Fitting Mog Portals Under a Landrover (Sam)

[ISUZUROVER]

OK - I have been thinking, while I am in Germany of picking up some portals to put in my truck when I come back to Australia. Initially I was just thinking of buying the portal boxes and fitting them to flipped salisburies with MD lockers, but after speaking to a guy here who sells them he says usually the portal boxes sell for the same price as the whole axles - as the rest isn't worth much.

So, the problem with fitting them under a landrover (as well as getting rid of the torque tubes and everything else) would be the passenger side drop of the front axle.

Anyone have any solutions? Would it be possible to clock a series or LT95 T-case??? I'm trying to think of what the easiest way to go would be - just ship the portal boxes only to australia and build hybrid axles or use the whole axles.

Volvo's would of course be easier but I doubt I could get them anywhere near as cheaply.

[ISUZUROVER]

Oh and if anyone knows where I can get a really good deal on sea freight for a pallet up to 500kg please let me know.

[red90]

Well, I'm no help on the conversion. As I understand it, the rear is right offset and the front is left offset standard. If you kept it that way, you'd have to change to an offset style t. case.

Anyway, on shipping... What I would suggest is to offer a group buy on MOG axles on this board. Tie up the shipping in the cost. IME, you will end up paying for a 20' shipping container regardless, so it might as well be full and then the shipping cost is spread out and becomes acceptable.

[daddylonglegs]

testing

[daddylonglegs]

Ben I will leave the conversion instructions to Sam, but my advice would be to see if you can flip the front mog housing and bolt the diff in upside down to maintain the offset to the right. You would have to have a new inner axle made with the third spline for the difflock dog clutch. Rhis is easily done with Volvos. With little modification you can offset them either way. As you know, the Lt95 t/case is cast as a unit with the gearbox, so clocking it is very complicated. the LT230 could be bolted in upside down, but the range change and difflock selectors would be constantly submerged in oil, and you know how Landy's like to leak.
I am not sure, but I think the unimog ring and pinion ratio is 3.54 :1, same as Rangies or 110's, so you could probably build up a hybrid axle and just use the Mog portals and CV's.
Points to ponder. Regards Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Cheers John and Bill.

The axles I am considering are 421's - and I can't really find much info on them - they are apparently as strong as a 404, ratio is 6.5:1 or 6.8:1, and are 1450mm wms-wms (but a bit more by the time I do a disc conversion).

The dealer said that it is possible to cut the axle housing and flip it. So that looks like the easiest option, since the back axle is in the right place. And yes bill I will have to get a new axle machined with the locker splines on the correct side.

Decisions, decisions...

[daddylonglegs]

Are you considering a street legal conversion Ben? If so, what size wheel and tyres do you intend to use? Will a 16 inch rim fit over the portal box without going to radical and possibly illegal offset? Remember, the smallest mog rim was 18 inches and usually 20 inch. and also bear in mind that the Yanks, who probably make the disc brake conversion kit do not have to worry about inconvenient matters such as legal wheel offsets.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Are you considering a street legal conversion Ben? If so, what size wheel and tyres do you intend to use? Will a 16 inch rim fit over the portal box without going to radical and possibly illegal offset? Remember, the smallest mog rim was 18 inches and usually 20 inch. and also bear in mind that the Yanks, who probably make the disc brake conversion kit do not have to worry about inconvenient matters such as legal wheel offsets.
Bill.

Yes Bill I want to keep the rig street legal. I was planning on running 36" tyres (maximum diameter of a 9.00x16) as it is just about impossible to get approval for anything that is bigger than the largest factory tire fitted in QLD. I don't have WMS measurements of Land Rovers at the moment but with a disc conversion the mog axle will be 1600mm approx (62"). I am thinking this may be a bit wide with tyres on. Sam runs 15's on his 404's though, but with a fair bit of offset.

[GURU]

I would suggest it better to fit the mog axles complete, as it would be more cost effective in the end. and easy to do. rear would be a straight bolt in ?
Just flip the front diff like you said, I would say it's easy to do (but I haven't seen one).

Would you possibly get away with running a prop shaft at the angle to the front diff if you didn't flip it? I assume you would keep selectable 2wd/4wd so vibrations wouldn't be a problem? just something to think of.

[ISUZUROVER]

I would suggest it better to fit the mog axles complete, as it would be more cost effective in the end. and easy to do. rear would be a straight bolt in ?
Just flip the front diff like you said, I would say it's easy to do (but I haven't seen one).

Would you possibly get away with running a prop shaft at the angle to the front diff if you didn't flip it? I assume you would keep selectable 2wd/4wd so vibrations wouldn't be a problem? just something to think of.

I think the biggest deal would be the WMS-WMS measurement. I don't want to go over about a 62-65" track as some of the tracks I drive can be pretty tight. If I tried running the front without flipping it, the propshaft would be right where the sump wants to be. The problem with flipping mog axles are that they are double wall. The outer is steel and the inner is stainless or some other non-magnetic steel.

[daddylonglegs]

Ben, The double wall stainless steel bit has me baffled.
Do these axles have pneumatic difflocks? and are the axle housings of the 2 or 3 piece bolt together design, rather than the 404 banjo style?
I think the inner stainless tube is the outer cylinder of the concentric pneumatic difflock actuator, and if so then it would be a very difficult job to adapt these diffs to a Landy because they are basically all cast construction. If you have a choice go for 404 axles or just use the ends of the 421's on landy axles.
Bill

[Strange Rover]

Are the 241s really that narrow???

I think the easiest way would be to go with an F truck drivetrain like what I put in the mogrover. Then you run the stock diffs with the stock axles.

The other way to do it would be to just ship the portals and the inner axles. You should be able to machine the stock axles down to the rover 24 spline easily (you can with the stock 404 axles anyway - you can actually get 1.31in 30 spline out of them).

I wouldnt flip the front diff and get a custom axle - it just sounds expensive although a few US companies do actually do this.

I run 15in rims with 4in backspace on 404 drum brakes. I machined a fair bit of the outside of the rim though.

Sam

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi...!

Can I chuck a bit in here too..? (The Argies left around 90 'Mogs behind in '82 & some of them are still about down here...the neighbours got several, & we were up there the other day 'cos we hoped the tray off one might fit this Dodge we have...)

The chassis is same width as a Landie 31& 1/2 ".
Those portal axles rely on those tubes to act as part of the torsion links, & you can stick really big wheels on them fairly safely like that.
I'd try & get a rolling chassis with the gearboxes if you propose to use the axles & sit your Landie on it..... ? More dough I know, but the axles
that are down here are all air over hydraulic brakes as well as air difflocks, & a lot less engineering to set up safely for Aus dept of transport satisfaction...

..Just a thought ...

[Red Ibex]

[quote="ISUZUROVER"]

Anyone have any solutions? Would it be possible to clock a series or LT95 T-case??? quote]

Ben

How about a remote mount transfer box ? LT230 ?
These guys in England do all kinda things with transfer boxes, not exactly what you are after - but they will be worth a call
http://www.milneroffroad.com/Tbox.htm

I've heard that 421 axles are early and therefore hard to get parts for

Hope it helps

[ISUZUROVER]

Thanks a lot for the input Sam and everyone else. I will have to have a think about it...

Yes Sam - looks like the track is pretty narrow - roughly 1500mm in the factory manual.

Nick - the rules in Qld (Australia) for vehicle modifications are fairly complex and I believe it would be easier to get an axle swap approved than a body swap (need full engineering drawings for the latter).

Red Ibex - thanks for the info - and yes, I think that 421's aren't exceptionally common, but don't think they are that old - 70'ish

[daddylonglegs]

Ben, I don't know about Qld but when I got the Hybrid engineered here in Vic early this year, the rule was that the body had to be the same year or later than the chassis. It did not have to be from the same manufacturer.
A friend of mine is currently building a CJ7 Jeep body on Rangerover Chassis with Volvo Axles, and we fully expect this to engineered and registered. Also in Vic the maximum allowable wheel and tyre size would be determined by the largest factory option available for the axle, not for the vehicle that the axle is fitted to, which in the case of say 404 mog would be pretty big when you consider the agricultural tractor tyre options that were offered.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Cheers Bill.

The body rules must be different here - i.e. I have seen S1 bodies on Rangie chassis fully approved, etc - but the ADR's for the chassis apply.

The body swap rules in qld were recently severely tightened, and now AFAIK full CAD drawings of chassis and body and mounting brackets must be supplied before permission is given for a body swap.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

......You blokes'd love it over here..!! (As yet)..!, there's no MOT/WoF, 'shaken', CoR or anything.....we get around with twin wheels outside the body line, & all sorts....

Having said that, some of our road surfaces are so crap, that people replace vehicles fairly regularly now, & keep them maintained as if there were a test, simply for their own safety & security; there has so far only
been one fatality in 20 years due to an unroadworthy vehicle crash (drop arm came off steering box on an elderly Rangie) & long may it stay that way.

...The number of 110s the military guys flatten is frightening....& the bulkheads ALWAYS collapse..

Yes, I'd heard that some states in Aus had some fairly strict rules about
conversions, & I did wonder if that was a possible problem as I typed that suggestion......I don't suppose there's too many Unimogs in Aus either...?

(A hell of a lot of the ones here went up to the ranges & had the crap blasted out of them right early on after the surrender....you know, the Argies had'nt even paid for them either (or about 70-odd G-wagen 4x4s
also brought over), anyway, it was'nt long before some of them came into civilian hands through the military surplus sales system, obviously having been cannibalised a bit....but not unrepairably.
..So some of these 'new owners' write off to Mercedes in Germany & ask about getting some spares ordered up..
Mercedes came back & asked for some serial no.'s to follow up on models(as y'do.....)

.."Hah.!! Zis vehicles ve haf not yet got zer moneys for...vould you mind paying for zem first....!!"

(I think they got the bits they needed via an agricultural dealer in UK in the end.....& of course (after the generals in the 'junta' were ousted later that year) Alfonsins government wanted to re-equip their Army & went to
Mercedes to ask for another order......they basically told them to '..go forth & multiply..'...you have'nt paid for the last lot yet....

....& the Argies said.."..you can whistle!...the feelthy Breetish got all them, -go ask Mrs Thatcher to pay for them.."

(...Think a few Merc execs took early retirement over that one.!!)




(..You know, we still have'nt exactly got those axles fitted to your truck yet, have we Ben....??)

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

.....I just went 'walkabout' round bit more of site.....There's a whole heap of discussion along this sort of thread in the 'Other Makes' forum
Ben....especially as to axle scources close to home for you...??

See topic 'Mog portals vs. Volvo drops' or something like that, its called.

[daddylonglegs]

Yes Nick, The topic of portal axles has come up quite a few times, even on the back pages of this Rover forum, but aside from the big U1700 mogs that the army uses, The smaller unimogs 404, 421's etc are almost unheard of in OZ, so tech knowledge about them is pretty scant.
In fact, when you consider the size of Oz and the varied terrain, the lack of "Technical Vehicles" that were brought into this country over the decades is mindnumbing.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

(..You know, we still have'nt exactly got those axles fitted to your truck yet, have we Ben....??)

Yes I know Nick, I am in Germany for the next 2 years or so and during that time I have to decide on what to build (and buy the bits if they need to be bought in Europe) for when I get back. It seems that portals are a lot easier to come by than suitable planetary hubs. Or if I want to deplete my stock of series parts and give my neighbours lathe and mill a workout I could build my own like Bill has (see the volvo portals under a RR thread on this page).

I would really love to have a replica forest rover but it would have to be capable of regular hard offroading (no problem there), being approved and registered (also OK) and doing at least 80km/h (50mph) on the highway for 150miles or so to get to where I go driving (may be possible with less agressive tyres and a bit more engine power). So it is still an option. The brakes would have to be very good though.

And fascinating waffling as always Nick. Old G-Wagens are very cheap in Germany but they are a bit rusty.

Oh and Bill, the mogs definitely seem to be constructed of a double walled axle tube - have a look on the www.pirate4x4.com forum

[daddylonglegs]

That's great for axle strength Ben, but not so good for us modifiers or for minimising unsprung weight though.
BTW, do you have a 4x4 while you are in Germany? And what is the status of offroading over there. I have heard that it is very restricted.
Regards Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Yes exacly Bill (although apparently it is possible to still modify them), so I am beginning to be steered away from mogs a bit. Although they are very strong, they are probably the heaviest option. I doubt I could break a Volvo portal axle setup, and the fact that they are more difficult to fit into a Land Rover gives them a bit less appeal, even though I can pick the mogs up for up for e800 a pair (about 1280AUD), plus another 1500AUD or so shipping to Australia. Still thinking about it though - working out the gearing calcs and engineering choices for each option.

I don't even have a car in Germany yet, let alone a 4x4. Yes, it is pretty hard to find places to drive, the only place is really a 4x4 park in France!!! about 2hrs drive away. You can pick up old, slightly rusty, G-Wagens here for about $1000AUD, but it is about as impractical as a series Landrover if there is no where to drive it.

So I will probably buy a (cough) car (cough) for the first time ever in my life, and save the 4x4ing for when I get home (though I will be doing some of the parts aquisition here). Though I do want to get to see a couple of the finnish 4x4 events and maybe a round or 2 of the WRC while I am over here.

[wilsby]

Ben,
don't know if that's what you're looking for, but you have Eurotrial in Dornbirn, Austria end of July. Lots of portaled prototype trialers there...

[ISUZUROVER]

Sounds great - is there a website??

[wilsby]

Yep, http://www.eurotrial.org/

[ISUZUROVER]

Cheers,

Any more good events to go to? What about in Sweden?

[Red Ibex]

so I am beginning to be steered away from mogs a bit. Although they are very strong, they are probably the heaviest option. I doubt I could break a Volvo portal axle setup, and the fact that they are more difficult to fit into a Land Rover gives them a bit less appeal, even though I can pick the mogs up for up for e800 a pair

Ben - I was confusing the 421 axles you were talking about with I think 411's. Damn these Germans - can't they use names and not numbers

I've been quoted almost e2000 for a pair of 404 axles, albeit - both fronts.
If you decide to let that set slip, let me know, I might be interested.

Oh - I've been to one Eurotrial in England a few years back - damn good day out - do it.

[wilsby]

You have trial events in the south of Sweden on Aug 14 and Oct 16. Both are the last events in their respective series. Fun, but local. More on http://www.offroad.se/art/trial04.asp.

If you're looking for action, I would check out Formula Offroad on the net. I'm not involved in it, but I beleive most events go in Norway and some in Finland. It's more or less vertical drag racing!

[ISUZUROVER]

Wilsby, thanks for all the info. I am here for 2.5 years so I will definitely make the time to go to a range of different events in different countries (Europe is great like that).

Andy - thanks, will let you know. I also was quoted e800 each for 404 steering axles.