starting an engine after its run on oil - updated with pics

[shorty_f0rty]

Hey fellas,

today the 40 ran on oil from the turbo and I think I was able to starve the engine of air before it went bang so I'm hoping there hasnt been any permanent damage. Now its home but I want to get it back into the shed but I'm wondering what I can do to make it burn less of the oil in the intake when I start it next...

I have cleaned up some of the oil that i could get to with a rag.. If i start the engine I could regulate the air intake with my hand again to stop it going full bore.. and let it burn the oil off thats already in the cylinders..

I guess if it was the turbo seal that caused this (the turbo is only 17months old from brand new) then I'd have to catch the oil still coming from the turbo when the engine is running..

I just want to avoid doing stuff in the street so I can get it up the drive way and into the shed so I can pull it down and check it out further..

Cheers,

Andrew..

Oh and I guess the other question is why would a seal on the turbo go when its 17months old from brand new, its a garrett so I would of thought they'd last a bit longer than that. I had run it at 11psi but I thought that'd be the engine not the turbo sufferring from too much boost..

[tas80]

The first thing that comes to mind for me with the turbo oil seal is oil supply, I haven't run a Garrett myself but I believe they usually require a fairly small restrictor in the oil line to regulate flow otherwise they get too much oil flow.

Thankfully I haven't had to restart an engine in this situation but I'd be removing as much intake pipe work as possible to clean with degreaser, might be worth removing glow plugs or injectors checking engine turns over freely, possibly remove rocker cover as well to ensure the same with rocker gear. Sounds like you've covered the rest of it, thick patch of rubber sheet on hand to go over the air intake if it runs away.

[shorty_f0rty]

Thanks Tas80.. I rang the MTQes who distribute the garretts and they are telling me its a sleeve bearing and doesnt require a restrictor.. got put through to the service dept and they're telling me its gonna be cheaper to buy new than get it fixed as it'll require a full teardown and refit... not what I wanted to hear..

Wonder what would cause it to go? I dont think its done 5000kms between oil changes so dont know if oil quality would likely to affect the seal..

I'm running 11psi and it came with 15psi new.. so its not like i'm running more boost then it can handle..

[Ricko]

That's bullshit. A so called quality turbo shitting itself after 17 months is unacceptable on a basic setup. It's done bugger all km's and on low boost. Give them a mouth full and demand a replacement. People listen to people who yell.

If you get no love, ditch garrett and investigate a suitable Mitsubishi TD04 or TD05 turbo. The Nissan fellas are all going this way and having good success. A lot of aftermarket kits use these too.

Anyone else have info on a suitable replacement?

As Tas80 says, clean everything up and remove the crossover from the turbo so it can't spit more oil in, and you should be fine to start it and move it.

[Hilux_Ryan]

It should be OK as long as you dont give it too much. we had a Coaster bus at work that would run away, but only when you got up it and it got more blowby, also recently fitted a Mitsubishi common rail that poured fuel into the rocker cover and to intake via the PCV (lesson - check the fuel pipes on secondhand common rails, they leak inside) and once we fixed the issue and changed the sump oil it was fine.

I think you need to get enough airflow that it at least partially mists the oil before it will run on it.

[Ricko]

It's not all about warranty times. Have a read of this:

http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/t ... _guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shorty_f0rty]

interesting Rick.. I'll definitely look up that avenue eh.. To be honest I dont think I've even done 5000kms on it..

[CRUZAAMAD]

It's not all about warranty times. Have a read of this:

http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/t ... _guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cheers for that, hope i can hit up the guy that painted the pool, up for warranty repairs.. defects,

[shorty_f0rty]

Well i didnt have to pull it down so i could start it on the street.. was able to use the uzj100 to push it up the driveway and into the shed..

so now the teardown starts to find out wtf happened and to clean up the intake.

thanks guys..

[RED60]

Well i didnt have to pull it down so i could start it on the street.. was able to use the uzj100 to push it up the driveway and into the shed..

so now the teardown starts to find out wtf happened and to clean up the intake.

thanks guys..

Probably too late, but take GOOD fotos of what you find inside and post so the rest of us can see what's going on.....fotos may also help if you try to get the suppliers to come up with a replacement..... are you sure it's a genuine Garrett.... I've read before that one of the Chinese clone weak points is/are the seals....

[shorty_f0rty]

Bloody well better be genuine Garrett.. it was bought through East Coast Customs.

I spent 30mins and got photos of everything when I took it off..

From airbox to intake..
- turbo intake hose is kinked due to it collapsing when trying to starve of air.


silicon reducer onto the turbo intake

little bit of oil on the turbo intake..


Hope its a genuine garret






I'd already cleaned up the inside of the intake


other bits
oil supply and adapter


oil return

[80's_delirious]

What size hose is on the oil return? Looks too small.
Does it have a nice straight path to the sump? Ie. No sharp bends

If oil can't get away freely, it can be a problem.o

[shorty_f0rty]

The ID of the oil return hose is approx 20mm with the pipe from the turbo slightly smaller and there are no sharp bends. The hose flows down directly into the sump.

[shorty_f0rty]

Rang MTQes this morning and they said its not the turbo that's likely to have failed but something in the engine causing the seal to go.

I need to check that the oil drain is fine and there are no restrictions in the airbox.. following that I need to get the turbo to them to pull down and check out..

[rockcrawler31]

Rang MTQes this morning and they said its not the turbo that's likely to have failed but something in the engine causing the seal to go.

I need to check that the oil drain is fine and there are no restrictions in the airbox.. following that I need to get the turbo to them to pull down and check out..

That's the biggest, most obvious load of fucking bullshit i've ever heard. Short of you putting grinding paste in the engine with your oil, or running a metric shitload more oil pressure than normal (which would show elsewhere), i call bullshit.

[shorty_f0rty]

Checked the oil return was fine by pouring about 500ml of oil down it without any issue.. checked the air filter too, while it was dusty there wasn't any blockages, i was expecting a tennis ball or something down there completely blocking the air intake but that wasnt the case.

So the turbo is being dropped off @ MTQ this morning.. with a heap of info in regards to the install, any thing done to the turbo and its usage afterwards. If MTQ still fail to come to the party I'll hit up the ACCC with the brief i've put together and see where that goes.. I just dont have the coin to spend on a replacement turbo so its all I can do at the moment.

[SCANAS]

That sucks Andrew, hope MTQ can come up with a resolution for you. FWIW i've had a few garrets rebuilt through Ben Hunt at Rotary Motorsport all well under $1000 few years (5+) back now since I was in the scene, but if he is still around he could be cheaper. As Ricko said Mitsu Turbos are very good too. Let us know how you go.

[hammey]

That 7/16 jic feed line has internal diameter of about 4mm.

I blew mine up due to oil starvation of the bearing. It lasted about 10mths on 18psi which did contribute.

I increased the dia of the feed line and monitored oil pressure.

Smitty

[shorty_f0rty]

Wondering if adding a restrictor is likely to prevent this in the future or end up starving it of oil as you mention there smitty...

I'm thinking though as it ran fine for approx 1500kms that its not the oil feed/drain that contributed but until i hear back from MTQ I wont know for sure.

[raptorthumper]

I don't think anything is wrong with the turbo. It's your crap inlet suction line that is sucking in and blocking at high flow, causing a big vacuum (which sucks oil past the seals). Turbo's aren't designed to run high vacuum on the inlet side.

Re-do the piping and re-run is my recommendation.


_

[shorty_f0rty]

Got the report from MTQ on friday while I was away camping..

Summary:
Piston ring seals are not a pressure seal and will allow oil to pass if conditions within
the system cause pressure from inside the bearing housing to force the oil out, or,
vacuum from inside the compressor chamber suck oil out.
After inspecting the turbocharger, especially the compressor side sealing which is the
area in question, I cannot find a fault with this turbocharger and suggest the excessive
oil from the compressor side of the turbo is a result of an engine issue. The root cause
of this failure should be found before re-installing a turbocharger to this engine to
avoid a reoccurrence of the same failure.

I can provide a link to the report via PM, just not keen to link it publicly as its got my address details in it.

[raptorthumper]

So I'm right!





-

[shorty_f0rty]

Picked up the turbo from MTQ today.. talking to them about it they suggest getting a compression test on the engine done to check its not pressurising the crank case and forcing oil back up through the oil return...

[SCANAS]

So did they rebuild turbo for free? replace? Say it's your fault? Ask why your bothering on a 3b < Jokes.

[oldmate]

pressurising the crank case and forcing oil back up through the oil return...

Otherwise known as blow by, and is a common problem when turboing these kind of high compression diesel motors.

You should be running an oil catch can between the rocker cover and intake. It will need emptying every so often, but will solve the runaway engine problem and keep the intake a fair bit cleaner.

[shorty_f0rty]

3B's vent to atmosphere so it doesn't recirculate blowby into the intake.. if the compression had gone would it pressurise the sump if it could get past the rings?

[SCANAS]

3B's vent to atmosphere so it doesn't recirculate blowby into the intake.. if the compression had gone would it pressurise the sump if it could get past the rings?

Sounds possible on a long drive.

[shorty_f0rty]

3B's vent to atmosphere so it doesn't recirculate blowby into the intake.. if the compression had gone would it pressurise the sump if it could get past the rings?

Sounds possible on a long drive.

The issue happened about 6kms from home so thats not what i'd call a long drive..

[SCANAS]

3B's vent to atmosphere so it doesn't recirculate blowby into the intake.. if the compression had gone would it pressurise the sump if it could get past the rings?

Sounds possible on a long drive.

The issue happened about 6kms from home so thats not what i'd call a long drive..

Actually now that I think about it and knowing it vents to the atmosphere, then I can't see it presurizing that much. I had a 2H turbo that pressuriesed badly but the motor was just really tired and the tuning was out, way to much fuel.

[raptorthumper]

I still think it's your intake plumbing. Quick check is flush all old oil from inlet tubing, remove air box and run with just a Pod filter straight on the turbo inlet.

Your inlet tubing is very long, combined with a possibly blocked air filter and you will definitely suck oil past the seals.

_