4.2 Injector pump for Big HP

[CustomTurbos]

For Swaffi (apologies for sp) When you plot the BSFC that you SHOULD be getting with your TD42 in the high rpms, you quickly arrive at MUCH higher numbers than you are achieveing considering the 190cc of fuel. Rough figures here, because I am in a rush doing my day job ;-)

When looking at the boost being run it gives AFR approaching 14:1. The BSFC is out the window, far worse than a petrol engine in fact. At which point I fail to see the point of creating a hot smaokey exhaust water heater! I realise that is not the point of the discussion, merely achieving the power is, but I am very confident more power can be made with less fuel at more boost than you are running with greater reliability.

say 140-150cc and ~ 45 psi should do it

Vnt would be best (say GT37 style)

[sswaffie]

For Swaffi (apologies for sp) When you plot the BSFC that you SHOULD be getting with your TD42 in the high rpms, you quickly arrive at MUCH higher numbers than you are achieveing considering the 190cc of fuel. Rough figures here, because I am in a rush doing my day job ;-)

When looking at the boost being run it gives AFR approaching 14:1. The BSFC is out the window, far worse than a petrol engine in fact. At which point I fail to see the point of creating a hot smaokey exhaust water heater! I realise that is not the point of the discussion, merely achieving the power is, but I am very confident more power can be made with less fuel at more boost than you are running with greater reliability.

say 140-150cc and ~ 45 psi should do it

Vnt would be best (say GT37 style)

Thankyou for your input , i think people are getting misguided on fuel delivery i have approx 190cc's on 12sd12 test injectors wich oviously flow different of that the std TD42 injectors and lines, which the AFR that i am achieving back this therory up as loaded on a dyno at given HP the car is running 15.2:1 AFR yes hot but i look at it differently a diesel's MBT is Richer than this and i understand that they can not sustain this for long periods of time , on the other hand it is handy to have it when you need it in our style of racing (WHICH IS THE STYLE MICK IS LOOKING AT) People have trouble getting their head around that you CAN actually lift your foot off the accelerator to lean the engine out . I totally understand that more power can be made with less fuel and yes we are working on this , This is what we have currently and it works for us and we are looking at making it better but this comes (as you know ) with more time and money spent on R&D . I have currently out laid a substansial amount of money to LOG DATA and Refine what we do futher more . Our product is not purfect and i never said it was but it works and has proven to be relible over the last 2.5 years and be competetive !

I am not trying to defend our product as i have nothing to defend i value everyones input but ,all mick asked for was a dyno sheet to back up anyones claims , As i belive between kev (Vehicle Owner) and Mick (sponsor) are fed up with people leeding them astray when it comes to claiming their product does this and their product does that . The boys have seen us race and i supplied a dyno to back up our claim WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD . i have never stated that we are the benchmark and are humbled at the fact people may think this , there is always a better way to do something and there is never the purfect package .But we have a go

WE dont use this forum for intent of marketing as thats not how i run my business , it just amazes me that people always know better or would do things different without giving it a go (generally speaking) and if they do GOOD ON THEM I KNOW HOW HARD IT IS !

Mick sorry to hijack the thread , we supplied ,as you asked ,and so has andy
Thanks to Kiwibacon's Input and also DIESLEX( i know you guys understand the maths behind it all)

Regards
Shawn

[SuperiorEngineering]

The information coming out in the posts are great, and i do thank everyone for their input and time to put the posts up here.
Kev did mention he talked to Shaun a bit about Water/methanol as well as some guys in the states but i am still to find out the conclusion with that option, i think we are still waiting on our final quotes/ options and kev was getting his truck on a dyno on wed to see what hp it is producing at the moment.
Kev is estimating around 220 mark so it will be interesting to see what it has.
Mick

[KiwiBacon]

If you already have more fuel than you can burn, why add more in the form of water/meth? You'll make huge power gains just by having more air and burning the fuel you have cleanly. 45psi plus and you'll be away laughing.

[Northside 4x4]

If you already have more fuel than you can burn, why add more in the form of water/meth? You'll make huge power gains just by having more air and burning the fuel you have cleanly. 45psi plus and you'll be away laughing.

Well the point is to replace some of the diesel you would be burning with methanol instead, not add to it.
45Psi means nothing if the air coming into the motor is extremely hot...

Take WRC & ARC cars for example. I tune a number of them and almost all of the teams use water injection purely to lower intake and combustion temps due to the high boost they run.
The same applies for any diesel application. Even if you dont use Methanol in the setup, a properly setup WI kit will drop intake temps considerably which increases air density as you would know.
Methanol also has very high evaporative cooling properties and burns rather cool in comparison to say a Gas injection setup.

A decent kit isnt expensive in comparison to any of the other parts. Check out info for even a DIY kit http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

+ It does a fantastic job of keeping the engine internals clean from carbon buildup, which is a big problem on a smokey diesel.

[KiwiBacon]

Well the point is to replace some of the diesel you would be burning with methanol instead, not add to it.
45Psi means nothing if the air coming into the motor is extremely hot...

It doesn't matter how hot the intake air is. You can run 100psi with no intercooler and you're still gaining density. You want to fit 300kw of crap into a 100kw bag, you need a lot of boost.

Take WRC & ARC cars for example. I tune a number of them and almost all of the teams use water injection purely to lower intake and combustion temps due to the high boost they run.
The same applies for any diesel application. Even if you dont use Methanol in the setup, a properly setup WI kit will drop intake temps considerably which increases air density as you would know.
Methanol also has very high evaporative cooling properties and burns rather cool in comparison to say a Gas injection setup.

W/M injection for petrols is detonation suppression, it's effect on density is tiny. Diesels don't suffer det, except of course if you put fuel like methanol down the intake.

+ It does a fantastic job of keeping the engine internals clean from carbon buildup, which is a big problem on a smokey diesel.

The smoke is because there's not enough air, the cure is more boost. Deal with the problem, don't try to mask the symptoms.

[UGOTNUFN]

We are currently burning 140cc of fuel at 3000 rpm then ramping it up to 155cc at 4000 rpm and holding that till redline of 4700(currently). Using 42 pound of boost with charge air temps of 75 degrees max over a sustained load period, racing conditions) not dyno time! Egt's approach 850 degrees when full whole at very high road speeds .

Car is on 37 inch tyres with 4.1 ratios! I believe that the vnt was the best all round that we have seen and produced the best rwkw numbers on 35 inch mtz's. At the time we had minor control issues and decided to go back to a wastegated setup for reliability reasons as we had run out of r&d time before the event.

The setup needs to be 150cc with 42-45 pound of boost with a really good intercooler and max charge air temps of 80 degrees! A 6 core laminova will achieve this with a good size heat exchanger. Adding another fuel as in methanol when at such high cc delivery will mask egt's and poor intercooler performance only.

[Northside 4x4]

Im not saying not to run big boost, you are missing the simple point I have been trying to make.

Regardless of the boost, the cooler you can get the intake temp the denser the charge air is, regardless of weather it is 20psi or 100psi so im unsure as to why the point it being argued?
Boost doesnt burn fuel, oxygen does. It may pack the oxygen molecules in more tightly, but if there are less of them to pack in the benefit is negated.

If the solution is simply more boost, then the answer to the OP's situation is very simple
Compound turbo it and run 100psi of boost, forget intercooling and engine life and you might make the target power.

Or, do it properly. Take consideration as to how your going to get the air as cool as possible and use the least amount of boost to get your target power, rather than forgetting all the basics and just keep on cranking the boost up.

Yes W/I is used for anti det in petrols. It achieves this by massive cooling of the cylinder walls, valves and piston face on the intake stroke, as well as other chemical means as the water turns to steam. All of which are very big positives for ANY engine running any fuel. The charge density will go up according to the amount of cooling done, so saying its insignificant is kind of like saying a piece of string is this long.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/DIS_WP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good basic read on water/meth if anyone is interested in learning a little more about or doubting the benefits of it in diesel applications.

[Northside 4x4]

We are currently burning 140cc of fuel at 3000 rpm then ramping it up to 155cc at 4000 rpm and holding that till redline of 4700(currently). Using 42 pound of boost with charge air temps of 75 degrees max over a sustained load period, racing conditions) not dyno time! Egt's approach 850 degrees when full whole at very high road speeds .

Car is on 37 inch tyres with 4.1 ratios! I believe that the vnt was the best all round that we have seen and produced the best rwkw numbers on 35 inch mtz's. At the time we had minor control issues and decided to go back to a wastegated setup for reliability reasons as we had run out of r&d time before the event.

The setup needs to be 150cc with 42-45 pound of boost with a really good intercooler and max charge air temps of 80 degrees! A 6 core laminova will achieve this with a good size heat exchanger. Adding another fuel as in methanol when at such high cc delivery will mask egt's and poor intercooler performance only.

This is the reason people dont think it works.
It is not masking anything, how do you 'mask' egts? They are either lower or higher.

You tune the pump to suit, with thought of the additional fuel the water/meth setup will be providing, not just crank 150+cc then say oh well its got to much methanol in it.
The methanol can help to burn the diesel more completely, thus less is needed.
The type of intercooling it performs is called Chemical intercooling. In the same way injecting Nitrous Oxide reduces intake temp by a significant amount, so does water to a lesser extent.
It can certainly help a poor intercooler to perform better, it can also help a good intercooler perform better.
If your charge temps are 80deg, just think how beneficial it would be to your setup if they were 40degrees? Without adding any additional flow restriction to the air.

Banks dont even have to intercool their rail drag car as the amount of nitrous they run gets their temps below ambient anyway.

[SuperiorEngineering]

A question for those who would like to give me their opinion.
For running up around the 40-45 psi boost what is needed to be done to the bottom end of a 4.2td to have half a chance of keeping it together in the style of racing i have earlier mentioned, i am not talking about road driving, beach or towing - just coopers stadium style racing.

Please note i stated "half a chance" , i am not after a bullet proof engine that will go forever as most comp trucks dont last many seasons anyway, usually the trucks are stuffed or the teams retire/ sell there trucks from my experience in the racing industry .

And please keep the bagging down as i am sure there will be a few different opinions but i would like to know some thoughts .
Mick

[uzdnabuzd]

Bottom end is not going to be your problem with 45 psi. heat will. A td42ti bottom end with do just fine. We ran this boost for a 4 day event (Outback challenge stye) and on it for 30-40min at a time. Sustained egts for this time of 850-900c. We pulled the motor down after the comp to check it and try a different cam (what a waist of time). The bearings were like brand new!

You will need to modify the block coolant paths, the head coolant paths, port the head, ceramic coat everything, over bore the motor, change valve springs, coolant bypass rail, a huge cooling system, a huge engine oil cooler, a super efficent i/c, and a perfect matched turbo and pump.

The above will give it half a chance.......................But f me, whilst it's got half a chance the power is awesome


Cheers

[RD]

Bottom end is not going to be your problem with 45 psi. heat will. A td42ti bottom end with do just fine. We ran this boost for a 4 day event (Outback challenge stye) and on it for 30-40min at a time. Sustained egts for this time of 850-900c. We pulled the motor down after the comp to check it and try a different cam (what a waist of time). The bearings were like brand new!

You will need to modify the block coolant paths, the head coolant paths, port the head, ceramic coat everything, over bore the motor, change valve springs, coolant bypass rail, a huge cooling system, a huge engine oil cooler, a super efficent i/c, and a perfect matched turbo and pump.

The above will give it half a chance.......................But f me, whilst it's got half a chance the power is awesome


Cheers

850-900 temps was that befor or after turbo?

[SuperiorEngineering]

uzdnabuzd,
from your experience when you say ceramic coat everything what parts would you be referring to if you dont mind explaining a bit more in depth.
Mick

[KiwiBacon]

Im not saying not to run big boost, you are missing the simple point I have been trying to make.

Regardless of the boost, the cooler you can get the intake temp the denser the charge air is, regardless of weather it is 20psi or 100psi so im unsure as to why the point it being argued?
Boost doesnt burn fuel, oxygen does. It may pack the oxygen molecules in more tightly, but if there are less of them to pack in the benefit is negated.

If the solution is simply more boost, then the answer to the OP's situation is very simple
Compound turbo it and run 100psi of boost, forget intercooling and engine life and you might make the target power.

Or, do it properly. Take consideration as to how your going to get the air as cool as possible and use the least amount of boost to get your target power, rather than forgetting all the basics and just keep on cranking the boost up.

Yes W/I is used for anti det in petrols. It achieves this by massive cooling of the cylinder walls, valves and piston face on the intake stroke, as well as other chemical means as the water turns to steam. All of which are very big positives for ANY engine running any fuel. The charge density will go up according to the amount of cooling done, so saying its insignificant is kind of like saying a piece of string is this long.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/DIS_WP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good basic read on water/meth if anyone is interested in learning a little more about or doubting the benefits of it in diesel applications.

Do the maths on air temp vs density. Water injection and even water/meth injection can do very little unless you're injecting enough to risk hydraulicly locking your engine.
That link you put up, it's someone trying to sell their own systems.

30psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 1.9 times atmospheric. - this is your heat-soaked scenario.
30psi with 60% intercooling gives charge density of 2.4 times atmospheric. - this is the best your going to get.
45psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 2.2 times atmospheric. - even when fully heat-soaked, it's doing enough.
45psi with 60% intercooling gives a charge density of 3.1 times atmospheric - the clear winner.

It's never about the amount of least amount of air to generate the power you want, it's delivering the amount of air needed to burn the fuel you're injecting. It comes down to air/fuel ratio.

You will need a compound system to reliably run 45psi boost. Otherwise it'll get very peaky and drivability will suffer. Not to mention the scarce number of single turbos that can actually run a PR of 4.

[CustomTurbos]

Detonation reduction in a petrol engine through water addition has been studied to show that the actual process has alot more to do with well dispersed droplets of water that vapourise at the onset of a detonation event and halt it in its tracks. ie: the wave front is halted by the vapourisation of the water droplets.

This has almost nothing to do with overall or average (which is what we measure)temperature drop, it is highly localised. Therefore it has very little to do with an increase in density. It may assist to inprove the measured AFR via another method - the H2O may act as an intermediate species during the diesel combustion reaction and clean up the soot a bit, with an increase in CO, which is clear.

Methanol burns faster than the rate of diesel injection event, so some power will be picked up by the use of it. If you cut back fuel and run more methanol then that could be interesting. I would probably run two systems then - water/meth and straight water.

If you really want big power, run 120cc of diesel, increase cracking pressure of injectors, use 6 port, programmed (ecu mapped) water injection and also petrol injection at 30-40:1 AFR (petrol vs air) and 40psi with an awesome intercooler.

This is will do three things.

* The lesser diesel load and higher cracking pressure will shorthen the injection event, this is required for best use of petrol injection.
* The engine will be FAR more efficient, probably better than std IDI
* The engine will make far more power and should be more reliable and generate alot less heat.

We are currently burning 140cc of fuel at 3000 rpm then ramping it up to 155cc at 4000 rpm and holding that till redline of 4700(currently). Using 42 pound of boost with charge air temps of 75 degrees max over a sustained load period, racing conditions) not dyno time! Egt's approach 850 degrees when full whole at very high road speeds .

Car is on 37 inch tyres with 4.1 ratios! I believe that the vnt was the best all round that we have seen and produced the best rwkw numbers on 35 inch mtz's. At the time we had minor control issues and decided to go back to a wastegated setup for reliability reasons as we had run out of r&d time before the event.

The setup needs to be 150cc with 42-45 pound of boost with a really good intercooler and max charge air temps of 80 degrees! A 6 core laminova will achieve this with a good size heat exchanger. Adding another fuel as in methanol when at such high cc delivery will mask egt's and poor intercooler performance only.

This is the reason people dont think it works.
It is not masking anything, how do you 'mask' egts? They are either lower or higher.

You tune the pump to suit, with thought of the additional fuel the water/meth setup will be providing, not just crank 150+cc then say oh well its got to much methanol in it.
The methanol can help to burn the diesel more completely, thus less is needed.
The type of intercooling it performs is called Chemical intercooling. In the same way injecting Nitrous Oxide reduces intake temp by a significant amount, so does water to a lesser extent.
It can certainly help a poor intercooler to perform better, it can also help a good intercooler perform better.
If your charge temps are 80deg, just think how beneficial it would be to your setup if they were 40degrees? Without adding any additional flow restriction to the air.

Banks dont even have to intercool their rail drag car as the amount of nitrous they run gets their temps below ambient anyway.

[digsy]

Whoa! Now this is some REAL tech on the forum!

Some of the ideas sound amazing - and no doubt the future of Diesel Performance in Aus!

[Northside 4x4]

Im not saying not to run big boost, you are missing the simple point I have been trying to make.

Regardless of the boost, the cooler you can get the intake temp the denser the charge air is, regardless of weather it is 20psi or 100psi so im unsure as to why the point it being argued?
Boost doesnt burn fuel, oxygen does. It may pack the oxygen molecules in more tightly, but if there are less of them to pack in the benefit is negated.

If the solution is simply more boost, then the answer to the OP's situation is very simple
Compound turbo it and run 100psi of boost, forget intercooling and engine life and you might make the target power.

Or, do it properly. Take consideration as to how your going to get the air as cool as possible and use the least amount of boost to get your target power, rather than forgetting all the basics and just keep on cranking the boost up.

Yes W/I is used for anti det in petrols. It achieves this by massive cooling of the cylinder walls, valves and piston face on the intake stroke, as well as other chemical means as the water turns to steam. All of which are very big positives for ANY engine running any fuel. The charge density will go up according to the amount of cooling done, so saying its insignificant is kind of like saying a piece of string is this long.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/DIS_WP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good basic read on water/meth if anyone is interested in learning a little more about or doubting the benefits of it in diesel applications.

Do the maths on air temp vs density. Water injection and even water/meth injection can do very little unless you're injecting enough to risk hydraulicly locking your engine.
That link you put up, it's someone trying to sell their own systems.

30psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 1.9 times atmospheric. - this is your heat-soaked scenario.
30psi with 60% intercooling gives charge density of 2.4 times atmospheric. - this is the best your going to get.
45psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 2.2 times atmospheric. - even when fully heat-soaked, it's doing enough.
45psi with 60% intercooling gives a charge density of 3.1 times atmospheric - the clear winner.

It's never about the amount of least amount of air to generate the power you want, it's delivering the amount of air needed to burn the fuel you're injecting. It comes down to air/fuel ratio.

You will need a compound system to reliably run 45psi boost. Otherwise it'll get very peaky and drivability will suffer. Not to mention the scarce number of single turbos that can actually run a PR of 4.

Pretty much what I have been trying to say, 45psi no intercooling is worse off than 30psi with a cooler..
As you can see with your calc though, going from what ever boost without intercooling, to the same boost with intercooling gives a bigger density change than simply upping the boost.

The article also lists the reference sources at the bottom if you read through it, you can check the papers which they got their information from if you think its just a company spin off.

I am still interested to see your density calcs on water injection ontop of intercooling though.
Perhaps you can do some as above but with a further 40-60deg temp drop which is not hard to get with a good setup on a car running big boost.

[Northside 4x4]

Detonation reduction in a petrol engine through water addition has been studied to show that the actual process has alot more to do with well dispersed droplets of water that vapourise at the onset of a detonation event and halt it in its tracks. ie: the wave front is halted by the vapourisation of the water droplets.

This has almost nothing to do with overall or average (which is what we measure)temperature drop, it is highly localised. Therefore it has very little to do with an increase in density. It may assist to inprove the measured AFR via another method - the H2O may act as an intermediate species during the diesel combustion reaction and clean up the soot a bit, with an increase in CO, which is clear.

Methanol burns faster than the rate of diesel injection event, so some power will be picked up by the use of it. If you cut back fuel and run more methanol then that could be interesting. I would probably run two systems then - water/meth and straight water.

If you really want big power, run 120cc of diesel, increase cracking pressure of injectors, use 6 port, programmed (ecu mapped) water injection and also petrol injection at 30-40:1 AFR (petrol vs air) and 40psi with an awesome intercooler.

This is will do three things.

* The lesser diesel load and higher cracking pressure will shorthen the injection event, this is required for best use of petrol injection.
* The engine will be FAR more efficient, probably better than std IDI
* The engine will make far more power and should be more reliable and generate alot less heat.

We are currently burning 140cc of fuel at 3000 rpm then ramping it up to 155cc at 4000 rpm and holding that till redline of 4700(currently). Using 42 pound of boost with charge air temps of 75 degrees max over a sustained load period, racing conditions) not dyno time! Egt's approach 850 degrees when full whole at very high road speeds .

Car is on 37 inch tyres with 4.1 ratios! I believe that the vnt was the best all round that we have seen and produced the best rwkw numbers on 35 inch mtz's. At the time we had minor control issues and decided to go back to a wastegated setup for reliability reasons as we had run out of r&d time before the event.

The setup needs to be 150cc with 42-45 pound of boost with a really good intercooler and max charge air temps of 80 degrees! A 6 core laminova will achieve this with a good size heat exchanger. Adding another fuel as in methanol when at such high cc delivery will mask egt's and poor intercooler performance only.

This is the reason people dont think it works.
It is not masking anything, how do you 'mask' egts? They are either lower or higher.

You tune the pump to suit, with thought of the additional fuel the water/meth setup will be providing, not just crank 150+cc then say oh well its got to much methanol in it.
The methanol can help to burn the diesel more completely, thus less is needed.
The type of intercooling it performs is called Chemical intercooling. In the same way injecting Nitrous Oxide reduces intake temp by a significant amount, so does water to a lesser extent.
It can certainly help a poor intercooler to perform better, it can also help a good intercooler perform better.
If your charge temps are 80deg, just think how beneficial it would be to your setup if they were 40degrees? Without adding any additional flow restriction to the air.

Banks dont even have to intercool their rail drag car as the amount of nitrous they run gets their temps below ambient anyway.

You'r missing one of the basic things about it though. As it is injected into the air stream after the turbocharger, it is already absorbing heat from the intake air..

Detonation may vapourise the water droplets in a petrol, but look what we have in a diesel. Cylinder pressures and temperatures around combustion that are more than high enough to do the same thing, which in turn forces the water to turn to steam, absorbing heat & increasing cylinder pressure further again.
It works in so many different ways its hard to list them all, which is why I posted that link as the details and info in there has been taken from studies 'which are shown at the bottom of the article'

[KiwiBacon]

Pretty much what I have been trying to say, 45psi no intercooling is worse off than 30psi with a cooler..
As you can see with your calc though, going from what ever boost without intercooling, to the same boost with intercooling gives a bigger density change than simply upping the boost.

Funny that. When you've stopped comparing 45psi with no intercooler to 30psi with a good intercooler, you can consider 45psi with a good intercooler.

I am still interested to see your density calcs on water injection ontop of intercooling though.
Perhaps you can do some as above but with a further 40-60deg temp drop which is not hard to get with a good setup on a car running big boost.

For intake density, the most water injection can drop the air temp to is the wet-bulb temp. On a 25 deg day with 70% humidity that's about 19 degrees C. For 6 degrees it's not worth the hassle and definitely not worth the compressor erosion.
Injecting post turbo it becomes very difficult to evaporate water due to the extra pressure so most of what you're doing is just hosing in water at a colder temp and you need to hose in a massive amount of water to make much difference to air temps and densities. The graph in that pdf you linked up shows 19C max difference, from 89C to 70C.

Basically investments in more boost and better intercooling provide better results while being more reliable, don't run dry and can't hydraulic the engine.

[CustomTurbos]

Firstly I should say That I am a 100% proponent of water injection in a diesel for a few reasons and slight cooling is one of them, but I am being realistic about its use.

As for missing the point about absorbing heat, I didnt miss it at all, I simply avoided it because I was attempting to inform the reader about not drawing an analogy between two very different combustion events.

Accuracy is key. I had no choice but to refute comparisons drawn to petrol engines since the mechnaism for detonation and therefore the ensuing performance gains are via entirely different mechanisms. Such comparisons only serve to further misguide people who are generally already....misguided. EDIT - by this I mean there is alot of erroneous "info" on the net

There is most definately some cooling benefit, however water also vapourises and occupies volume that would otherwise be oxygen, so it works against you to some degree, but not entirely.

I am sure Dougal will run up some calcs on a mass% basis and resulting temp drop due to latent heat of vapourisation. I havent run them up and cant this week, but from the engineering papers I have read, water alone doesnt make a huge difference.

[KiwiBacon]

This is will do three things.

* The lesser diesel load and higher cracking pressure will shorthen the injection event, this is required for best use of petrol injection.
* The engine will be FAR more efficient, probably better than std IDI
* The engine will make far more power and should be more reliable and generate alot less heat.

Don't forget the fourth thing.
*Massively increase peak cylinder pressures.

I think it's because the TD42's have really short con-rods that they put up with this at all. Let alone running it like a HCCI engine.

[CustomTurbos]

Actually a good friend of mine setup water injection on his 1HDT and due to a fault in the system, the water siphoned into his inlet manifold and when he started it he hydrauliced it and bent three rods :-( I have one of the rods at home......it pushed one of the gudeon pins into the cylinder wall and wrecked the barrel beyond overbore (was std bore too).

Pretty much what I have been trying to say, 45psi no intercooling is worse off than 30psi with a cooler..
As you can see with your calc though, going from what ever boost without intercooling, to the same boost with intercooling gives a bigger density change than simply upping the boost.

Funny that. When you've stopped comparing 45psi with no intercooler to 30psi with a good intercooler, you can consider 45psi with a good intercooler.

I am still interested to see your density calcs on water injection ontop of intercooling though.
Perhaps you can do some as above but with a further 40-60deg temp drop which is not hard to get with a good setup on a car running big boost.

For intake density, the most water injection can drop the air temp to is the wet-bulb temp. On a 25 deg day with 70% humidity that's about 19 degrees C. For 6 degrees it's not worth the hassle and definitely not worth the compressor erosion.
Injecting post turbo it becomes very difficult to evaporate water due to the extra pressure so most of what you're doing is just hosing in water at a colder temp and you need to hose in a massive amount of water to make much difference to air temps and densities. The graph in that pdf you linked up shows 19C max difference, from 89C to 70C.

Basically investments in more boost and better intercooling provide better results while being more reliable, don't run dry and can't hydraulic the engine.

[CustomTurbos]

The trick is running it very lean which dramatically lowers the flame front velocity.

Theory on my part too, I cant claim to have done it. Just from what I have gleaned from papers.

Wouldnt quite be HCCI..... I would want to avoid that and run as non HCCI stratified charge - this is for racing, not pure efficiency. If it were pure efficiency then HCCI and much lower BMEP would be the go.

This is will do three things.

* The lesser diesel load and higher cracking pressure will shorthen the injection event, this is required for best use of petrol injection.
* The engine will be FAR more efficient, probably better than std IDI
* The engine will make far more power and should be more reliable and generate alot less heat.

Don't forget the fourth thing.
*Massively increase peak cylinder pressures.

I think it's because the TD42's have really short con-rods that they put up with this at all. Let alone running it like a HCCI engine.

[KiwiBacon]

I am sure Dougal will run up some calcs on a mass% basis and resulting temp drop due to latent heat of vapourisation. I havent run them up and cant this week, but from the engineering papers I have read, water alone doesnt make a huge difference.

I really need to get some real work done this week.

[uzdnabuzd]

uzdnabuzd,
from your experience when you say ceramic coat everything what parts would you be referring to if you dont mind explaining a bit more in depth.
Mick

coat, pistons, valves, combustion chamber, exhaust ports. pre combs. Molly coat the skirts

Cheers

[uzdnabuzd]

Bottom end is not going to be your problem with 45 psi. heat will. A td42ti bottom end with do just fine. We ran this boost for a 4 day event (Outback challenge stye) and on it for 30-40min at a time. Sustained egts for this time of 850-900c. We pulled the motor down after the comp to check it and try a different cam (what a waist of time). The bearings were like brand new!

You will need to modify the block coolant paths, the head coolant paths, port the head, ceramic coat everything, over bore the motor, change valve springs, coolant bypass rail, a huge cooling system, a huge engine oil cooler, a super efficent i/c, and a perfect matched turbo and pump.

The above will give it half a chance.......................But f me, whilst it's got half a chance the power is awesome


Cheers

I forgot to add that you will need to balance the motor

[uzdnabuzd]

Im not saying not to run big boost, you are missing the simple point I have been trying to make.

Regardless of the boost, the cooler you can get the intake temp the denser the charge air is, regardless of weather it is 20psi or 100psi so im unsure as to why the point it being argued?
Boost doesnt burn fuel, oxygen does. It may pack the oxygen molecules in more tightly, but if there are less of them to pack in the benefit is negated.

If the solution is simply more boost, then the answer to the OP's situation is very simple
Compound turbo it and run 100psi of boost, forget intercooling and engine life and you might make the target power.

Or, do it properly. Take consideration as to how your going to get the air as cool as possible and use the least amount of boost to get your target power, rather than forgetting all the basics and just keep on cranking the boost up.

Yes W/I is used for anti det in petrols. It achieves this by massive cooling of the cylinder walls, valves and piston face on the intake stroke, as well as other chemical means as the water turns to steam. All of which are very big positives for ANY engine running any fuel. The charge density will go up according to the amount of cooling done, so saying its insignificant is kind of like saying a piece of string is this long.

http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/DIS_WP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good basic read on water/meth if anyone is interested in learning a little more about or doubting the benefits of it in diesel applications.

Do the maths on air temp vs density. Water injection and even water/meth injection can do very little unless you're injecting enough to risk hydraulicly locking your engine.
That link you put up, it's someone trying to sell their own systems.

30psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 1.9 times atmospheric. - this is your heat-soaked scenario.
30psi with 60% intercooling gives charge density of 2.4 times atmospheric. - this is the best your going to get.
45psi with no intercooling gives a charge density of 2.2 times atmospheric. - even when fully heat-soaked, it's doing enough.
45psi with 60% intercooling gives a charge density of 3.1 times atmospheric - the clear winner.

It's never about the amount of least amount of air to generate the power you want, it's delivering the amount of air needed to burn the fuel you're injecting. It comes down to air/fuel ratio.

You will need a compound system to reliably run 45psi boost. Otherwise it'll get very peaky and drivability will suffer. Not to mention the scarce number of single turbos that can actually run a PR of 4.

Im running single turbo 42psi. Drivability is fine. Boost by 2000, 2200 30psi, almost instantly after that 42psi............... It is also efficent at this and is inside the compressor map

[1MadEngineer]

surely in the long run it would be cheaper and have more potential, to just remove and sell the current good condition tricked up TD42T and install a duramax??

[turbo gu]

surely in the long run it would be cheaper and have more potential, to just remove and sell the current good condition tricked up TD42T and install a duramax??

Isnt the duramax a fair bit heavier?? Apart from that I would have to agree as the upgrades available are far easier and gain alot more power!

[CustomTurbos]

Yes it is... and smoke free once boost is up and right up to high revs - and seriously has torque and revs

Imagine similar turbo trim config but vnt......

As for comments on DMAX - this is not different to my post on why not install a petrol; ie: its not the point, the point is what can be done with a TD42 irrespective of whether it makes sense or not.

I believe the costs are coming down on developing a quick TD42 or any other similar sized diesel as many have explored the engine mechanical limits and instead of money spent on pistons and bottom end, it can be spent on bolt on accesories. Cleverly chosen bolt on bits could reward an owner with a economically priced performance diesel - maybe not 350whp though; I guess time will tell. :-)

QUOTE
Im running single turbo 42psi. Drivability is fine. Boost by 2000, 2200 30psi, almost instantly after that 42psi............... It is also efficent at this and is inside the compressor map[/quote]