Winching basics

[chimpboy]

Hi,

Despite my formidable 4WDing prowess and my almost frighteningly comprehensive understanding of all things automotive, I am actually kind of a newbie to the 4x4 thing.

I've never seen a winch in use, or used one.

So, where can I see an outline on some winching basics?

Are they normally operated by the driver from inside the cabin, or are they operated by the driver standing by the winch, or are they operated by a 2nd person standing by the winch while the driver stays at the wheel?

Whatever the answer to the above, how does this work with a PTO winch, which I assume has to be operated by the driver from inside? Or a hydraulic winch which i assume is operated from next to the winch?

Please let me know. One day I am gonna buy one and I want to have a clue when that day comes.

Jason

[Screwy]

Electric winches are controlled inside the cab by the driver though all winches come with an out put to enable a controller to plug into them rather then the driver trying to drive and winch at the same time. Many ppl use these controllers.

The PTO works inside the cab. First u need to get out and lock it in gear next to the winch and then put the transfer in neutral and first on the main and drive. This drives the winch. The winch is engine driven.

Now i may be wrong about how the PTO works, correct me if im wrong, im only going off the coupla times ive seen em in action. I prefer electric motor powered winches.

cheers

Screwy

[V8Patrol]

Winches come in .....

Electric ....... most comon
PTO ........... not so comon
Hydrolic ..... few n far between

Electric...
runs off of the batterys in the vehicle and will "winch" regardless as to whether the motor is running or not. Usually controled by a hand held controler which has a 3 position switch.....spool in ...off ...spool out.
The hand controller usually comes with about 3 metres of cable so it can be operated by either the driver or by another person outside the vehicle.
Various sizes are availiable to suit the weight of the vehicle from a 4 wheeler AG bike to a Holden Sububrban.
The actuall winch unit has a sliding gear selector which has two positions ..... engaged for winching under load and free spool for running the cable out to a designated point ( tree !! )
Biggest drawback is battery drain so a duel battery setup is recemended and or a high charging alternator fitted aswell.


PTO....
PTO= Power Take Off
The winch is driven from a drive unit attached to the side of the gearbox and is generally driven through a seperate drive shaft form the unit to the winch. The motor MUST be running in order to run this type of winch.
Biggest drawback of these winches is when the motor stalls so does the winch....... but atleast you have a full charged battery to restart it !!


Hydrolic....
Usually a hydrolic pump is fitted to the front of the motor (IE:the crank)
and then hydrolic hoses run to the winch. Alternativly the pump can be mounted off of the side of the gearbox as in the PTO style winch. Again the motor MUST be running in order to run this type of winch.
Biggest drawback of these winches is when the motor stalls so does the winch....... but atleast you have a full charged battery to restart it again .... neither of the PTO and Hydrolic winches will work when you are in the middle of a river and the motor gets litterally flooded !! ( seen this happen )

Both the PTO & Hydrolic winches will pull as long as the motor is running unlike an electric unit that will slowly die under extreamly long pulls..... bit like starting the motor when the battery is low on charge.

I think you'd find most members here run an electric winch.

Hope this helps
Kingy

[Singo17]

Hi,

Despite my formidable 4WDing prowess and my almost frighteningly comprehensive understanding of all things automotive, I am actually kind of a newbie to the 4x4 thing.

I've never seen a winch in use, or used one.

So, where can I see an outline on some winching basics?

Are they normally operated by the driver from inside the cabin, or are they operated by the driver standing by the winch, or are they operated by a 2nd person standing by the winch while the driver stays at the wheel?

Whatever the answer to the above, how does this work with a PTO winch, which I assume has to be operated by the driver from inside? Or a hydraulic winch which i assume is operated from next to the winch?

Please let me know. One day I am gonna buy one and I want to have a clue when that day comes.

Jason

Go to pirate they had links to the Amercian Army Recovery manual a while back in the tech section also some good stuff on cable safety, types there use etc.

Most people use winches to self recover. We can open up a whole can of worms on safety with winching.

Majority prolly don't know that winching and driving is actually not a very safe practice (flame suit on) even though everyone does it and gets away with it when they should be using a snatch block. The shock loading on the cable and drum is multiplied by the vehicle gaining and losing traction especially on steep inclines as the truck slips and load up the cable. You see it all the time in competition with Plasma and sometimes wire BUT THAT IS COMPETITION doesn't mean we all should do it or need to do it.

When using it for the first time all I can say it "TRY OUT THE WINCH BEFORE YOU GET STUCK". Go somewhere and find an incline get all the gear you need shackles, tree protector, cable damper, gloves, winch rope extension, snatch block (Buy a good one ARB's is good). Then with whatever reference material you have try out the different combinations of hook up you can do with the kit you have and pull your truck up the slight incline for practice and familiarity.

You will learn things like how the angle from the anchor point to point snd then to the fair leads can mess with how the snatch block behaves. You will get used to some of the wierd and wonderful noises your winch makes especially with wire rope. If you have two winch rope extensions practice joining them.


As you said you are new to the game and with your new winch when you get stuck and want to winch the last thing you want to be doing is working out how it all works and wondering if you are doing it right with your car potentially in a position where you could damage it if you stuff up.


Points about the winch rope and the actual recovery. If you have been on trips with other you might or might not have picked this up dunno. One person and one person only is in charge of the recovery. Now that may be you in the car but I actually prefer it to be a spotter on the outside telling me what is going on.

Now that person should check all points of hook up. The anchor point the shackles the snatch block if in use and finally the second anchor point be it on the car or another tree etc. The person who hooks up should clear the onlookers before that. Give you the go ahead to winch and you and hime have discussed what you both think is going to happen to the car on winch and if your are going to drive and winch etc.

As soon as the cable is hooked up it should be considered live (even when it is slack, if the truck moves by itself the cable will go taught pretty quick) Before that happens all spectators bar those needed in the recovery (really should only be you and one or two spotters front and rear) should stand clear at least 1 1/2 the length of the winch ropes extended length. This will ensure that no one spectating gets cut in half (how many comps have you seen this NOT happen ) . No one should then cross the cable slack or taught whilst it is hooked up, Not even the spotters.

The only time the rope is safe again is when unhooked and even then there are hazards to keep an eye out for but a general rule of thumb.

When you get the next oportunity inspect your kit you used for damage if your straps are torn throw them out 50 skins for a new one is cheap insurance. If you are using wire rope look for kinks broken strands etc. By rights a kinked wire rope or one with broken strands should be binned many don't and get away with it, as long as you know that the rope with a kink or a strand break is no longer at its rated spec then take yer chances if you wish. (they take fark all to kink too)

There is more we could talk about in terms of when you do this type and when you do that type of pull but most of that is via experience.

Last one take your time, seen a few club trips where the recovery is running like a OBC SS for no good reason the car was safe etc. Recovery if farked up can be lethal. If done right is very simple and actually enjoyable as you are working your way out of trouble.

One last, last one. Some of the so called Aussie experts who wrote books on the shyt are full of shyt. They have used the "it worked for me therefore it must be right" approach where as what they preach is an accident waiting to happen. Some of the pics I have seen in 4WD magazines make me cringe as the shot for the shoot is more important than actually safely setting up a recovery. So be wary consider the above and yes for the most they have some good info but with common sense and understanding of basic physics all should be good and you will soon realise who is talking shyt and who is not.


DISCLAIMER FLAME SUIT ON " I don't care if you have done anything different to the above and it has all been sweet and have always done it that way. It is your body your decsion fill yer boots but I will be 1 1/2 the lengths of the rope away from your accident if things do go wrong."

[-Scott-]

I've never owned a (real) winch myself, but I've been involved in a few winching operations off-road, and when I did a DAP with my club they took us through winching too.

I think Singo covered it well - especially his disclaimer at the bottom.

It doesn't hurt to drape a folded tarp/heavy bag/heavy coat over the winch line - helps damp the whipping effect if the cable breaks.

Scott

[Wooders]

Winches come in .....

Electric ....... most comon
PTO ........... not so comon
Hydrolic ..... few n far between

Capstan.....VERY few&few between
Hand......Bloody hard work....
ComeAlong....not suited to recovery work (except emergency)
HiLift.....Even HARDER work

[suzukisam]

I've done absolute stacks of winching - there is a lot of hype out there and a lot of the 'safety rules' in winch comps are actually dangerous (i.e. not spooling in the cable tidily before the load is taken up etc.

If ya want my simple version - buy a winch that is way over rated for your vehicle, try spooling it in and out a few times in the drive. Always check your winch before you leave home.

don't stand near a loaded cable and stop if the winch sounds crook and use the pulley block.

I have a 6000lb electric on my 2200lb zook and it is ok. I stripped the gears too many times in my 3500lb winch...

if you are driving (should be only first low and with no throttle) and winching at the same time and the cable goes slack DO NOT push the clutch in or stop winching just keep the winch running until it tensions up again, if it doesn't tension up you are thru the obstacle!!!
Most people push the clutch in, the cable goes *bang* and that's how you break cables


Lester

[bazzle]

Joina $WD club and attend a driver / winch training day..

Hand on ... Worth its weight in Gold..

Bazzle

[Thor]

i printed this out and leave it in my glove box. i give it to my passenger to read on the way to 4x4 stuff hehe

http://www.warn.com/corporate/images/90/UserManualSRC.US.readers.pdf

[Thor]

oh and adding to what Singo17 said... always look for an alternative like snatching before going to the winch.

[Singo17]

i printed this out and leave it in my glove box. i give it to my passenger to read on the way to 4x4 stuff hehe

http://www.warn.com/corporate/images/90/UserManualSRC.US.readers.pdf

Thats a handy little document, Jason when you get one and take it out with you take the linked PDF, has all that is relevant to safely winch.

[Singo17]

Winches come in .....

Electric ....... most comon
PTO ........... not so comon
Hydrolic ..... few n far between

Capstan.....VERY few&few between
Hand......Bloody hard work....
ComeAlong....not suited to recovery work (except emergency)
HiLift.....Even HARDER work

Spanish Windlass is a really good one too if you have no hand winch and wanna move a car sideways a little. Just remember use natural fibre rope!

[Wooders]

oh and adding to what Singo17 said... always look for an alternative like snatching before going to the winch.

Actually I disagree with that one - becuase tehn people tend to use the winch as a last resort to recovery - ie mking the winch work that much harder.....

[chimpboy]

Cool, thanks for all the input. I'm not in a hurry to get one, it's just that I like to let things swoosh around in my head a while before I take action.

(Yes, they swoosh, it's the sound of empty space...)



Jason

[Singo17]

Cool, thanks for all the input. I'm not in a hurry to get one, it's just that I like to let things swoosh around in my head a while before I take action.

(Yes, they swoosh, it's the sound of empty space...)



Jason

Mines not quite a swoosh but yeah I know what ya mean. It is just called research the topic before you jump in. No harm in that, in fact its bloody good darwinism behavior I reckon.

[landy_man]

oh and adding to what Singo17 said... always look for an alternative like snatching before going to the winch.

Actually I disagree with that one - becuase tehn people tend to use the winch as a last resort to recovery - ie mking the winch work that much harder.....

Agree...and add that too many times people give the snatch strap a harder time to avoid using the winch. I have seen many people using too much speed and power while snatching. If a gentle pull on a snatch won't get you out, it is safer to use the winch.

[Thor]

oh and adding to what Singo17 said... always look for an alternative like snatching before going to the winch.

Actually I disagree with that one - becuase tehn people tend to use the winch as a last resort to recovery - ie mking the winch work that much harder.....

Agree...and add that too many times people give the snatch strap a harder time to avoid using the winch. I have seen many people using too much speed and power while snatching. If a gentle pull on a snatch won't get you out, it is safer to use the winch.

Oay i stand corrected on that one. i guess you just have to look at each unique situation to know when to use one or the other..

[Big Red Toy]

Winches come in .....

Electric ....... most comon
PTO ........... not so comon
Hydrolic ..... few n far between

Electric...
runs off of the batterys in the vehicle and will "winch" regardless as to whether the motor is running or not. Usually controled by a hand held controler which has a 3 position switch.....spool in ...off ...spool out.
The hand controller usually comes with about 3 metres of cable so it can be operated by either the driver or by another person outside the vehicle.
Various sizes are availiable to suit the weight of the vehicle from a 4 wheeler AG bike to a Holden Sububrban.
The actuall winch unit has a sliding gear selector which has two positions ..... engaged for winching under load and free spool for running the cable out to a designated point ( tree !! )
Biggest drawback is battery drain so a duel battery setup is recemended and or a high charging alternator fitted aswell.


PTO....
PTO= Power Take Off
The winch is driven from a drive unit attached to the side of the gearbox and is generally driven through a seperate drive shaft form the unit to the winch. The motor MUST be running in order to run this type of winch.
Biggest drawback of these winches is when the motor stalls so does the winch....... but atleast you have a full charged battery to restart it !!


Hydrolic....
Usually a hydrolic pump is fitted to the front of the motor (IE:the crank)
and then hydrolic hoses run to the winch. Alternativly the pump can be mounted off of the side of the gearbox as in the PTO style winch. Again the motor MUST be running in order to run this type of winch.
Biggest drawback of these winches is when the motor stalls so does the winch....... but atleast you have a full charged battery to restart it again .... neither of the PTO and Hydrolic winches will work when you are in the middle of a river and the motor gets litterally flooded !! ( seen this happen )

Both the PTO & Hydrolic winches will pull as long as the motor is running unlike an electric unit that will slowly die under extreamly long pulls..... bit like starting the motor when the battery is low on charge.

I think you'd find most members here run an electric winch.

Hope this helps
Kingy

Hydralic wiches tend to be run of the power steering pump, and they aren't as common as electric.
A commerical hydralic winch brand is 'ox' and they are very strong, i would recommend electric for a petrol and a hydralic for a diesel chugger as they seem to keep running in water. Ox winches are great!

[ORSM45]

Electric winches are controlled inside the cab by the driver though all winches come with an out put to enable a controller to plug into them rather then the driver trying to drive and winch at the same time. Many ppl use these controllers.

The PTO works inside the cab. First u need to get out and lock it in gear next to the winch and then put the transfer in neutral and first on the main and drive. This drives the winch. The winch is engine driven.

Now i may be wrong about how the PTO works, correct me if im wrong, im only going off the coupla times ive seen em in action. I prefer electric motor powered winches.

cheers

Screwy

a mate has a thomas PTO winch.

typically cruisers PTO drive is from the transfer case, the GQ PTO winch is operated by putting the gearbox in neutral. as its run off the gearbox not the transfer. if you want power to the wheels select a gear. with the gearbox in neutral, the faster you rev the engine the faster the winch spins.

MaccA

[Bush65]

I read the posts quickly so I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone mentioned that you *must* have several rope turns around the drum before taking the tension - the rope anchor point on the drum is weak.

In principle, hydraulic systems could be better than electric for winching - compact and light winch, no brakes required, good control etc. And, there is no reason why a hydraulic pump could not be driven by an electric motor.

[ORSM45]

i have thought about that too bush65

have an electric motor run a power steering pump.

wouldnt be the cheapest way to go but would work well. could move the electric motor to a cleaner area, so it wouldnt get full of crap.

there is a company called 'cut snake' that makes electric/hydraulic winches. they draw max 75A. but cost alot to buy.

http://www.bta4wd.com/category29_1.htm

MaccA

[chimpboy]

i have thought about that too bush65

have an electric motor run a power steering pump.

wouldnt be the cheapest way to go but would work well. could move the electric motor to a cleaner area, so it wouldnt get full of crap.

there is a company called 'cut snake' that makes electric/hydraulic winches. they draw max 75A. but cost alot to buy.

http://www.bta4wd.com/category29_1.htm

MaccA

They look good... however, just thinking, an ox hydraulic winch is comfortably under $2k, whereas these are sometihng like $4k.

Surely for the $2k difference there must be existing 12V electric hydraulic pumps that could be used to drive an ox winch? Specifically, I am thinking something used from a forklift.

Hmmm.

In fact there might be other benefits to having a hydraulic pump on board; I will just try to think what they are...

Jason

[Bush65]

A while back on pirate there was some info on electric driven powersteer pump package of a subaru - I don't know if it is available out here.

If anyone wants to seach for this on pirate, if I remember it was in general 4x4 from oldscout (and had pics).

[chimpboy]

A while back on pirate there was some info on electric driven powersteer pump package of a subaru - I don't know if it is available out here.

If anyone wants to seach for this on pirate, if I remember it was in general 4x4 from oldscout (and had pics).

Hmm, interesting, it appears to be a model called an XT6, known here as a Vortex and not worth much $$$... this is just from google, not pirate... Being a fairly small car, it may not be a really grunty pump.

Still, it's good to know that such things exist. You never know when you'll be trying to find something like that!

Now how on earth would you find the specs for the electric pas pump on a subie vortex?

edit: *apparently also shares parts with a brumby, dunno if this extends to the motor and power steering set up...

edit: *i realise this is a digression, i just find this kind of oddball stuff interesting!

edit: *actually, let's say you want to add power steering to your sierra or whatever and can get the rack but not the pump... hmm... is this an answer?

Jason

[ORSM45]

forklift idea isnt bad.

found this site. probably why the electro/hydraulic is so expensive. 4.5L pump for $2,950

http://www.outbackmarine.com.au/MasterP ... ?TypeID=96

[chimpboy]

forklift idea isnt bad.

found this site. probably why the electro/hydraulic is so expensive. 4.5L pump for $2,950

http://www.outbackmarine.com.au/MasterP ... ?TypeID=96

Yeah all I could find online was marine stuff too... but marine stuff always costs a bomb.

Jason