Discount for OL Members @ Wholesale Autos in VIC

[bulldogy]

Hey Rodney
I have a toyota hilux surf and was wondering if you do the above mods to the a343f toyota auto??
Its the same as the prado turbo diesel i believe ??
I would be interested if so thanks
Bull

[Extreme_Trans]

I haven't done one for them yet but I have been asked about them. I need a guineapig to test one and to see if the valve body stops the Lock-Up from working is 1st and reverse.

Regards
Rodney

[CRUSHU]

booked in for wednesday 14th its nice to see a supplier go out of their way to make the pick up and retrieval of the car easier for those that work longer than average hours. top stuff

[TuffRR]

Rodney while we are on the subject of controlling a lock up converter. Is there any way to control the locking of a converter on a ZF auto in a rangie.

Yeah, what Ruff said.

[CRUSHU]

i have read that the convertor, when locked up, can stall the engine, if you come to a stop, with it locked. how big is the clutch in the convertor? i thought they were only the size of a 9" diff lsd plate, or there abouts. will using it at slow speeds do any damage to the lock up part of the convertor? or is it best to use it at road speeds? can it wear out? thanks

[bulldogy]

Rodney
Id like to be your guinea pig but im in perth spew .
Unless i can fit the manual lock up unit my mate is a electronic engineer so that would be no problem.How could i test it ??
Just another quick Q ive been told that the converter on the a343f gets very hot and is hard to keep cool im thinking of using a air cn condensor with twin fans do you think i will need to go thru the rdiator aswell or should this be enough i dont know much about the auto ???
Thanks
Bull

[RaginRover]

David I am way ahead of you and after discussions with the company I have make the Lock-Up Manual Control I am now seriously considering just doing them myself.
Regards
Rodney

I will make your product just give me a list of parts you use
and a wiring diagram and I will price it for you.

PM me with more info - I have all the required tools and access to Auto electrical wholesale prices

Regards

Tom

[MQ080]

I put this in the "Avalibility of engine braking with auto trans." thread
, however i think it's worthy of a cut and paste in here because there are greater concerquences for your transmission to take into consideration with this mod.

Being able to disengage a lock up converter electronically has some great advantages for the 4x4 driver, using it for retarding is opening a tin of worms so as to speak. To be frank it does not have the mechanical ability or durability to perform this task without causing major problems let alone expect it to be 100% effective and safe.


Most lock up converters should only apply in the top end of any driving range they are designed to reduce converter slip which can vary but as a rule about 8%.
The material to do the locking up is nothing like a manual clutch it is only 1mm thick and same consistency of transmission bands and clutches and it is common practice for these to burn out if any slip takes place. The reason why the previous mention of the Nissan overheating would have been due to slippage not the fact it was disengaged.
When the customer switched to petrol he would have had an increase in engine RPM and horse power and the lock up would have been in an acceptable lock up mode not semi
or partially engaged. To engage lock up at any speed lower than the 8% will only cause slippage and unwanted heat.
To add a manual switch to cause this to happen does not make any sense.
When you add extra weight to a vehicle such as towing or uphill driving applying a slipping lock up creates a tremendous amount of heat which is a killer in any auto. If the converter lock up should apply at 80 klms but in actual fact it is applying much earlier due to higher engine RPM and extra load the result is the torque of the engine is greater than the frictional ability of the lock up lining to apply 100%, you either get lock up shudder or slippage.

Many people blame the converter for this problem not realizing the burnt out converter is the result of the problem not the cause.
.
Unfortunately there are few tell tale signs to indicate a lock up is slipping until it is too late.

Toyota had a distinct problem of the converter clutch coming on early some times as low as 60/70 if you add a boat or a caravan it will come on even earlier. It is to the owners’ advantage if he could by pass the lock up and run the transmission at higher RPM it would prolong the life of the transmission; this is done in many transmission shops to bring the lock up on at about 90 or 100 klms. To do this manually would be an asset when towing.

Rodneys modification in this area is an excellent idea.
It is common knowledge in the transmission industry if a lock up comes on very early it will stall the engine.( When the engine is below acceptable torque band).

To apply lock up in a down hill application on an engine with low engine revs could be a disaster.
The problem being if it is applied early it will stall the motor as the motor does not have the low down torque to overcome the extra load applied by the lock up apply, no power steering and no brakes would only add to the drivers discomfort not improve the situation.
This is only a comment not a criticism. To use a lock up converter in any other application but to improve fuel consumption in the higher RPM range will result in early converter & transmission failures.

Removing the lock up could never lower the stall in fact it would raise the stall as it would be reducing rotating mass which equals additional horse power.[/i]

[GRIMACE]

I also would like to mention that goin down hill offroad in your manualy locked up Auto could be an issue if say you suddenly need to brake (as I do when sometimes the speedy still get to fast) your engine will stall.....nyah nyah ni nyah nyah MINE WONT

But seriously the last thing you want is to brake for an obstacle or to further reduce speed then have your engine cut out and find yourself at an ugly pace heading downhill or towards a tree etc etc.....


Maybe if you could adapt a automatic override switch for when the brakes are applied heck thats a pretty good idea shotgun thats my patent pendin

Anthony

[Extreme_Trans]

Hi Guys Rodney here AGAIN!

Anthony - Good thought with another brake relay but when we went to do this we realized while it would work well it had a major fault in it. You can stop Ok but your first instinct when you are ready to take off is to lift your foot off the brake peddle and what will happen when you do! Well the engine will stall because the Lock-Up will engage again while you at a stand still, can be over come by hitting the switch but I thought that it just starting to get to much to remember. Hard enough to concentrate when your really is the *hit. Lets keep it as simple and safe as we can was the reason behind not going down this road. It is factory fitted to most brand new 4X4's but this is off course for lock-Up's that only work in 3rd and 4th gears ( Just 4th in some cases ).

Bull - Your Toyota A343F transmission could be over heating due to a few things. Need to check that the cooler lines aren't restricted in any way such as crushed or crimped, you would be wise having a oil flow test done and also need to make sure that the lock-up is working. As with most 4X4's that run small diameter convertors in a vehicle that is quite heavy the convertor can generate an incredible amount of heat if the Lock-Up doesn't give it a chance to cool down. A large oil cooler is always a great idea but I don't think you need to run a Air-conditioning condenser, A bit big mate! Just get yourself a good cross flow cooler with 10mm fittings and you can mount it up front or between the radiator and the factory condenser, both work very well and Yes I would always run though the radiator FIRST as this helps to take some of the heat of the oil as well. Remember that the bottom of the radiator is the coolest and in the case of the cross flow you will find it on the intake end which is also the coolest. As for the lock-Up I need to do one in house first because in the case of the Nissan GQ, Toyota A442F and T/700 the Lock-Up and many others they won't work unless we have modified the Valve Body. They don't have a circuit that allows the Lock-Up to operate in 1st and Reverse. We have been able to get around them all so far but I simply don't know about The A343F. We have our U.S dealers giving us hell over this one so it is one my to do list.

Crushu - The plate is about 9 - 10 inches across. And in the case of the Nissan we have tested the convertor and lock-up pressure at 65psi min at idle and 120psi max with the Standard valve body. The Extreme Valve Body runs 90psi min at idle and 125 max. You do your math. 65 psi over a 10 inch apply piston with a 9 inch lock-up lining. THAT is an incredible about of apply pressure. The Toyotas are less and in the case of the old Hydraulic A440F transmission the low convertor pressure was and still is the number one cause of the Lock-Up lining being burnt out, They only run 25psi at idle and 35 psi at High RPM. We don't and can't make a kit for these. Well that's not entirely true, we can but elect not to, To big a job as it is a Hydraulic and not an electrical system.

Tom - Thank you very much for your offer but I can say that I have had some of the best response from every body about helping me out with this problem. Over the next couple of weeks I will tell you how I went, Thanks again Guys and Tom.

Ruff and TuffRR - Yes I have no doubt that this can be done with all the early ZF transmissions. ( Not the late ZF transmissions that have a ECT = Electronic Transmission Control ). The ZF doesn't seem to suffer from over heating problems so you can move the lock-up point on the early ZF's further up the rev range but once it's done you can't move it back unless we go back into the valve body again and change it. Any transmission shop should be able to do this so please don't think that we are the only ones, simply need to change the spring tension on the lock-up signal valve. Might need to have a spring made but that only take us 1-2 days at most to have made. We can also make these springs for other transmission shops if they need our help.

MQ080 - Well where do I start. The comment you made about the Nissan over heating due to the lock-up slipping and not because of any other reason seems a little unreasonable seeing that neither of us has seen his car. It needs to be looked at and tested, And to everybody else he meant to say the Toyota with the A343F transmission. ( Honest mistake). I am not a supporter of the theory you show with the lock-up. You say that you are more likely to generate heat if the lock-up is Engaged and is better when not engaged. This is simply not the case an I disagree strongly with this. I have been involved in some of the most rigorous testing and the lock-up can only generate heat if there is a problem and the Lock-Up is constantly slipping. There is a very tiny amount of heat that is released into the oil during the apply and even less during the release but the convertor generates much more while no lock-up is engaged at all. I did reply to your theory with this matter of not running a lock-up a while ago but can no longer seem to find it where it was posted? look I'm not going to get into it any further because it's not fair on either of us. I would rather talk to you about it over a phone call so we can both explain our theories, findings and development projects to each other and possibly come to appreciate each others work. We have played with super low stall convertors for some time now and have built them for the Nissan Patrols, Toyota Landcruiser and a great many other transmission like the T/700, T/350, T/400, 4L80E and have a great resect for the sort of knowledge required to get these sort of development products sorted without the old "bend the veins that will do it" attitude, we have even developed some stall speeds as low as 900Rpm so I can appreciate fist hand the effort that you have gone to. But here is not the place. Feel free to ring me any time you want.

Regards
Rodney

[RUFF]

Ruff and TuffRR - Yes I have no doubt that this can be done with all the early ZF transmissions. ( Not the late ZF transmissions that have a ECT = Electronic Transmission Control ). The ZF doesn't seem to suffer from over heating problems so you can move the lock-up point on the early ZF's further up the rev range but once it's done you can't move it back unless we go back into the valve body again and change it. Any transmission shop should be able to do this so please don't think that we are the only ones, simply need to change the spring tension on the lock-up signal valve. Might need to have a spring made but that only take us 1-2 days at most to have made. We can also make these springs for other transmission shops if they need our help.

Regards
Rodney

So if i sent you a Valve body could you modify it for me?

Also i have a ZF here that has been removed from a Burnt early Disco. What sort of $$ are we talking for you to go through this and can anything be done to beef these up? This would be used in one of our new Tube Buggies.

[bulldogy]

Rodney
Do you know of anyone in perth who can do the checks for me i find it difficult to find anyone willing to touch the surf they all say the autos are to difficult ?? I thought the new prado was the same maybe they just dont like surfs like the toyota guys lol.
thanks
Bull

[Extreme_Trans]

Rodney here,

Bull - Yes I do have a very good transmission shop in Perth that is great with this sort of thing and they work well with us as we have worked together on a couple of projects and he is particularly good with Toyota's. I will get his contact details to you. I am at home and don't have them with me. He is in Perth so that works out well.

Tony - What the hell is THAT! How did we go from needing the lock-up to come in later to me looking at these two ......... THINGS! hahaha Look I need to speak to you on the phone so I can ask all the questions I need to ask to get me up to speed with where what you are after and what you already have got and done so far. Ring me any time over the week end or at work next week and we will see what we can do.

Regards
Rodney

[RUFF]

No worries Rodney. Its fairly simple once you know our Group. My Tow rig is a Rangie with a ZF but we also build these custom Tube Buggies for Rock Crawling Comps. They mainly run ZF autos.

I will try and ring you over the next few days.

Have a look here- http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/gallery/ Should give you a little more idea as to what we get up to.

[GRIMACE]

Rodney - sounds like your really into this thing which is great
in regards to the auto bypass after apllying brakes I ment it turns it off completely then you must turn it back on to proceed or to be real tricky set it up to come back on at a certain wheel speed/revs


Anthony

[bulldogy]

Thanks Rodney
Bull

[Extreme_Trans]

Anthony - Well we thought about having the whole thing turn off and have to be manually turned back on which ideally the best system, I like this system even better than having it come back on at a certain wheel Rpm. The wheel RPM can't be done because the speed sensor just isn't accurate enough. The sensor can't really tell the difference between 1km and 8km and that is a lot when we are talking about the situation that we are trying to use it in. Would also like to leave the driver with some sort of control, eg - he or she might not want it on anymore after that point and it would be better for them to pick there own lock-up point so I think that the auto shut off system through the brakes is where I would like to concentrate.

The Auto Shut Off System would need a bit of working out as we have a switch that is illuminated and that has been manually turned on, so we first of all need to start here and work our way back. A re-arming system ( turn off and back on ) came to mind but a system that is more similar to a house safety switch would be ideal. The whole switch throughs it's self off, light goes out, you come to a stop safely and it's ready to be manually re-armed only if needed. I just don't know if there is a 12v switch that can do this?
Regards
Rodney

[CRUSHU]

you can use a push on/push off switch. not a click in/ click out switch, or rocker switch. similar to the vs commodore lpg switch. you can get them illuminated when on.

[CRUSHU]

sorry, wont work either you will need some kind of small microprocessor to do it.

[chimpboy]

The Auto Shut Off System would need a bit of working out as we have a switch that is illuminated and that has been manually turned on, so we first of all need to start here and work our way back. A re-arming system ( turn off and back on ) came to mind but a system that is more similar to a house safety switch would be ideal. The whole switch throughs it's self off, light goes out, you come to a stop safely and it's ready to be manually re-armed only if needed. I just don't know if there is a 12v switch that can do this?
Regards
Rodney

What you want is a momentary switch and a latching relay. The latching relay has two separate coils and requires a pulse of power to switch on and then another pulse of power to switch off. The indicator light would be hooked to the relay so that it's only on when the relay is on.

You'd use a manual button to switch the lockup on, and the brake signal to switch the lockup off.

The latching relay only handles small current; you'd still need the big relay to handle the main power.

The latching relay would not be expensive; under $10. You'd need to change your rocker switch for a momentary switch ie a push-button.

Overall the components would cost a little bit more but it still wouldn't be worth $195

If you want a diagram let me know in a PM. My (retired) father might be interested in making these for you, by the way, but I know you've had other volunteers as well.

The super deluxe model would allow you to override the brake signal and leave it locked up no matter what - separate switch, also easy to do. Kinda depends on driving style I guess. Or you could set it so it cuts out when you brake and then comes back on when you stop braking... hmm... dunno what's best. Anyway...

Jason

[GRIMACE]

Rodney - now your talking if you could get something like this done up I think alot of people would be interested and I would be happy to push people in your direction.

I like the saftey factor offroad to be of a very hi standard and I think that having it automatically turn off under braking and then need to be manually armed is alot safer then the driver having to switch it off then brake.

One thing that comes to mind though is some people whos cars are simply to fast on anything beyond a certain degree.
EG this new convertor thing I have is great on slight downhills but anything real steep and I still need the brakes as my car will get upto a good joggin pace..... so for some people its really gonna be a PITA and I would only recomend it to people who have the good low gearing otherwise I would reccomend they get what Len has done to mine and adjust there offroad drivin technique to suit.

[robbie]

I think that this brake cutout switch aint the best idea.. In Vic mud, when you are braking down a slippery hill (you are only feathering the brake) and leeting the engine braking bring your rig down the hill safely..

If the brake switch disables the lockup, your engine braking is gone.. your momentum increases and you may go into a slide..

Some people may like it - i.e. rock crawlers etc, but I dont know if it would be suited to all conditions..

just some food for thought..

[chimpboy]

I think that this brake cutout switch aint the best idea.. In Vic mud, when you are braking down a slippery hill (you are only feathering the brake) and leeting the engine braking bring your rig down the hill safely..

If the brake switch disables the lockup, your engine braking is gone.. your momentum increases and you may go into a slide..

Some people may like it - i.e. rock crawlers etc, but I dont know if it would be suited to all conditions..

just some food for thought..

I was thinking that too - I frequently use brakes AND engine braking. However, the thing could be set up with both options available, a "soft" lockup that the brakes cut, or a "hard" lockup that will never cut out.

This is the sort of shit I really enjoy designing

Jason

[CRUSHU]

maybe have it over ridable, as you would want the lock to disengage when towing, and coming up to a town, but would want it to stay connected when 4 wheelin. i plan on using mine for both things. there is nothing more embarrasing, than coming up to the lights at albury, after sitting on 110 for a few hours, and forgetting to put in the clutch!!!

[Extreme_Trans]

Yes that's a very good point you do need the brakes and the Lock-up at the same time because your engine braking is only limited by the compression of the motor ( same as the manuals ) as they still need to use there brakes a lot as well. The current system we have I still think is best as you have both already. In the situation that you would use a passive auto cut off relay would also be where you would wont both the lock-up and be using heavy braking at the same time so you wouldn't want the brake to shut the lock-up off or you would be re-arming dozens of times on the one very steep hill. Besides if you can stall the engine you must be in a fairly safe situation because you have manually forced the engine to stall in the first place. Beside the one thing we noticed is when the engine starts to stall you feel it going and can quickly turn it off. It might not be the perfect system but if you smart enough it is the best system. I have fitted several to Nissans that also have rock crawlers and had one chap show me a photo of his Nissan coming down a 32 degree hill with no one in the car!!!! He got out and ran down the bloody hill took 6 photos and started walking back up to the car! Before it got to him. I also tested this car when we did it and on a very steep road tested it's full engine braking speed and it didn't even show on the Speedo, must have been somewhere around 1km ( Couldn't tell you the angel of the hill ) worst case bitumen hill isn't that bad a hill I spose. I'll be honest here most of that was in the rock crawlers. They run circles around any lock-up system or low stall convertor. We had fitted all three to this guys car. He just had all the choices in the world. If I could go back I don't think that I would have fitted the Low stall as it just made it a little sluggish taking off from traffic lights Etc. We don't do the low stalls for this reason any more unless it is for a V8 engine conversion then you have to do it as the stall speed just becomes to hi.
Regards
Rodney