after market common rail diesel ecu

[offroader-rama]

i am looking for any info on any body who is very savi on common rail diesel ecu of the were abouts of a after market stand alone ecu engine mazda bt50 / ford ranger 2.5ltr i am needing it for a engine transplant.

[Northside 4x4]

Bosch make a replacement ecu.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/ ... l/3690.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not sure what brand of injectors the Mazda's run however.

[offroader-rama]

Thanks for the link
I
looked at the link and its says 8 or 12 cylinders do you know much about these boosh ecu's or any thing else that may help my project?

[Northside 4x4]

Well, I dont know anything about your project yet So I cant really be of much assistance sorry.

Fill me in with some details and ill see what I can dig up for you.

[offroader-rama]

I have a 2.5ltr turbo diesel from a 08 bt50. I have removed the harness and ecu but it requires the coded key / barrel, body moulator etc... there is so much crap on the harness that i have been told it needs to work that it will defeat useing it for what i want it for. so I am chasing a stand alone set up so as I can take advantage of the currant efi common rail tech diesel but with some simplicty and room to change tuned for things like more boost, exhaust intake snorkle etc with out it going into limp mode and freaking out!!

I have looked some piggy back set ups but most have some draw backs and arent cheap and adding that on top of what its going to cost me to set up what i allready have to make it run maybe more than and stand alone system if one is a vailable.

Q. whats it going into
A. top secret for now

what else would you like to know.

[oozuk]

Have you tried asking a Mazda dealer if the security can be disabled in the ecu as to run stand alone ?

[Northside 4x4]

Ok well there is few ecu's out there that can run the engine.
Bosch Motorsport ECU, up to 6 solenoid injectors $4000, + $1K install and around $2K tuning (conservative figures)
Bosch Motorsport ECU, up to 6 PiezoElectric injectors $8060 + Install & Tuning
Im unsure if the 08 BT50 motor has solenoid operated injectors or piezo operated injectors, this will dictate which ecu's can operate the system.

There are other driver systems out there that can do the job, but still require input from a very accurate crank angle sensor which is normally delivered from the std ecu anyway.

I realise it must be a hassle having the transponder key etc.. Unfortunately this is the way vehicles are heading currently, and the aftermarket sectors are to far behind to provide ecu's that run such complex injection systems (bosch make OEM injection systems, so they are not classed as the aftermarket sector).
Motec are the only ones who have committed to try and their best projection of if/when/how much is "If we can, when its done and lots."

Im not sure of the quotes you have for a factory loom + piggyback, but it surely must be less than the 6K+ your looking for the only other known system that will run it.

[jbell]

I was looking to get a late mod. efi diesel for my project but these $$ quoted are way over budget
I was hoping to use the lux D4D but I assume similar issues ???


Jeff

[Northside 4x4]

Jeff, it normally isnt a big problem.
If you buy the loom and motor together it will work just fine.
Generally how it works is the key has a coded transponder in it, there is a reader back to the BCM that says yes or no to the code.
So either you can pull the key apart and just stick the transponder next to the receiver when doing the install, then you can use any type of ignition barrel or starter switch.
Or with a full wiring diagram, most sparky's will be able to bypass the transponder signal lock out.
On canbus systems it gets more complicated however as the signal is sent in a completely different way, not just a voltage or earth activated switch.
All of these options would be far cheaper than a full aftermarket system

[offroader-rama]

Thanks northside4x4 for your imput those figures are why to high for this project !!

I have the harness well what I believed to be relivent to ecu. I did leave out key, responder etc , there were wires from these going to other elec units what they do ???? but still have excess to remaining harness for anything I left behind but the harness is huge and so wide spread through the cab !!! I have pulled many a commo v6 sr20det ca18det harness ecu etc and they have nothing on this mess, other than the plugs on engine it self the entire car harness had to be unravelled !!

who do you reaconmend as a sparky whom could be confident to help with out going at it as a trial and error process?

[KiwiBacon]

Isuzu do a commonrail 3 litre industrial engine. Is there any ford/mazda industrial version of yours?

[offroader-rama]

I have search the engine specs and what cars they come in etc, interesting one is a factory mazda 626 twin turbo in europe with 210 hp and over 500 pounds of touque thats was inspiring. as for industrial nothing as yet but will search industrial specific and see what comes up.

cheers

[KiwiBacon]

What is the engine model code?

[MightyMouse]

Don't underestimate the degree of complexity of programming a Bosch ECU... they are excellent units and if your a professional racer then all the sophistication they offer is well worth the work.

However they aren't jsut a series of maps as is common with many ECU's they use a programming system that is more mathematically based. You develop a "mathematical model" of the engine using all the correction factors etc and the ECU then does the rest. This is a VERY sophisticated concept and produces great results BUT you need to have a pretty detailed understanding of the engines behavior, and be prepared to learn the "language".

Also i'd say that there probably aren't many people with lots of experience with Bosch diesel Motorsport ECU's locally - so it could be a challenge.

Have you contacted MOTEC..... no idea if they do diesel but they make some VERY cool ECU's that are a bit more "normal". However no matter where you source a quality ECU its going to be expensive.

[offroader-rama]

From what I have learnt so far about the system I have I think it could make a trip to the moon, then make coffee after training someone to pick the beans first.

From where I stand the only way it will work is if use a complete harness and rewire the new donor shell from head lights to tail light, dash, central locking, key and barrel oh and twin airbags !!!!

This is by all means do able I will need a new harness though as I may have cut the last one up to much

But it defeats the the concept I am trying to acheive, I wanted to make it retro without all the bullsh!t but if the bullsh!t has to come with it then whats the point!!

I am waiting for a diesel ecu guru that i have made contact, to see if he can get a ecu diagram and programs out of ford to see if he can reprogram mine minus all the protection fault codes ??

He makes / sell piggy back modules that over ride engine protection allowing more fuel, boost,timeing advance etc. ( but car has to be running first )

But he has never looked into "in cab" protection has been very helpfull and seems committed to doing what he can.

will keep this updated if any progress!

or send it to for sale section lol

[offroader-rama]

as for engine code its a MZR-CD 2.5 L and no sign of a industrial version

[Northside 4x4]

From what I have learnt so far about the system I have I think it could make a trip to the moon, then make coffee after training someone to pick the beans first.

From where I stand the only way it will work is if use a complete harness and rewire the new donor shell from head lights to tail light, dash, central locking, key and barrel oh and twin airbags !!!!

This is by all means do able I will need a new harness though as I may have cut the last one up to much

But it defeats the the concept I am trying to acheive, I wanted to make it retro without all the bullsh!t but if the bullsh!t has to come with it then whats the point!!

I am waiting for a diesel ecu guru that i have made contact, to see if he can get a ecu diagram and programs out of ford to see if he can reprogram mine minus all the protection fault codes ??

He makes / sell piggy back modules that over ride engine protection allowing more fuel, boost,timeing advance etc. ( but car has to be running first )

But he has never looked into "in cab" protection has been very helpfull and seems committed to doing what he can.

will keep this updated if any progress!

or send it to for sale section lol

Have you simply tried rigging the engine up with the motor/ecu only connected?

I dont believe that the headlights and airbag system etc.. will make any difference to engine running conditions and they are infact controlled by a completely separate powertrain/body control module.
At worst it would bring up an airbag light on the dash, which is as simple as painting the facia black or isolating the power to the led and breaking the contact to it.

As the harness may have multiple wires running in a single piece of conduit, it may be necessary to untape the whole loom, remove un-necessary items such as headlights etc.... And then re-tape it.

Unichip or Xede piggybacks will do the job just fine for engine control once it is running however.

[-Scott-]

Slight hijack here.

I understand that common rail diesels run at monstrous pressure, and the injectors are quite hi-tech, but at the end of the day, the ECU (internally) can only switch a transistor. So, where's the catch? CPU in the ECU switches some form of transistor internally, probably multiple stages of driver circuit somewhere, then CRD injector fires. I guess that's a bit of a trick, but I don't understand what's insurmountable. Other than that, what do these diesels need to know that a (petrol) motorsport ECU can't do?

Not trying to be argumentative - curious to know what's different.

[Northside 4x4]

Slight hijack here.

I understand that common rail diesels run at monstrous pressure, and the injectors are quite hi-tech, but at the end of the day, the ECU (internally) can only switch a transistor. So, where's the catch? CPU in the ECU switches some form of transistor internally, probably multiple stages of driver circuit somewhere, then CRD injector fires. I guess that's a bit of a trick, but I don't understand what's insurmountable. Other than that, what do these diesels need to know that a (petrol) motorsport ECU can't do?

Not trying to be argumentative - curious to know what's different.

A really good example I have to explain it is the amount of data lookup tables in a diesel ecu.
I will take a Subaru diesel for example.
Hi Performance wrx Petrol around 2009-2010 has 180 reference maps stored in the ecu.
Diesel version of the same model has almost 800 reference maps.

The real trick to current diesels is the compensation tables.
Almost every possible environmental and vehicle variable has been accounted for, and each of these variables is defined in a map which the ecu check's before injecting the fuel quantity.

You may start with 19mm3 and after all the calculations have been done you may end up with a figure of 14.24mm3.

Add to this that its not all just squirted in one big shot either. Pre injection, Main injection x3, Post Injection.

Then it must check when is the best time to start injecting it based off current operating conditions etc...
So its all pretty basic stuff, its just done in a very complicated way.

[-Scott-]

Add to this that its not all just squirted in one big shot either. Pre injection, Main injection x3, Post Injection.

OK. I can accept that this alone would count out most "aftermarket" ECUs, designed to time one injection per cycle, and can run up to 80% duty cycle. Trying to time five pulses per cycle, and I'm guessing the duration of each would be considerably shorter, would require a higher level of computing power.

[KiwiBacon]

Slight hijack here.

I understand that common rail diesels run at monstrous pressure, and the injectors are quite hi-tech, but at the end of the day, the ECU (internally) can only switch a transistor. So, where's the catch? CPU in the ECU switches some form of transistor internally, probably multiple stages of driver circuit somewhere, then CRD injector fires. I guess that's a bit of a trick, but I don't understand what's insurmountable. Other than that, what do these diesels need to know that a (petrol) motorsport ECU can't do?

Not trying to be argumentative - curious to know what's different.

It's mainly the injection timing. Petrols just hold an injector open, diesels have to finely control up to five shots per cylinder fire. It'll only be a matter of time before we get lots of aftermarket diesel ECU's, sadly not yet.

800 maps? Where did you get that number from?

[MightyMouse]

They may be piezo injectors which require high voltage drive to make them work - not just plain switching ( which is also a largely superceded technique..... ).
Good luck... i think you'll need it to get it done at a reasonable price.

i'd still ask MOTEC.... nothing ventured.....

[chimpboy]

If I had to guess, I would guess that you are going to have more luck getting the stock ECU working than finding an aftermarket option at anywhere near a reasonable price.

I doubt you need the whole loom, but I think you might need to start with the whole loom (not installed in the vehicle, just hooked up) and work out what you can and can't cut off. Then when you have finished cutting off what you can, someone like the ecu guy you mentioned may be able to help you cut off a few more things as well.

Well you knew it was going to be hard before you started eh?

[Northside 4x4]

Slight hijack here.

I understand that common rail diesels run at monstrous pressure, and the injectors are quite hi-tech, but at the end of the day, the ECU (internally) can only switch a transistor. So, where's the catch? CPU in the ECU switches some form of transistor internally, probably multiple stages of driver circuit somewhere, then CRD injector fires. I guess that's a bit of a trick, but I don't understand what's insurmountable. Other than that, what do these diesels need to know that a (petrol) motorsport ECU can't do?

Not trying to be argumentative - curious to know what's different.

It's mainly the injection timing. Petrols just hold an injector open, diesels have to finely control up to five shots per cylinder fire. It'll only be a matter of time before we get lots of aftermarket diesel ECU's, sadly not yet.

800 maps? Where did you get that number from?

From the Rom file, Its around 750-770 in total.

[offroader-rama]

I have unravelled the whole loom and i disconected what I thought unnecersery how ever I have been told I need to rewire the clutch peddle sensor brake peddle sensor brake lights, even airbags !! (that will be fun lol) body module ingnition the fly by wire is activated via the peddles and runs a tbs type mudule also another peddle switch so I may as well graft the entire peddle rack!! all the gauges are run from the ecu and feed back to the ecu the speed sensor, revs, temp, voltage etc )i am even told indercators why I dont know??)

Without any of these, (I am lead to believe) it will go into limp mode !!! and with out some one with the know how before its started would spend weeks with a scan tool up its arse finding faults

I have rung ...................their responce

motec .........................not ready but coming time and price unknown
microtech .....................not interested to complicated
haltech ........................not interested to complicated
wolf ............................not interested to complicated
unichip ........................only do add ons to system
dp ..............................only do add ons to system
mazda .........................cant do it will never work!!!

and the list goes on

The only positive feed back is from morepower they are very informative and are following it through with what they can do from there end but no promises!! down side there in victoria , they have a fitter in qld but this is a little bewildering for him, but he is keen to do what he can under the mother company direction!

I think if someone did get a system out there, that comepared to motec, microtech etc $$$ etc, it would be a hot market, as you can get awsome power figure with awsome fuel economy.
Who doesnt want that

[Northside 4x4]

Well if these are things you have been told...
Are they a certainty? Has the person that gave you the info tried to run the motor without these things?

Pedalbox I can understand, as its FBW and incorporates redundancy systems etc..
Gauges? Doubtfull its necessary for engine operation but I could be wrong.
Indicators? Hmm unplug the indicator fuse on a BT50 or even unplug the light and the engine will continue to run without any problems.

The only way you will know beyond doubt is to rig the engine to a frame and wire it up with the basics. If it doesnt run, pull the code and find out why not.
It may require some rewiring, but nothing as extreme or expensive as a full aftermarket system.

If they are a CAN bus system, which I assume they would be for the most part. it may throw a CEL saying air bag's not functional, or Such and such control system not found. But in most cases these warnings dont initiate a limp home mode, only Log a DTC to figure out the problem.

[-Scott-]

mazda .........................cant do it will never work!!!

Don't ya hate the "experts" who clearly have no idea? Like the dealer service manager who told me that my car doesn't have an O2 sensor because the factory ECU threw an error code - a) it does that when the sensor is cold and b) look at the farkin' exhaust - it's that thing with the wires hanging from it just in front of the cat!

[Dzltec]

Get a wiring diagram before you do anymore. The next ranger or bt50 we have in I will look to see if things can be turned of by the Ford ids scan tool. Im sure there is a can bus system in there somewhere.

Diesel injectors generally work at 60-80 volts, 10-20 amps of current, injection intervals in the 400us range for pilot and pre injection. Yes it will be tricky, but not impossible.

I think they use a denso injector which means the bosch ecu may not work them.


Andy

[offroader-rama]

The only way you will know beyond doubt is to rig the engine to a frame and wire it up with the basics. If it doesnt run, pull the code and find out why not.
It may require some rewiring, but nothing as extreme or expensive as a full aftermarket system.

If they are a CAN bus system, which I assume they would be for the most part. it may throw a CEL saying air bag's not functional, or Such and such control system not found. But in most cases these warnings dont initiate a limp home mode, only Log a DTC to figure out the problem.

as it sits now its still bolted in the chassis rails for that very reason as I dont want to remove it before I know I can make it run.
my problems are.
1. from what I have been told it want happen as there is to much been cut from harness and if I was to try and solder it back together, the solder joint would mess with the resistance so as it wont work any way.
2. I dont want to burn something out or even set it on fire !!
3. I wont have a peddle rack or dash in this senario therefore imfored no point trying.
4. lets say I get it working, it runs but wont rev or over revs etc. or how would I know if it was in limp mode while its standing still idleing? what then I dont have a scan tool so who do I call mazda, ford ?? there not interested or going to come to me so then what put it on a trailer and take it were ? lets say I get some one saying yeah I have a scan tool bring it in @ $$$ per hour and we'll check it out to see it sit there for 5 days with someone scratching there head saying I dont understand it should work but id doesnt but you'll need to take out a second morgage for my time regardless!! now go home get a new harness then come back and see us !!

YES YES YES a little over dramatic I know , but I just want to spend in a forward motion, I dont have a money pitt. I am going out on a limb as I think it is a cool idea that will work extreamly well and if I can find some one I feel confident and commited enough to see it through with me I will do a build up thread and give them all they glory they deserve. wont I dont want is to spend a stupid amount of money till im exhusted and be the guy that tried to put a bt50 motor in a XXXXXXXX and failed!!


As it is at this point the only way I see around it is to buy enother cab with complete harness gauge cluster, ecu, key, body module, airbag module etc etc every thing other than doors and donk then transplant it all into new shell this would be a awsome project for a every day retro car / run around that was to be kept for years to come.

How ever my intention was to make this a stand alone system, as you can probably guess its going to go into a off road 4x4 project that may get rolled behond repair the first time out ( it better not!!! but could happen, has happen to me before) there for I would want it so as it could be tranfered to a new shell with out to much drama.

[offroader-rama]

Get a wiring diagram before you do anymore. The next ranger or bt50 we have in I will look to see if things can be turned of by the Ford ids scan tool. Im sure there is a can bus system in there somewhere.

Diesel injectors generally work at 60-80 volts, 10-20 amps of current, injection intervals in the 400us range for pilot and pre injection. Yes it will be tricky, but not impossible.

I think they use a denso injector which means the bosch ecu may not work them.


Andy

There a bosch ecu from factory if you didnt know? obviously not the same as the after market version but bosch non the less its stamped on the ecu. just saying thats all !!
I have 2 people trying to get me a wireing diagram from either ford or mazda not so easy to achieve!!
mazda tried to sell me a haynes manual they said it would all be in there. but my experience with the haynes and gregory manuals are very limited with the more finer details such as the ecu or even the harness in general.