To Lock or not to lock

[Fkahb]

When should and shouldn't you have your manual hubs locked. Will it do any damage to have them locked all of the time, even when doing 100k on the highways?

The Nissan manual says not too, however I would appreciate others views on this and what impact leaving the hubs locked will or will not do.

Thanks for any tips.

PS Its for a 96 Navara 2.7D

[Daisy]

No damage, just more fuel being used due to the front diff being 'rotated'.

Not recommended thou

Just before you arrive to the track - good idea to put it in lock. so that you dont get stuck in the middle of the rut/mudhole and find that you're still in 2wd, then it gets messy

[HeathGQ]

generally, you shouldn't drive around with teh hibs locked. The friction causes heat, and the lubrication effectiveness decreases. It is recommended to run the hibs in for a few k's each week to make sure oils are being moved around.

[BIG GQ]

Not recommended. Besides just try it. Drive to the local shops doing 60kph or above and see if you could handles driving all the time with the horrible vibration that it makes

[SiKiD_01]

ok, although i dont have a nissan, the principle should be the same.

when you have your hubs locked, and you're in 4wd, the 'drive' comes from the motor, through the gearbox, through the transfer case, through the drive shafts, front and rear, then through the diff, (pinion driving ring), and then through to the wheels.

ok, seems all good.

now when you have your hubs locked, and aren't in 4wd, the 'drive' goes though the motor, through the gearbox, through the transfer, out the REAR drive shaft, into the diff and through to the wheels.

now for the front? there is no drive, so the road/ground is rotating the front wheels, as you drive, the the wheels are 'driving' the diff, (now the ring is driving the pinion) and then through the front drive shaft into the transfer.

ok, but the problem is in the front diff. some/most have a high pinion rear diff, and a low pinion front diff. this is why you shouldn't drive on hard roads, like bitumen, in 4wd, as the result is WIND-UP of the drivetrain.

i hope this is making sense.

so even though front and rear diffs are the same ratio, with a high and low pinion, there is always a difference.
so with the front wheels driving the diff, apparently the pinion dousen't like this very much.

some people say it's ok for speeds up to 40-50km/h, and not much faster than that. thats for locked hubs in 2wd.

personally, i agree, as i drive a vitara, and with locked hubs, in 2wd, i can't go much faster than 50km/h, as the front diff starts to whine, and louder as the speed rises, sort of like when a diff has no more oil in it.

and before anyone says anything, my front diff does not leak, and has correct amount of oil in it. its also an aluminium one, so that may make the whine a bit louder??? not sure.

and i've also had to replace a couple of front driveshaft seals in the transfer from wear.

so basically, theres more wear in the front ring/pinion or diff, and seals.
other than that, i'm not sure of any other problems.

hope this helps.

[-Scott-]

I would avoid it for fuel economy reasons, but I'm not sure there's any other reason not to.

A few years back I was with a group of my brother's friends when one turned his Hilux diesel into a boat anchor. The car needed to be towed 500km back to home, so I recommended they remove the rear tail shaft to avoid having the ring drive the pinion all that distance. Out came the manual for the car, and the towing section specifically mentioned that it wasn't necessary to remove the shaft.

Just another 2c.

Scott

[Shadow]

well a diff is built to be driven in reverse, so it is designed to be in the above mentioned conditions is it not?

and in reverse your actually loading up the diff, unlike the load associated with turning the drive shaft (fuck all)

the speed might be an issue though.


as others have said, fuel efficency will be worse and its really not necessary, how often do you get bogged coming out of woolies carpark ey

[Wooders]

Heck jeeps these days don't even get locking hubs....and it doesn't "hurt"....but it does mean that becuase the front end is always being turnd that:
1. You'll be wearing bearings/seals/etc faster relative - but it's not dramatic.
2. By turning all the time this is creating more driveline drag and as a result you will use more petrol.

Accept the above any you can on most 4bees lock your hubs all the time....personally I can't wait to swap hubs onto my TJ

[Rainbow Warrior]

I found no problems running my old Landog without hubs, I put a set on and it took me a week of playing around to notice any difference. Then I put a Lockrite in the front, from them on due to manual steering I had to have the hubs unlocked, when I parked in the city being a softtop, I used to lock the hubs, because if anybody tried to knock it off, they wouldn't get it halfway out of the park spot before changing their mind.

[chimpboy]

There is no hidden reason not to have your front hubs permanently locked provided that you do not put the car in 4WD on hard surfaces.

It will theoretically cost you a bit of fuel economy but I think you'd want to try it to see if it really made a meaningful difference.

The wear question is an open one - I suspect it's just as bad to have the front drivetrain components running very rarely as it is to run them all the time.

It's also advantageous to be able to change to 4WD from inside the cabin, which you can do if your front hubs are already locked.

Personally I lock my hubs in at some convenient point before I go off-road for example if we all meet at a servo or whatever, I lock them there and then do the last bit of road driving with them locked (but with the transfer case still in 2WD).

If I frequently switched from 2 to 4 and back again - like, once or twice a day - I'd probably just leave them locked all the time.

Good point from RW about the lockrite though. If you get one of those you might need to unlock the hubs whenever you're on bitumen, even if you're in 2WD.

Jason

[Rainbow Warrior]

Good point from RW about the lockrite though. If you get one of those you might need to unlock the hubs whenever you're on bitumen, even if you're in 2WD.

Jason

Actually even with power steering my front LSD makes the steering heavy in 2WD.

[ORSM45]

...some/most have a high pinion rear diff, and a low pinion front diff. this is why you shouldn't drive on hard roads, like bitumen, in 4wd, as the result is WIND-UP of the drivetrain...

other way round with the hi/low pinions.

not sure if im reading your post right, but im guessing your explaining why its bad to have it in 4wd with the hubs locked, on road.

locking the hubs in is fine. MQ patrols came out with fixed hubs. fuel consuption/acceleration are the only concerns.

to get the oil moving in your diff you can also put the transfer in 4wd but leave the hubs UNLOCKED. otherwise as sikid said wind up when trying to turn will result.

i usually just lock them in at the gate or at the servo close to the tracks.

MaccA

[Monty]

If you leave your hubs locked there is no problem. As others have mentioned some trucks dont even have locking hubs. However if you break a cv joint this is bad because u cant simply unlock the hub to get out of a bad situation.

All you are doing by locking the hub is making the inner axles move the diff move and the front tail shaft but as its got no power coming from the transfer box its not going to stuff anything. It is good to lock your hubs at least once a month so that your seals dont go on you

[Rainbow Warrior]

If you leave your hubs locked there is no problem. As others have mentioned some trucks dont even have locking hubs. However if you break a cv joint this is bad because u cant simply unlock the hub to get out of a bad situation.

All you are doing by locking the hub is making the inner axles move the diff move and the front tail shaft but as its got no power coming from the transfer box its not going to stuff anything. It is good to lock your hubs at least once a month so that your seals dont go on you

Actually when I broke a uni in the front of the Landrover even with the hubs unlocked I lost half my left hand steering lock, made the trip home interesting, with a combination of good luck & management.

[Monty]

For a trip home you would if possible take out the cv joint. I was more talking about on a hill climb when u broke it and wanted to back down unlocking the hub will possibly give u better steering

[GQ Toy]

Had Tritons as work cars, used to leave the hubs in all the time as I would need it periodically, work paid for fuel only thing I noticed was the pinion seal would slowly leak and the hubs were almost impossible to unlock as they were stiff from no use

[Wooders]

Good point from RW about the lockrite though. If you get one of those you might need to unlock the hubs whenever you're on bitumen, even if you're in 2WD.

Hmm well as I said my TJ doesn't have locking hubs - but I do run a lockright in the front....and too be honest you'd never know it's there unless you engaged 4x4.....and I've done a lot of driving on a range of surfaces and even on the slipperiest dirt it's all but invisible in 2wd...

[bj on roids]

now for the front? there is no drive, so the road/ground is rotating the front wheels, as you drive, the the wheels are 'driving' the diff, (now the ring is driving the pinion) and then through the front drive shaft into the transfer.

ok, but the problem is in the front diff. some/most have a high pinion rear diff, and a low pinion front diff. this is why you shouldn't drive on hard roads, like bitumen, in 4wd, as the result is WIND-UP of the drivetrain.

some cars have a high pinion front and a low pinion rear, i cannot think of any applications that would favour the one you describe, nor is there a vehicle that came from the factory like this.

[bj on roids]

Heck jeeps these days don't even get locking hubs....and it doesn't "hurt"....but it does mean that becuase the front end is always being turnd that:
1. You'll be wearing bearings/seals/etc faster relative - but it's not dramatic.
2. By turning all the time this is creating more driveline drag and as a result you will use more petrol.

Accept the above any you can on most 4bees lock your hubs all the time....personally I can't wait to swap hubs onto my TJ

you will be wearing the bearings and seals, to a minor degree, although I would challenge how noticeable it would be.

There is many vehicles that have 2WD option and no hubs, whether they are constantly locked, or whether they are auto hubs, it doesnt seem to have a great ill effect. As to the guy with the nissan who complained about it, I would say the vibration is from bad suspension issues rather than the hbs issue.

[bj on roids]

There is no hidden reason not to have your front hubs permanently locked provided that you do not put the car in 4WD on hard surfaces.

It will theoretically cost you a bit of fuel economy but I think you'd want to try it to see if it really made a meaningful difference.

The wear question is an open one - I suspect it's just as bad to have the front drivetrain components running very rarely as it is to run them all the time.

It's also advantageous to be able to change to 4WD from inside the cabin, which you can do if your front hubs are already locked.

Personally I lock my hubs in at some convenient point before I go off-road for example if we all meet at a servo or whatever, I lock them there and then do the last bit of road driving with them locked (but with the transfer case still in 2WD).

If I frequently switched from 2 to 4 and back again - like, once or twice a day - I'd probably just leave them locked all the time.

Good point from RW about the lockrite though. If you get one of those you might need to unlock the hubs whenever you're on bitumen, even if you're in 2WD.

Jason

Interesting points Jason, I like the advantage of shifting to 4WD on the fly and not worrying about the hubs, as an interesting case study about my experiences, read on:

My work ute a 1997, 3.0L Diesel Hilux, with IFS front end, has had the front hubs locked in for the last 60,000 kilometres that I know of. Before then, who knows..... Perhaps up to 300,000. It sees sand 4WDriving twice a week, and a lot of road kilometres, highway and other, loaded all the time. It has no serious front end issues relating to wear and tear, or directly related to the front hubs being locked, nor does it have bad fuel economy as a result of the hubs being permanently locked in. There has been no additional wear and tear on the front end as a result, there is no vibrations related to it, and overall it has caused no problems. YMMV.

It has quite large 31x10.5" tyres on it. These used to scrub bad on the mud flaps until they got torn off. The larger tyre diameter, in thoery, should increase front end wear, bearing failure, and reduce fuel economy, due to engine loading and rolling mass increases. This has not been the case, the upgrade from the OEM 27" tyres has seen no advanced failure of mechanical components, except the front mudflaps. The vehicle has travelled close to 300,000 kilometres and has only ever needed a major brakes overhaul, as they were worn completely away, due to sand getting stuck in the pads grinding the discs away. I almost forgot, the body also received a major overhaul, due to the rust, from all the beach work, broken glass, and some SERIOUS dints, from a bad driver(s).

[Wooders]

Heck jeeps these days don't even get locking hubs....and it doesn't "hurt"....but it does mean that becuase the front end is always being turnd that:
1. You'll be wearing bearings/seals/etc faster relative - but it's not dramatic.
2. By turning all the time this is creating more driveline drag and as a result you will use more petrol.

Accept the above any you can on most 4bees lock your hubs all the time....personally I can't wait to swap hubs onto my TJ

you will be wearing the bearings and seals, to a minor degree, although I would challenge how noticeable it would be.

There is many vehicles that have 2WD option and no hubs, whether they are constantly locked, or whether they are auto hubs, it doesnt seem to have a great ill effect. As to the guy with the nissan who complained about it, I would say the vibration is from bad suspension issues rather than the hbs issue.

BJ,
The prob with the TJ's is that the hub & bearing are a single non-servicable unit, so when the bearing goes you need to replace the hub too. I've just replaced my passenger side hub/bearing assembly and because of the large cost I'm opting for Warn Hub conversion as I know my driver side is just about gone too.
As for the differnce in life between lockable and fixed hubs - well a lot of guys that have performed the swap do report a slight (but noticable) drop in fuel consumption and now have replaceable bearings.....

I agree vib problems would be more likely badly setup or worn driveline/ suspension. But worn bearings can cause a front end wobble in extreme situations.

[Wooders]

now for the front? there is no drive, so the road/ground is rotating the front wheels, as you drive, the the wheels are 'driving' the diff, (now the ring is driving the pinion) and then through the front drive shaft into the transfer.

ok, but the problem is in the front diff. some/most have a high pinion rear diff, and a low pinion front diff. this is why you shouldn't drive on hard roads, like bitumen, in 4wd, as the result is WIND-UP of the drivetrain.

some cars have a high pinion front and a low pinion rear, i cannot think of any applications that would favour the one you describe, nor is there a vehicle that came from the factory like this.

I am not aware of any rigs with low pinion front & high rear - but it would favour a swb rig like the TJ, Sure a HP front is nice, but the driveshaft is long enough not to cause driveline issues on most lifts, but the TJ rear tail-shaft is so short that a HP rear WOULD be a benefit.....If only someone from jeep would listen

[Beastmavster]

My Vitara's previous owner had left the hubs on continuously. No noises or issues until recently when I had a stiff CV and an input seal failure.

There appears to be some additional wear, although considering the abuse it gets, the number of times it's been knee deep in water or mud and the 31"s you wouldn't be drawing any conclusions too quickly from it.

Certainly I didn't face the issues that SiKid mentions with his Vitara.

[r0ck_m0nkey]

Interesting points Jason, I like the advantage of shifting to 4WD on the fly and not worrying about the hubs, as an interesting case study about my experiences, read on:

My work ute a 1997, 3.0L Diesel Hilux, with IFS front end, has had the front hubs locked in for the last 60,000 kilometres that I know of. Before then, who knows..... Perhaps up to 300,000. It sees sand 4WDriving twice a week, and a lot of road kilometres, highway and other, loaded all the time. It has no serious front end issues relating to wear and tear, or directly related to the front hubs being locked, nor does it have bad fuel economy as a result of the hubs being permanently locked in. There has been no additional wear and tear on the front end as a result, there is no vibrations related to it, and overall it has caused no problems. YMMV.

I can pretty much compare myself to this experience.

I currently have a 02' 3.0L Diesel Hilux with the hubs locked in pretty much constantly, at the moment it has 60 000km on it and has had no problems. My previous 98' Diesel Hilux was run the same way and it had 270 000km on it when sold, again no problems. I pretty much leave it this way as i am constantly in and out of Coal Mines (and the "short cuts" home) and couldn't be bothered locking and unlocking all the time. These are company vehicles i may add.

Other guys at work do the same thing, and we all have a bit of weight in the back all the time aswell. I can't recall any problems with the front ends yet with the Hilux's and don't recall any with the Triton's either we had before switching to Toyota, which were run the same way. I havn't noticed any differences in fuel consumption with running the hubs locked or unlocked either.

[Rainbow Warrior]

Good point from RW about the lockrite though. If you get one of those you might need to unlock the hubs whenever you're on bitumen, even if you're in 2WD.

Hmm well as I said my TJ doesn't have locking hubs - but I do run a lockright in the front....and too be honest you'd never know it's there unless you engaged 4x4.....and I've done a lot of driving on a range of surfaces and even on the slipperiest dirt it's all but invisible in 2wd...

You have power steering I suspect, a lockrite in the front with manual steer is a pig, I tried to drive home in FWD after breaking the rear axle, it was not drivable even at 60kph on the road it would rip the wheel from your hands mid corner and take you across the wrong side of the road, I got a mate to tow me. I drove a mates Patrol with manual steer and a detroit in the front and it was much smoother & predictable.

[Wooders]

RW,

If you are talking removing the rear tailshaft & driving in FWD - yes I have done that and yes even with power steering it was a pig - changed lanes by itself with each power application/removal......

BUT then you'd have the front hubs locked and it's sorta out scope of general running with the hubs engaged

[chimpboy]

There appears to be some additional wear, although considering the abuse it gets, the number of times it's been knee deep in water or mud and the 31"s you wouldn't be drawing any conclusions too quickly from it.

"Knee-deep"? Only if you're nine feet tall... or did you mean "knee-deep for the driver while he is still sitting in the cabin"?

[markil]

i often forget to unlock my hubs too. just a thought that occured to me, what would be the effects of only leaving one hub locked (passenger side) and unlocking just the drivers side, when 4x4 is not needed? woulkd it be any less wearing on parts etc?