Offroad Boss King of the Rim '11

[WICKED]

As a competitor that broke, I don't want troo hold anyone up! I don't want too have them say later " I would have been faster if it wasn't for you!" etc. Clearing the track is fine. Moving bunting is just silly.

How about we get it up and running and doing well before nit picking?

I broke on tge first hill climb after waiting all bloody morning in that hot ass weather and still had a good time! Thanks again!

[Dover]

As an official on the weekend i was one of the guys that make the call as to whether or not someone can drive around the bunting or pass outside the course.
This dicision is usually based of driver/navi safety as to whether it is ok for vehicles to pass or not and how practical it is to hold the known "faster" cars up for a period of time.
I know for a fact that alot of cars were held up for some time on the lower section of Cals due to others being stuck and they were all told that they could go around or try another line but none of them did.
Unfortunatly for King of the Rim we dont have the luxury to run a comp 4 lanes wide around every where were if a car stops or is stuck that there are any other way to go but through the bunting.
Yes it is a crowd pleaser to have someone drive over another car or push them out of the way but alot of these cars are still bodied rigs and i'm sure they wouldn't have been appreciative of a tube car with nothing but rollcage pushing them out of the way. It was always stated in the rules that you could pass in a "safe manner" and unfortunatly for us this is what we need to enforce.
With insurances becoming expensive for these types of events in Oz safety is a very important factor.
I would love to see cars push each other out of the way or drive over each other as much as anyone else but we need to play it safe.
Maybe next year some of them will and it will be a bit more entertaining to see cars do it, but this year was the first year that Brett & Mitch and most of the officials had run this event so we may have been a bit safety concious.
I say bring on next year and this issue can be addressed with competitors to see if they would like it as they are the reasons we go to watch.
Just my 2 bobs worth.

[vanbox]

Having been up the creek a few times now (spectating) I may be making a silly suggestion...

Could the bunting be made wider? Even though the creek might only be 1 car wide, if the bunting is wider that allows the creative lines etc. It may be undriveable, and winching is boring to watch, but gives the drivers options. If they want to wait/help the stuck car, it could hurt their time, but the line may be easier. Or risk it on a virgin line, with potentially a big gain.

Im disappointed I didnt make it out to this. Sounds like a hoot and will definitely happen again. Before we know it, KOTR will become a series. There is some great terrain in various parks around the southeast corner!

Someone must have some videos of crampys climb. Having watched Dave drive that for the first time, I cant believe Im hearing Dunk passed a competitor!

[Rolly]

all feed back is welcome and there are a few good points made and taken on board .
we dont have the luxury of having 40 ultra 4 style buggys competing and we have to run 2 classes of vehicle to have the numbers .
i dont know of any bunting being lifted in the buggy class but i may be wrong and we will have to address that .
i do know i made the decision to move the bunting to let some cars around in the extreme mod class because they still have panels and alot of glass in these vehicles .it would be to dangerous and i dont think we can go down that path with this spec of vehicle.
as for the creek there was no bunting except for the spectators and it was free for all to the top . from memory matt dunk started 5th ten minutes behind the first car and finished first .
we are listening to all constructive comments and ideas and we have already started planning for next year .

cheers brett

[Giggles83]

Not "nit picking" just constructive critism. If your aiming for an ultra 4 style event then applying their rules makes the most sense to me, no?
If someone is allowed to skirt around an obstacle wouldnt that come off a bit more unfair in total times if you avoid an obstacle?
I think thats halfthe element of appeal to that sort of racing. When you end up with a bottleneck of cars drivers seeing only red mist need to weigh up their options. Is it more beneficial to, take the hard line around, help the other car get out of the way, or sit and wait? Making the decision to help someone else to help you advance is an element missing in offroad events in australia.
At the end ofthe day people will winge about something if didnt win. Its learning to acknowledge you gave it your all but it just wasnt your day.

[Rolly]

we are not trying to be king of hammers or a ultra 4 event we are trying to cater for two classes of vehicle in the one competition .
the terrain we have to work with governs alot and the people that were there will know where the one main bottle neck was ans there is no way you could pass or get around it was way to steep . we as organisers and the competitors are both learning this format of racing and i am sure we can all improve in the future and make it more entertaining for the spectators and more fun for the drivers .

cheers brett

[digsy]

Yeah your on the wrong lines there Wicked.
No one is nit picking - everyone is super ampd on this new racing in Aus - but we do need to make sure we get it right.

I did personally see the bunting lifted for a buggy - but it is now obvious it was never the intention of the Event Organisers - and I'm not knocking Marshalls in any way - these volunteers make these events!

So again there is not 1 single part of nit picking - just expressing an interest in the need to get the "format" of this Ultra4 style racing sorted -
Believe me there does appear to be a "Boom" coming for this type of vehicle - it's how we work together to keep it sustainable (thus my mention of entry level) that will set it in good stead for the future...

Also I totally agree that pushing or driving over vehicles should not be ok - I more meant alternate lines, help the other team or sit&wait as pre Giggles post.

[Mosko111]

we are not trying to be king of hammers or a ultra 4 event we are trying to cater for two classes of vehicle in the one competition .
the terrain we have to work with governs alot and the people that were there will know where the one main bottle neck was ans there is no way you could pass or get around it was way to steep . we as organisers and the competitors are both learning this format of racing and i am sure we can all improve in the future and make it more entertaining for the spectators and more fun for the drivers .

cheers brett

By the sounds of it you guys are making leaps and bounds in the right direction! and with the idea of keeping it an event for the rock rigs and winch rigs i think you are doing a great thing!
I wasnt there on the weekend but if vehicles were given the chance to leave the marked course to pass a stranded vehicle in a safe manner, then thats great!
Maybe as a suggestion could there be a section in next years nom forms where you can tick a box that says "i am more then happy to have a vehicle drive over or push me out of the way if i have broken down on the track" then you could place a few high vis stickers on the rigs that are all for that style of racing and let it be a free for all??
With KOH and Ultra 4 being mentioned, we cant forget that those guys are mainly all majorly sponsored, running tube frames with easily replacable panels and are in it to take the win for the series. Back here in Aus things are a little more laid back, with backyard built rigs and low budgets for the weekend play rigs and sometimes race rigs, so this should be taken in consideration.

Just my Two cents worth as i dont know much about anything but is what i think about the situation at hand....

Cant wait to see how it all turns out next year guys! cheers Mosko

P.s are yourself and mitch runing it next year mate??

[Rolly]

yes we will be doing it again mosko . enjoyed this year and feel we all have more to offer next year with some new ideas and more seat time for the drivers which will be alot better for the spectators.

[WICKED]

Digsy didnt mean to come of the way your response suggest's you've taken it. Sorry dude.

[Mosko111]

Awesome stuff! after going through all the planning to get it running this year you would have learnt a whole heap, and now knowing that theres a few tweaks here and there you can do, i'm sure it will be even bigger and better in 2012

I also had a random thought before, (i cant remeber track names as ive only been there once) but, where there's the first creek run up from the last camping ground up towards cals and Crampy's climb, could there be an engineer designed "Ramp" placed where the large waterfall is, where you can cross or turn up into the second half of the creek run?? if it was made wide enough, mounted via cement/ bolting it would be quite safe!
Now i cant rember exactly how much of a drop off that waterfall is but i do remember looking over and thinking "man it sucks thats halfway up the track" and then "i wonder if some nutter would ever attempt to do a vertical winch up that" Is just a thought as that would make a HUGE long ROCK abundant run for the racers!!

[mickyd555]

as a competitor that caused a major traffic jam for the mod class guys after turn 3 i understand the need for a solution to keeping the track clear. we blocked the track good and proper and before i knew it there musta been about 6 cars jammed up behind me This was not more than 20 mins after the driver briefing in which we were all told that if we broke and where in the way we would get "bumped" to clear the track. Not one car attempted to clear my shit tin out of the way and I was unfortunately stuck like a turtle on his back and had to wait for a marshall car to help out.

I think the best course of action would have been for a competitor behind me to drag me out of their way so they could continue on (i would have done it to any one of you if the positions were reversed, and i would not have asked, you just woulda known i was there when the winch was dragging you outa the way)

I think as competitors (lets not forget this more than one car on a track stuff is fairly new) thats what you have to be willing to have happen in this form of racing, cars break, not even nissans are unbreakable so when it breaks just be willing to have happen what happens and as the guys in the not so broken car be willing to drag the broken car outa the way.


Thanks to Brett, Mitch (and a massive thanks to Sandy for putting up with them!!) and everyone else who helped to put this together, what a great event that will only grow in the years to come should they be kind enough to continue to organise it, Ill either be there racing or helping next year mate.

[Dover]

I did personally see the bunting lifted for a buggy - but it is now obvious it was never the intention of the Event Organisers - and I'm not knocking Marshalls in any way - these volunteers make these events!

If you saw this happen then it must have been ME that did it.
Maybe i wasn't fully aware of the way it was going to be run because i wasnt at the briefing due to running around like a boofhead.(and supplying people with generators)
Anyway i promise it won't happen again.

[digsy]

Laugh!
You did a great job Ben! I'll forgive you for it - this time... He he!

Again - I had a great time @ KOTR!
Met some really cool people there!

Viva Dirtsports!!

[WICKED]

I think the best course of action would have been for a competitor behind me to drag me out of their way so they could continue on (i would have done it to any one of you if the positions were reversed, and i would not have asked, you just woulda known i was there when the winch was dragging you outa the way)

Micky thats stupider than any thing I have EVER said
You can't just " i would not have asked, you just woulda known i was there when the winch was dragging you outa the way"
It's racing I get that, BUT ! If you haven't bothered too inform the driver what your doing how do you know there not hurt? Whats too stop the driver shitting themselves and slamming reverse (broken or not) and taking out the whole front end of your car? How are you going too know that the Navi isn't about too open the door as you winch and then being run over or dragged "out of the way" by you?

Safety first!

[XTREME MMM]

all feed back is welcome and there are a few good points made and taken on board .
i dont know of any bunting being lifted in the buggy class but i may be wrong and we will have to address that .
i do know i made the decision to move the bunting to let some cars around in the extreme mod class because they still have panels and alot of glass in these vehicles .it would be to dangerous and i dont think we can go down that path with this spec of vehicle.
we are listening to all constructive comments and ideas and we have already started planning for next year .

cheers brett

Hi, as a spectator I was very surprised to see bunting lifted (in front of trade stands) to let vehicles around, when there was enough room for another line. If there was not it would have been in their best interest to assist, this would also keep spectators happy.
What was even worse was the bunting being moved in by over a meter after Chris Wood took a different line and made it work, so next time around when Chris went to take the same line it was not there, due to bunting being moved in. He was as surprised as I was, as course had been set.

As I said the other day in private email that I was a phone call away for my comments, but that call has not yet come Brett.

Cheers
David

[Dover]

What was even worse was the bunting being moved in by over a meter after Chris Wood took a different line and made it work, so next time around when Chris went to take the same line it was not there, due to bunting being moved in. He was as surprised as I was, as course had been set.

Yes the course had been set.
But in case you may not have noticed someone had taken that section of bunting out avoiding the obstacle and broken the star picket off.
So yes it was placed back in closer because i did it. The reason i did it was because the obstacle was not being driven but they were just knocking the bunting over to drive around.
So possibly you didn't see the whole thing or your happy with people driving over bunting to avoid an obstacle.
Either way i made the decision on the day and so be it.
Chris didn't have a problem with it as i have spoken with him a number of times since this.
Also like to say that from my memory the bunting was lifted for Mod Class and if it was lifted for a buggy it was because a mod vehicle was stuck.
Which brings back to the safety issue, if you want to see people get hurt in this sport then you can have my position next year and let people get hurt because i would love to get into our comp and car and drive instead.

[Giggles83]

The reason i did it was because the obstacle was not being driven but they were just knocking the bunting over to drive around.

Thats pretty much how i saw that too. Made sense to me, defeats the purpose of bunting if you can just drive over it no?

[Rolly]

all feed back is welcome and there are a few good points made and taken on board .
i dont know of any bunting being lifted in the buggy class but i may be wrong and we will have to address that .
i do know i made the decision to move the bunting to let some cars around in the extreme mod class because they still have panels and alot of glass in these vehicles .it would be to dangerous and i dont think we can go down that path with this spec of vehicle.
we are listening to all constructive comments and ideas and we have already started planning for next year .

cheers brett

Hi, as a spectator I was very surprised to see bunting lifted (in front of trade stands) to let vehicles around, when there was enough room for another line. If there was not it would have been in their best interest to assist, this would also keep spectators happy.
What was even worse was the bunting being moved in by over a meter after Chris Wood took a different line and made it work, so next time around when Chris went to take the same line it was not there, due to bunting being moved in. He was as surprised as I was, as course had been set.

As I said the other day in private email that I was a phone call away for my comments, but that call has not yet come Brett.

Cheers
David

Dave,

It sounds like you havent been told the complete story of what happened with Chris Wood getting a penalty for the bunting. In drivers briefing, I made it quite clear that the bunting was there as a guide and if it was taken out diliberatly to avoid the obstical, you would incur a 2 minute penalty. On that lap, Chris took out 2 sections of bunting and I went over to his pit area and gave him a warning and he was told if it happened again then he would recieve a penalty. On the next lap, he did exactly the same thing to avoid the wombat holes and his vehicle hit the bunting peg again. We had no problems with any other vehicle in regards to the bunting. The penalty that Chris recieved, had no bearing on the outcome of the race or any of his lap times because Al Tierney was still quicker.

As for lifting bunting when a vehicle is broken or rolled and being recovered, i cannot see a problem with this as it is the safest thing to do. Myself and my officials have to make that decision whether anyone thinks its right or wrong is their opinion but i think we did the safest option in these situations. We are listening to all competitors and spectators and we are learning this new format and i am sure we can stream line it and make it better for all next year.

As for the phone call, I did call you back Sunday night and left a message and I tried again on Monday with no response.

Cheers,
Brett

[rockcrawler31]

I loved the event and think I was the only car to drive there, race and drive home again?

Al

Nope, the red devil drove there, got fixed then drove 1000 kays home.

Is this you Milo? I remember you doing this at a previous comp, but unsure if its you

Yep that's me getting a head start on next morning's pain. " the punisher" Got a proper workout that night

j Stuff about bumping and track bunting etc

Cheers
Danny

While personally i'd love to see the true style of U4 competition here, while we have the limited numbers of sponsors, competitors and population to support cheaper products to get these rigs built, we need to have a little flexibility. To get this style of racing running initially we need more than one class of truck. For me that means running my extreme mod class truck, which is totally unsponsored and paid for by my PAYE only wage. I was literally there on the very last cent i had that day, so while i had the SCA team smash the shit outta the back of my truck on the course i didn't mind. (even though i had moved out of his way and pulled over to let him pass mind - what the fark was going on there ) What i would mind would be not getting the opportunity to move my junk off the track when we were in the way and clearly a danger to ourselves and others. I think that mitch got it right in letting us move off track a bit when he did, because to have guys slamming into my truck over and over again would have ended my participation in this sport (both financially and by choice).

So in sum, as long as we need to run two classes then we need to run things a little differently. When there's enough people running high end rigs to get sponsorship for most competitors and cheaper components available, and an insurance atmosphere that is conducive to it then i'm all for "rubbin's racing" attitude

Personally i'm over having a full bodied rig, and i'm considering my options for future racing. And i can tell you that toyota or nissan or any other Jap parts are NOT going to be on the menu.

[rockcrawler31]

As an addendum regarding the moving the bunting thing, for a while there my pile of junk WAS the bunting

Rolly - i can only imagine how much effort this has been for you and mitch. Great work and for now i think you had everything pretty much spot on.

For those that are calling for more hard crawling, just bear in mind the DNF rate. having 80 percent of the cars DNF is a good sign that the course is hard enough for our current crop of vehicles and components. If it gets harder it'll go back to previous years where everyone just said it was simply way too hard. If you want to crawl hard shit go to Toperi or TT. this is as much about speed as it is about rocks.

I think as competitors (lets not forget this more than one car on a track stuff is fairly new) thats what you have to be willing to have happen in this form of racing, cars break, not even nissans are unbreakable so when it breaks just be willing to have happen what happens and as the guys in the not so broken car be willing to drag the broken car outa the way.

I agree mate, i was so farken gutted to not even finish a lap after all that work. But in hindsight, getting shunted was actually pretty funny and i wouldn't have an issue getting winched outta the way. In fact i felt like a bit of cur for getting in the way of everyone else where i was, so a winch would have been welcome. I heard that someone did eventually drag you out of the way?? Let's not forget that it's okay to race hard and want to win, but it's also ok to still be gentlemen about it all.

M

[XTREME MMM]

As for the phone call, I did call you back Sunday night and left a message and I tried again on Monday with no response.

Cheers,
Brett[/quote]

Sorry but I did not see any missed calls on my phone, please try again.

Cheers
David

[Troll00]

All I can say is it is a good format and it will get better the more you run them, risk managment is not easy to do when your dealing with high speed offroad comps.
A suggestion for the night run is once they have made it to the top, let them drive back down it, but you would have to make a rule for give way to the upward travelling rigs or use a keep left rule

[Dover]

A suggestion for the night run is once they have made it to the top, let them drive back down it, but you would have to make a rule for give way to the upward travelling rigs or use a keep left rule

The good thing about Cals is there actually other sections very close by that could be used and i know for a fact there is also a good step up climb up further if you go straight istead of left to Crampy's.
Next year would love to see cars drive up Cals, up to crampy's to the top turn right and hook it along the dirt until you get to the next gully down, go down that then turn left step up the waterfall there then up to the top again and right up to gonzos, turn right down gonzos then go all the way to the bottom of cals again and then do the run again. This would make the start and finish at the bottom of Cals, will give the spectators more to see and give the drivers more wheeling/rock time.
It would then make it worth it to set up all the lights as it took longer to set the generators up and run cable than it did for the event to run.
I'm sure ideas will be discussed for next year and some fine tuning for this event will only make this style of sport take off.

[WICKED]

G's Benny your almost as popular as me! They'll start deleting you on Facebook soon

[Dover]

G's Benny your almost as popular as me! They'll start deleting you on Facebook soon

You already have you FB unfriender.
Oh well i can't have 400+ friends like everyone else.

[johnsy86]

theres always going to be "Should Coulda Woulda's" out there, in my oppinion weekend was a great success as no one was hurt and eveyones still talking bout it, good effort Brett, Mitch and all involved and look forward to next year.

[mickyd555]

Micky thats stupider than any thing I have EVER said
You can't just " i would not have asked, you just woulda known i was there when the winch was dragging you outa the way"
It's racing I get that, BUT ! If you haven't bothered too inform the driver what your doing how do you know there not hurt? Whats too stop the driver shitting themselves and slamming reverse (broken or not) and taking out the whole front end of your car? How are you going too know that the Navi isn't about too open the door as you winch and then being run over or dragged "out of the way" by you?

Safety first!

lucky for you your in a different class to me then hey benny!!!

you need to understand sarcasm a bit champ, the point i was trying to get across was that as competitors we need to be willing to use our 4wding skills to keep the race going.

[mud guts]

Sounds like i missed a great event!! Further on what Dover said, you could break up crawling and speed sections into 2 different circuits, make it so u if you think theres going to be or can see a blockage you'd be able to bypass, and up to the driver at which time the allotted laps of each circuit was drivin?

[Modified Toy]

Thanks to Brett and Mitch for a great event .

There will be always things you can change and there will always be people passing comments that were not there,as a compeditor all the racing ran pretty smoothly and we did get hung up behind slow trucks but they all ways moved out of the way when safe ( thats all you can ask for) we did get let under the bunting once in the play area but there was no where else to go as there was a car on its side trying to recover and if we waited for it would have been 5-10 min + before we got moving again so i belive it was the right call, we had a lot of fun and see you next year.

Russell