your forced to guess the figures, stop the car flash them in, run it up to these points and check it. Stop and reflash again if incorrest.
All the stopping and starting messes with the repeatability of the results at each load point to.

If you dont believe air flow is the main load source for almost all new diesel engines, unplug it and see how the car drives (if it even starts).
But... Seeing as your trying to tell me air flow means nothing to a Modern diesel and its not used as the load reference.. What is then?

[KiwiBacon]

If you dont believe air flow is the main load source for almost all new diesel engines, unplug it and see how the car drives (if it even starts).

Been there, done that. The engine goes into limp mode, displays a CEL and gives you the power of a non turbo diesel. However, unplugging it doesn't show it's a load source at all, it just shows it's a signal the computer considers vital. Which it is. Without an airflow signal the computer can't determine how much fuel can be cleanly and safely burnt.

But... Seeing as your trying to tell me air flow means nothing to a Modern diesel and its not used as the load reference.. What is then?

Misquote much?
I didn't say "airflow means nothing", I said it cannot be used to calculate engine load. Because it can't. You're lacking knowledge of basic diesel operation if you think load can be calculated by airflow. If you think it can, feel free to provide some references to backup your claims. Otherwise I suggest you quietly leave this thread, take your marketing attempts elsewhere as you can't provide any help and are actively lowering peoples opinions of you.

[Northside 4x4]

If you dont believe air flow is the main load source for almost all new diesel engines, unplug it and see how the car drives (if it even starts).

Been there, done that. The engine goes into limp mode, displays a CEL and gives you the power of a non turbo diesel. However, unplugging it doesn't show it's a load source at all, it just shows it's a signal the computer considers vital. Which it is. Without an airflow signal the computer can't determine how much fuel can be cleanly and safely burnt.

But... Seeing as your trying to tell me air flow means nothing to a Modern diesel and its not used as the load reference.. What is then?

Misquote much?
I didn't say "airflow means nothing", I said it cannot be used to calculate engine load. Because it can't. You're lacking knowledge of basic diesel operation if you think load can be calculated by airflow. If you think it can, feel free to provide some references to backup your claims. Otherwise I suggest you quietly leave this thread, take your marketing attempts elsewhere as you can't provide any help and are actively lowering peoples opinions of you.

Ah ha, there. As I have highlighted, is exactly what im trying to say.
It uses it to determine how much fuel can be burnt, that is its load source.

I believe you are misunderstanding the basic reference's that are used in any kind of tuning. Load is a reference, used to determine how much air the engine is ingesting.
Im not saying airflow is the load the engine is under. Its the LOAD source input to the ecu, which then delivers the fuel which actually gives the engine more torque.
So realistically I think what your trying to say or what you mean by load is torque output of the motor? Measured only by a dyno.

We either arent on the same page or we have vastly different views on the subject for some reason, however neither is reason enough to ask me to leave the topic when I came into it with a solution to your problem.

If you want references, then ok give me a bit and ill post up a few pics of the data you are talking about in a diesel ECU that clearly states g/rev as the load source for the tables.

[Northside 4x4]

Couple of pics as promised.
Just a few maps out of one of the diesel roms im working on at the moment.
As you can see there are multiple load inputs. TPS/Gear/Atmospheric pressure.... But speed input is always the same, RPM.
This is the only map I am working on at home at the moment, so I cant post up any more than that just now.
Thats 5 maps out of about 190 total for engine control....
Companies spend millions setting altitude/fuel temp/vehicle speed/air temp/water temp corrections on the motor. Why would you want to change any of these maps?
All you'r really after is the ability to change base fueling, and let the standard ecu continue to compensate for the other variables. Unichip can do this, thats why I suggested it as an option.

[KiwiBacon]

Ah ha, there. As I have highlighted, is exactly what im trying to say.
It uses it to determine how much fuel can be burnt, that is its load source.

No, it's simply another input. Load is how much is demanded from the engine. In a petrol engine airflow and load are closely related, you can use airflow to determine load. But diesels are unthrottled, they always ingest as much air as they can regardless of the load applied.

I believe you are misunderstanding the basic reference's that are used in any kind of tuning. Load is a reference, used to determine how much air the engine is ingesting.

Load is a calculated result, an output. It's not an input or a reference and it's not airflow.

If you want references, then ok give me a bit and ill post up a few pics of the data you are talking about in a diesel ECU that clearly states g/rev as the load source for the tables.

Still waiting for these references, you know, external sources to back up your claims. The axis on your maps aren't readable.

Companies spend millions setting altitude/fuel temp/vehicle speed/air temp/water temp corrections on the motor. Why would you want to change any of these maps?
All you'r really after is the ability to change base fueling, and let the standard ecu continue to compensate for the other variables. Unichip can do this, thats why I suggested it as an option.

Because it's a different application with different hardware. The major change being the gearbox in the new application can take more than the 280Nm the map was written for. I need to change more than base fueling, piggyback chips of any brand cannot do what I need and won't be able to compete on price either.

[Northside 4x4]

The axis on the maps are in huge red writing. RPM, Accelerator Position, Atmospheric Pressure, Injection Quantity.
Have fun getting the remapping done, I yield to your arrogance finally.

[KiwiBacon]

The titles of the X and Y axis is the only part readable in your graphs. The x & y axis values are too fuzzy to read and units are missing. The Z axis has no title and no units.

The answer to my original question "is there anyone tuning these?" would be "no". Just people trying to sell an expensive solution to give an inferior result.

Since this thread is unlikely to get any useful replies, here's a pretty picture. Turns out it's not just 4wd's that have "anti-stall".
Z axis is torque, units Nm (it's the limiter graph).
X axis is rpm.
Y axis is state, all 3 states are the same.

[sswaffie]

could this be taken as start fuel ? just a bit hard to read rpm.
Is this a Map from the engine ecu or from the VP44?

[KiwiBacon]

could this be taken as start fuel ? just a bit hard to read rpm.
Is this a Map from the engine ecu or from the VP44?

The torque levels in this graph are a bit higher than the engine would be producing stock. It's only below idle and at the end of the rev-range where it's likely to be working. This map is from the ECU of a euro almera, I need to buy a spare ECU before I pull the chips off mine and read it. Just in case.

There is a start-fuel vs temp map in there somewhere. There's a bit of sleuthing required to find which map is which, but I take a range of -40 to +90 as being a good indication it's coolant temperature. Have a look at this one:

[sswaffie]

Very interesting, its cool that you have maps from the ecu's . i believe the
yanks have over size plungers etc for the 6 cyl version but not sure for the 4
cyl , then you would have to write your own fuel maps that would be pretty
cool as there is only so much the fuel solenoid on these thing can do before
having problems , we dyno'd a zd30 the other day and the bloke that owns it
is quite switched on and has a shit load of data logging on it awsome to see
it roll off 190 odd HP with only running relitivly low boost and 430 degree
pre turbo egt's , oh and a bit of gas but not much

[KiwiBacon]

The big question I have at the moment is how much fuel can I get from a VP44 pump?
I have a YD25 pump coming, I suspect the ZD30 won't be any bigger but if I can get to around 400Nm I'll be stoked, finding a compact turbo capable of 30psi is something else. Was that a commonrail or VP pump ZD30?