4.2 Injector pump for Big HP

[Northside 4x4]

Garrett make a few that respond well down low and are still 70% efficient at a PR of 3.75 and still flowing 45lbs/min.
Their next size up will be to large and push you into the surge line, but! it does run up to 4.4PR @ 65%

Thats garretts problem anyway, not enough size choices.

[UGOTNUFN]

Dieslex

Graeme, EGt's on that big RwKw run were sub 700 as we had the owner with us and at that stage he was VERY wary about high egts as we had not yet ceramic coated anything as it was the factory engine untouched.As you pointed out it did have some valve damage when we pulled it down but didnt seem to worry it. Im really not sure sure why we didnt actually push the boundaries with that setup as we had the fuel available. I think it was me that said "get it off" as i was concerned that the control wasn't 100% right and we would have issues during the event. We will go there again soon

Andy:: I find that query from you about 150cc not being enough to make that power very strange as you well know that your 11mm pump at 113cc and a 2860 at 23 psi made 150RwKw on MTZ's. so it shouldnt take another 60-70CC to make 210RwKw say.

We currently use a single turbo that will handle a PR of 4.7 and is reasonably driveable below 2000, its nothing like a well matched turbo for instant throttle response and really sharp N/A style governed fuel pumps BUT you will not achieve that and the high end RwKw with any single setup.

Back to the VNT Graeme.

[UGOTNUFN]

Thats garretts problem anyway, not enough size choices.

They have plenty of other problems as well, try looking outside the box and garret for that matter you may be very surprised.

But i guess if thats the only brand with a flashy catalogue then go with them.

[Northside 4x4]

Thats garretts problem anyway, not enough size choices.

They have plenty of other problems as well, try looking outside the box and garret for that matter you may be very surprised.

But i guess if thats the only brand with a flashy catalogue then go with them.

Thats what my point was...
Garrett are in my opinion still in the top 3 manufactures. First for quality, 3rd for range, 2nd for reliability.
I think having housings made at the foundry to a complete custom spec is outside the box enough. If I raced a truck with a TD42 in it, I might consider doing VNT or compound because thats about the limit of turbo technology today...
But... If im making kits, price, reliability, backup, is more important than the other factors.

[UGOTNUFN]

Thats garretts problem anyway, not enough size choices.

They have plenty of other problems as well, try looking outside the box and garret for that matter you may be very surprised.

But i guess if thats the only brand with a flashy catalogue then go with them.

Thats what my point was...
Garrett are in my opinion still in the top 3 manufactures. First for quality, 3rd for range, 2nd for reliability.
I think having housings made at the foundry to a complete custom spec is outside the box enough. If I raced a truck with a TD42 in it, I might consider doing VNT or compound because thats about the limit of turbo technology today...
But... If im making kits, price, reliability, backup, is more important than the other factors.

I sell TD42 upgrade kits and i wouldnt (havent ever) used a garret product in any of my kits for the same reasons, i see toooo many OEM garret products that are an engineering nighmare. I choose to use a product of another brand that is bulletproof and if you were to see some of the things i see as a turbo repair business you would probably begin to see it differently.

But thast why we have so many different car brands because we all like different things.

Just humour me and look at some of the other top 3 brands you believe in.

[Northside 4x4]

I dont use only Garrett... I use other brands frequently depending on the application.
The reason I do use Garrett for the vehicles I choose to, is because they make the best turbo for the application at hand.
As im sure you know being a turbo repair shop, the leading cause of turbo failure is normally dirt ingestion (intake or oiling system)
Or abuse and overspeeding them, I doubt you could call any turbo 'bulletproof' for this reason.
Over the years Garrett has held a pretty good record for reliability in my books, so on this point we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Dzltec]

i'll have to check the specs but i'm sure it was set to more fuel than that. I use a bosch bench, denso test injectors, 150bar 12sd12 iso nozzles, 6x2x840 lines. Im pretty sure it left at 130-140cc from memory. However the request was 130rwkw, thats what it achieved.

Hence me asking the question. There are either driveline differences, test bench differences in measuring fuel delivery or dyno differences. Im trying to compare apples to apples.

bring on the compounds with a tough auto trans, a win win situation.

Andy

[Wilba]

I think I have a solution to everyones dramas.Everyone build your td42s run whatever you like in it ,NOS ,propane ,sqirt methanol down ya pants and pour water down ya snorkles,hell strap rockets on the roof!!!Then we take them to Benaraby and sting the piss out off them at a test and tune afternoon!!!!I`ll match ya 500 pasos to see that!!Can you make sence of this post?? Cheers B I L L Y.

[UGOTNUFN]

i'll have to check the specs but i'm sure it was set to more fuel than that. I use a bosch bench, denso test injectors, 150bar 12sd12 iso nozzles, 6x2x840 lines. Im pretty sure it left at 130-140cc from memory. However the request was 130rwkw, thats what it achieved.

Hence me asking the question. There are either driveline differences, test bench differences in measuring fuel delivery or dyno differences. Im trying to compare apples to apples.

bring on the compounds with a tough auto trans, a win win situation.

Andy

Nah wasnt anywhere near that, we tested it after he had finished with it so we knew where to start from for the next stepup in power. That pump is still actually for sale "dieslex" actually has it in his possesion as we sold it to a mate of his after the 2860 shit the tin.

In anycase it was awsome setup for a beginner (not you,someone starting out in comps). When i get back to the shop (needed a few weeks off to breathe) i will check with my pump guys what injectors they use but 140's ring a bell.

We have a HEAP of OEM vnt's at the shop that "dieslex" and i have pondered over for a compound setup and given more time we will revisit some more R&D time.

[digsy]

.... No B I L L Y we can't...!





Your one crazy typer brother!

[CustomTurbos]

Hi Sswaffie, I dont mean valve overlap (perhaps scavenge isnt the best use of the term, I simply mean the performance of the exhaust removal), because there almost isnt any, but consider the engine volume at top dead centre is 1/22 of the cylinder volume, so at TDC on exhaust stroke and just after, the amount of unburned exhaust removed is affected greatly by the pressure differential in cylinder and in EM. Of course, the higher the boost, the higher the EMP, but if the ratio of IMP to EMP is favourable, it is less of an issue. With poor IMP/EMP ratio you can also loose alot of power on the exhaust stroke.

Your 1:1 is a very good result.

I understand the way you have tuned your engine and why it works so well in racing environment on dirt. Your comp wheel is very efficient but the way you have tuned it, you simply wont be able to get good low down. Seems to me something like a 56 trim GT3076.

Since the power is near flat from 3k onwards, every time you change gear you have the same power. BUT, because torque reduces as the rpm rises, you also maximise your traction - as the revs rise with wheel slip, the torque drops off and wheel slip is minimized.

It is the same in dirt bikes - mine (4S) made peak torque at 8000rpm, peak power at 10,500 and held 90% of it to 13,500. This "over rev" meant that I could slip it ito power territory really well and always be on the noise. the result is that my 32hp at wheels was quick even with the 50HP+ guys (except on long straight....). By comparison, you would be competetive and get less tyre wear and better traction than the V8 guys with less but flatter torque curve but 30% more power, except on long straight.

[quote="Dieslex1 EMP is actually lower than IMP. This lower ratio improves scavenging dramatically and improves the resulting AFR (due to better VE) for a given boost.

Can you tell us what you mean by scavenge ,are you refering to valve overlap scavenge ?


We are running a ratio of 1:1 EMP vs IMP A little higher while producing the boost (not much) but once boost is made its 1:1

The therory of leaning AFR to produce more HP (Increse boost and not touch fuel) Spot on the money there!

The problem that we are facing ATM is Boost and to make intercooler efficienty better ,Its hard to get a non VNT to create high boost , be in its efficienty range and spool decient enough its not a pig under 2200 rpm.
Answer - Vnt or compound turbochargers

The problem is making it cost effictive to the customer , fair enough if thats what they want and they are willing to spend the money but its very rare people want to spend 15 k on a td42 as it is. so people still need to keep in mind what is cost effictive for target HP .[/quote]

[CustomTurbos]

I just realised that some of my posts represent a hijack as I respond to peoples questions and topic can get a bit OT. Apologies for getting off track.

[sswaffie]

Thanks for the reply, I'm glad you cleared that up as you
had me scratching my head as I have dialed these camshafts
and was wondering how scavenge affect on valve o/l could
work with this particular camshaft . And I agree more, emp
means the more the piston becomes a pump and has to push
out what is left.

Your theory is good with the tractible power

[sambo]

Just out of interest what is the most amount of power that people have been able to get out of a TD42, and run it all day everyday, i.e. as a daily driver.

[CustomTurbos]

It is a good question, but depends on what style of driving people do daily.

In my opinion, probably the 150-180rwkw is the top range. the lower figure with good-ish bottom end all rounder and the higher figure with a highly compromised sub 2000rpm.

Also, 150rwkw by around 3k with great bottom end is a very quick daily driver - maybe not if you are used to 6.0 V8 conversions, but if you want fuel economy and love diesel, its a good option.

Some will validly argue this I am sure, it's just an opinion.

Just out of interest what is the most amount of power that people have been able to get out of a TD42, and run it all day everyday, i.e. as a daily driver.

[Wilba]

Yep not far from it, "Whity" Being my gq work ute has run around 280- 300hp at the wheels for about 30k now. Not far off shawn`s race car but running cheepo intercooler and He has modded the boost compensater to suite (so wifey and others can drive it without Gassing the entyre population of rockhampton).It is true though you can drive one of these for a every day driver no probs and keep it in one piece.You would wowever have to be even more careful in a heavy towing situation and in that case you might want to opt for a lower fuel/boost setup.A good read for some people might be a crew in the states who build bombed up truck engines shuch as ntc 855 cummins motors and a fair topic is driver related.Look up Pittsberg Performance and they talk about heavy foot drivers undr low rpm and how much damage you can cause to a performance diesle in that situation.Is not rocket science Diesles are touquey standard,if you make them put out buls#it hp thay will put out bu#shit touque!(Enough to twist truck Blocks!!!)Cheers Billy





uote="sambo"]Just out of interest what is the most amount of power that people have been able to get out of a TD42, and run it all day everyday, i.e. as a daily driver.[/quote]

[Northside 4x4]

Yep not far from it, "Whity" Being my gq work ute has run around 280- 300hp at the wheels for about 30k now. Not far off shawn`s race car but running cheepo intercooler and He has modded the boost compensater to suite (so wifey and others can drive it without Gassing the entyre population of rockhampton).It is true though you can drive one of these for a every day driver no probs and keep it in one piece.You would wowever have to be even more careful in a heavy towing situation and in that case you might want to opt for a lower fuel/boost setup.A good read for some people might be a crew in the states who build bombed up truck engines shuch as ntc 855 cummins motors and a fair topic is driver related.Look up Pittsberg Performance and they talk about heavy foot drivers undr low rpm and how much damage you can cause to a performance diesle in that situation.Is not rocket science Diesles are touquey standard,if you make them put out buls#it hp thay will put out bu#shit touque!(Enough to twist truck Blocks!!!)Cheers Billy





uote="sambo"]Just out of interest what is the most amount of power that people have been able to get out of a TD42, and run it all day everyday, i.e. as a daily driver.

[/quote]


So the short version of that is.

If you use your car everyday for real life purposes such as towing, beach trips, driving to the shops, taking the kids to school.
A good fast spooling turbo and standard pump setup that can still achieve 150+kw atw would be preferable having the pump modified to provide 300kw of fuel, but having to turn off the solenoid on anything but pure race applications?

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"

[RD]

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"[quote="Northside 4x4"][quote= rd with that horse power why do need foot flat under 2500rpm I don't think u understand katuh spit

[toughnut]

This thread is awesome and should be move to general tech. It has far further reaching applications than just TD42. But then again. Don't want to give too much away to the landloser crowd. lol.

Awesome debates guys. Filled my otherwise boring night shift nicely.

[Wilba]

Bang on roundy

[marty]

Yep not far from it, "Whity" Being my gq work ute has run around 280- 300hp at the wheels for about 30k now. Not far off shawn`s race car but running cheepo intercooler and He has modded the boost compensater to suite (so wifey and others can drive it without Gassing the entyre population of rockhampton).It is true though you can drive one of these for a every day driver no probs and keep it in one piece.You would wowever have to be even more careful in a heavy towing situation and in that case you might want to opt for a lower fuel/boost setup.A good read for some people might be a crew in the states who build bombed up truck engines shuch as ntc 855 cummins motors and a fair topic is driver related.Look up Pittsberg Performance and they talk about heavy foot drivers undr low rpm and how much damage you can cause to a performance diesle in that situation.Is not rocket science Diesles are touquey standard,if you make them put out buls#it hp thay will put out bu#shit touque!(Enough to twist truck Blocks!!!)Cheers Billy





uote="sambo"]Just out of interest what is the most amount of power that people have been able to get out of a TD42, and run it all day everyday, i.e. as a daily driver.

So the short version of that is.

If you use your car everyday for real life purposes such as towing, beach trips, driving to the shops, taking the kids to school.
A good fast spooling turbo and standard pump setup that can still achieve 150+kw atw would be preferable having the pump modified to provide 300kw of fuel, but having to turn off the solenoid on anything but pure race applications?

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"[/quote]


My work ute which is 3720kg day in day out and is over 190rwkw has been singing along nicely for around 25k km now with no problems.
No need to baby it around under 2500rpm no need to drive it flat out anywhere either, but you have the power to make it nice to drive.
Around town I wouldn't even rev it past 2500rpm.
But I am smart enough to keep a eye on things and not belt the piss out of it up big hills etc etc to help it survive.
I didn't get any instructions from my pump builder about how to drive it.

Now lets get back to the good stuff.

Marty

[sswaffie]

So the short version of that is.

If you use your car everyday for real life purposes such as towing, beach trips, driving to the shops, taking the kids to school.
A good fast spooling turbo and standard pump setup that can still achieve 150+kw atw would be preferable having the pump modified to provide 300kw of fuel, but having to turn off the solenoid on anything but pure race applications?

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"

Thats because you just don't get it! We try and give the customer what they want and explain the pro's and cons with the option , billy wanted a high HP td42 and that he could use everyday This car has been around the 300hp mark for over two years! And well if i cant read the topic of this thread it sort of relates to that.

Your a wannabe, hasbeen ledgend in your own lunch box (northside4X4)
Mick wanted high HP and results to back it up , What have you brought to the table? Nothing! Nothing, but trying to bignote your crack hole and say how you would do this and do that , WELL go and do it then come back with the results ON AND OFF THE TRACK!!!!!!

Take your buisness marketing stragities and push it on facebook

You are your own worst enemy

[Wilba]

(so wifey and others can drive it without Gassing the entyre population of rockhampton).It is true though you can drive one of these for a every day driver no probs and keep it in one piece.You would wowever have to be even more careful in a heavy towing situation and in that case you might want to opt for a lower fuel/boost setup.A good read for some people might be a crew in the states who build bombed up truck engines shuch as ntc 855 cummins motors and a fair topic is driver related.Look up Pittsberg Performance and they talk about heavy foot drivers undr low rpm and how much damage you can cause to a performance diesle in that situation.Is not rocket science Diesles are touquey standard,if you make them put out buls#it hp thay will put out bu#shit touque!(Enough to twist truck Blocks!!!)Cheers Billy








So the short version of that is.

If you use your car everyday for real life purposes such as towing, beach trips, driving to the shops, taking the kids to school.
A good fast spooling turbo and standard pump setup that can still achieve 150+kw atw would be preferable having the pump modified to provide 300kw of fuel, but having to turn off the solenoid on anything but pure race applications?

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"[/quote]

Hey pal in this statement you prove you know exactlly half what you profess to know.You realise when you make statments like that you are calling us lyers.We don`t talk about things we are going to build we build them and then talk about them.Pittsberg performance have been building performance motors for trucks for more than 25 years do you realise how stupid you sound when you bag the importance of driver ability in a mechanical pump performance diesel?What do you think computors do when they mange a motor?I`m with swaff mate go back to face book your starting to really get boring and predictable.Billy

[vanbox]

Dont get this thread locked! Im loving the tech

[UGOTNUFN]

So the short version of that is.

If you use your car everyday for real life purposes such as towing, beach trips, driving to the shops, taking the kids to school.
A good fast spooling turbo and standard pump setup that can still achieve 150+kw atw would be preferable having the pump modified to provide 300kw of fuel, but having to turn off the solenoid on anything but pure race applications?

I just dont get why companies mod their pump to flow so much, then say " oh just dont drive it foot flat below 2500rpm or you will smoke out your entire city"

Thats because you just don't get it! We try and give the customer what they want and explain the pro's and cons with the option , billy wanted a high HP td42 and that he could use everyday This car has been around the 300hp mark for over two years! And well if i cant read the topic of this thread it sort of relates to that.

Your a wannabe, hasbeen ledgend in your own lunch box (northside4X4)
Mick wanted high HP and results to back it up , What have you brought to the table? Nothing! Nothing, but trying to bignote your crack hole and say how you would do this and do that , WELL go and do it then come back with the results ON AND OFF THE TRACK!!!!!!

Take your buisness marketing stragities and push it on facebook

You are your own worst enemy

Argh!!!!

[Northside 4x4]

Looks like I strike a nerve every time I question the way most shops and so called experts do things and the views most people have regarding diesel tuning.
Im here to stay, so keep on firing away with the insults. All it shows to the majority of the people reading this thread and not actively taking part in it, is most shops and experts dont like being questioned on the way they do things.
Because their answer is generally, I know everything so shut your mouth (which is basically what has been said).

And if you actually read the posts, my response was aimed at Sambo's question regarding maximum power/reliability for a daily driver.

2 years on 300hp? what does that mean exactly though? That its got more years behind than in front? Or that it will last another 10? Because most of the rebuilds I do on TD42's (and that is alot) are normally broken around 20-30K after being modded to make 150-160kw atw.

So you guys keep on firing away and pumping out the smoke machines, and ill stay in business fixing them up

[SuperiorEngineering]

Northside 4x4,
Just my opinion but you might be barking up the wrong tree, you havent actually acheived what these guys have, after all you were the first to say it cant be done.

Sometimes its better just to read posts and learn not critisize the guys who have acheived something better ( any way in my eyes they have achieved something better )

[quote="Northside 4x4

Because most of the rebuilds I do on TD42's (and that is alot) are normally broken around 20-30K after being modded to make 150-160kw atw.[/quote]

I didn't realise you guys now have a machine shop, i thought you were only retail and the dyno, i will have to come over and have a look one day.
Mick

[Northside 4x4]

Northside 4x4,
Just my opinion but you might be barking up the wrong tree, you havent actually acheived what these guys have, after all you were the first to say it cant be done.

Sometimes its better just to read posts and learn not critisize the guys who have acheived something better ( any way in my eyes they have achieved something better )

[quote="Northside 4x4

Because most of the rebuilds I do on TD42's (and that is alot) are normally broken around 20-30K after being modded to make 150-160kw atw.

I didn't realise you guys now have a machine shop, i thought you were only retail and the dyno, i will have to come over and have a look one day.
Mick[/quote]

Maybe you have missed the point Superior. When we helped Heath build and tune his TD42 all those years ago, we did achieve what you are hoping for.
And it was at the forefront of diesel power and tech back in the day, nobody in Australia had a setup anywhere near it. And it provided us with a very good amount of hard data regarding the motor and what could be done.

So saying we haven't done it is kind of misleading, we have done it before anybody else. Its now an old and done setup that some companies are only just catching up on 6 years+ since we had it done and dusted.
The whole diesel community and Heath has since moved forward to better technology, instead of trying to flog a dead horse with the TD42, sure it can be done just copy what heath had 6 years ago and add on the 10% magic dyno results you get from most shops.

If TD42's still represented a good market share of engine modifications and breakthrough technology out there I would still be a big player in it. The fact is 99% of any modification that could be done to a TD42 has been done. Regardless of weather some companies such as Swaff want to portray them as 330hp instead of the likely 280-290hp they are really making is their decision. I class the 1% as Billet CNC head with overhead cam and 4V per cylinder.

So, best of luck and I really do hope to see you and your customer making the desired power level and having it reliable.
If not you know where a good shop is that can do the job properly and has made a reputation in fixing and rebuilding TD42's that other shops wreck.

[sswaffie]

This has probably been posted a million times but i am after the most current info .

Who has had a pump/ turbo combination successfully built for them to achieve 350+ RWHP in a patrol 4.2 TD.
( for this post i am not talking about all the internal work and extra add ons just 2 things, the pump and turbo )
Any business's that reply, please back up your info with real figures and dyno figures not estimates or guess's and you can PM or email me pricing if you like as i am in a hurry to get a TD42 ready for it's next race.
Mick

Daily updates at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Superior- ... 9670614605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remember this ?????? TOPIC OF dicussion

Then you said heaths made 298 299 hp running 25 psi of boost and running a AFR of 17:1 .... i find these figures hard to believe , was he running water meth , dry ice Intercooler to achieve this ?

Maby you should start a thread titled FIGJAM NORTHSIDE 4X4 and rad engine rebuilder and my dyno is rite and everyone in the universe is a fake!!

Back on topic

Mick , how did kevvy go . Did chappy dyno it ?

[SuperiorEngineering]

Chapmans dyno'd kevin's the other day, approx figures as i did not see the graph just what kevin told me on the phone but with air filter on and normal boost ( i think under 14psi) it made just under 200HP at the wheels, i was close i estimated around 190RWHP.
With the filter off and the turbo at maximum boost it went just under 210 RWHP i think it was.
If its not correct kevi can correct the post but thats pretty close.

Kev's is stock apart from the front mount, ebay turbo, slightly moded pump, standard intake and exhaust manifolds ect
Chapmans stated the pump was not the downfall in this instance but the turbo combination not boosting enough for the fuel, makes sence for the amount of black unburnt fuel of the start line and in the lower - mid range of the engine.

Kevin, myself and Errold are still discussing our options and which way to go to get the extra HP, changing to a different motor combination is no option as none of us have the time to do such a job and it is good all the diesel trucks are competeing on level ground in the events we have been discussing, so we just have to choose what parts to change in the first stage.
Mick