ULTIMATE LAND ROVER

[daddylonglegs]

There is a website called Ferret heaven on Yahoo that I am trying to join.
It would be easier to get into the Pentagon or Buck Palace. But anyway, some 4500 Ferrets were built and used by military forces in over 36 countries. If the Australian Army is anything to go by, for every complete vehicle bought there is at least one complete set of spares, so sourcing components shouldn't present too many problems.Price may be however.
Bill.

[Thonger]

Combat weight for the ferret Mk4 was 5,400kg.

[modman]

bill, maybe 'warick lord' has ferret scout cars, he seems to have plenty of old army surplus gear, at least he would know of anyone who would.
he advertises in one of the 2 4x4 4 sale picture books. someone may be able to look the number up for you? i don't have any copies around
david

[daddylonglegs]

5400kg's thats a lot of weight, Brakes should stop a Landy ok?
i will try Warwick Lord. I missed out on a Volvo c303 he had by 20 minutes
a couple of years ago. I have a horrible feeling that many of the Australian Army Ferrets were sold to Israel along with our Centurion tanks.
Warning to anyone contemplating using hubs and planetaries from tractors
the Engineer I spoke to years ago said you cannot use agricultural structural or open drveshaft components on a full road registered vehicle
without first submitting those parts for metallurgical engineering analyses.
apparently tractor manufacturers tend to cast things from lower quality grey iron, whereas auto manufactures use SG iron and forge things a lot more.
Bill.

[daddylonglegs]

My wife has just threatened me with unspeakable acts of cruelty if I attempt to build another vehicle, so I do hope there is someone else out there that will take up the challenge.
Bill.

[daddylonglegs]

Nick, In the early days, Marmon herrington concentrated mainly on Ford cars and trucks for his 4wd conversins. According to my book,
US Military wheeled Vehicles, by Fred W Crismon. early wartime GMC'
6x6's used the Timken split diffs and later in the war intoduced their own banjo axles.
Can you tell me how Roadless compensated for the different final drive ratios between various tractor makes and models when they used the same GMC front axle on all their conversions?
Bill.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Bill..!

Re what your wife told you...I guess you have'nt tried the 'shopping trolley' approach to gaining "significant-other approval" for projects..

.... ....Often mollified by '..Just think of how much you can get in the back...' Or '..You have the right of way in any car park..' Or '..No sane bus driver'll argue at the school gate..'...

Your regulators are real spoilsports are'nt they..? But good thing your engineer friend warned you beforehand.
(Frankly, I find it hard to beleive that agricultural kit could'nt probably cope with required stresses given the nature of work they are designed for; I'm reminded of the Continental 11.50x15 tractor grips imported here by the hundreds after the conflict for Land Rovers....no one knew that elsewhere, 'rules' said these were speed-rated to max 27 mph only.
...& that they were 'unsafe' over this speed...
(Uh-Huh..!! ...Good thing they're made for quarry work, I guess, 'cos some guys found they held better than radials on gravel roads
when fitted to V8 110's .....when doing over 100mph.....!!)

Re the GMCs I beleive there may have been two different diff ratios to pick from for Roadless.
The Ford/Fordson conversions all used a sandwich box between the gearbox & rear axle case that carried extra ratio-matching cogs & fed the
drive out the side for a propshaft to the front. (This was available as a kit
for in-the-field fitting to older & 2wd tractors as well) The 4wd's therefore are about 3-4" longer in the wheelbase (except the 'Ploughmaster' models which had their axles set back to place tractor weight over front more.)

The B-450 & others often had PTO or other flanged ports in the sides of gearboxes that Roadless could hang spur-boxes (also cogged to match ratios) in, so that saved re-engineering the whole mid-sections.

Also, final juggling was done with tyre size matchings.

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Nick,The shopping trolley approach wouldn't work with my wife. She is from Hanoi in Vietnam and they move complete houseloads of furniture on the backs of 125cc motor cycles over there.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Bill - Thanks for the info. Yes I think the planetary hub setup - ferret or something else - would be best but if you could make the front end of a D60 strong enough it would be easiest (maybe). The CTM u-joints used by the US guys would hold up but are $$$$$$$$$$$$$ (again check on pirate- I think they are abou 2000-3000 US for u-joints and axles). There is also someone making some D60 U-joints from 300m but again they are ridiculously expensive.

Dana Axles...

Nick and others. Yes the Dana 60 and Sals 8HA are almost the same. The casting is a bit different, the D60 only has a single pin diff (2 spider/planetary gears), and the D60's have much larger axles than salisburies - course 16 spline, 30 spline, and 35 spline 1.5" diam. People have also built them with 40 spline 1.7" diameter.

If you want info on D60's and genuine Dana axles - there is a BOM (bill of materials) number stamped on each axle. There are Dana websites where you can enter the BOM numbers and they tell you which vehicle it was from and which parts it uses. There is also plenty of good D60 info on pirate4x4.com - go to Bill Vista's tech section and look up the D60 bible.

[ISUZUROVER]

Dana axle info. I think the website to enter BOM numbers is...

http://www2.dana.com/expert/

http://www2.dana.com/expert/wc.dll?DSD~deabill~3~

And the diff ID and BOM location...

[ISUZUROVER]

The info you get is like this.

Model -> 1979 - - DRW G-VAN 146" WB - FULL FLOAT -
Bill Of Material Differential Type Ratio Ring And Pinion Kit Differential Assy Kit Differential Case Kit Diff Inner Parts Kit Right Hand Shaft Assy Left Hand Shaft Assy Change Ratio
603702-1 STD 4.56 706033-4X 706182X 706041X 706702X 41100-1 41100-1 Change Ratio
603702-2 STD 4.10 706033-3X 706180X 706040X 706702X 41100-1 41100-1 Change Ratio

[daddylonglegs]

Would you believe it has been well over 24 hours and my application to join the Ferret Heaven discussion group has not been approved yet?
They must have got wind that there may be people out there who want to canniblize their beloved steeds.
Nick, Re fitting lower ratio Dana ring and pinions, as low as 7.17:1 to salisbury diffs, Some dana 60 ring gears have larger bolts so you have to drill out the Salisbury carrier. Also, the outer pinion bearing sometimes has a smaller inside diameter, so you must use the Salisbury bearing cup and the Dana cone.
I don't have the bearing numbers at hand.
Bill.

[daddylonglegs]

After a bit of stuffing around on the Net last night I found out that the Ferret planetary hubs have six sun gears and a ratio of 2.4:1.
With 4.7:1 Salisbury or Rover diffs this would give an ideal final drive ratio of 11.28:1. The cross sectional engineering drawing that I have been unable to find again this morning suggests that the spindles, brakes, wheel hubs planetaries, and maybe even the Tracta Joints could be quite easily modified to bolt on to series or 101 landey outer swivel housings.
Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Interesting Bill, the only hard part will be finding a good set of 4 (maybe 5 if you want a spare).

This website shows a dismantled (broken) ferret planetary hub...

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/vinc005.html

And here is a ferret pic...

[Thonger]

5400kg's thats a lot of weight, Brakes should stop a Landy ok?
i will try Warwick Lord. I missed out on a Volvo c303 he had by 20 minutes
a couple of years ago. I have a horrible feeling that many of the Australian Army Ferrets were sold to Israel along with our Centurion tanks.
Warning to anyone contemplating using hubs and planetaries from tractors
the Engineer I spoke to years ago said you cannot use agricultural structural or open drveshaft components on a full road registered vehicle
without first submitting those parts for metallurgical engineering analyses.
apparently tractor manufacturers tend to cast things from lower quality grey iron, whereas auto manufactures use SG iron and forge things a lot more.
Bill.

The MK4's were upgraded to disc brakes but I think all australian ones were Mk2's with drums.

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Ben, Thanks for the pics. I looked on various websites all mornig trying to find a real pic of a planetary hub to no avail. It looks like someone has previously dismantled that hub to fit a seal and didn't clean the bolt threads and use loctite when bolting the sun gear carrier back on the spindle. I would say that collateral damage to any gear teeth were caused just after the sun gear carrier dropped off. As far as I am aware the end of the spindle with the holes does not seperate from the spindle. In fact that section takes full drive torque so it would be difficult to make it separate.
Yes Thonger, I got quite excited when I found out about the disc brakes, but a little deflated when I read that even 50 odd years after the Ferret was designed and although it has been out of service in western countries
for quite a few years now, they are in such high demand for third world military forces around the world. so getting hold of spares or a complete donor vehicle at the right price probably won't be easy.

Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Yes, I doubt you will get one very cheaply Bill if UK prices are anything to go by...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... eName=WDVW

But you can get a parts manual cheaply

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW

And don't even look at the price of this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW

[daddylonglegs]

Ben, An old wheeler dealer, Arthur Daley LandRover dealer type ,I used to work for who has frequented government surplus auctions for decades told me that many Ferrets were bought by farmers who thought they may be a good substitute for a tractor. but they were next to useless offroad, had relatively high gearing (34:1), no axle articulation,no difflocks and had a fluid flywheel which quickly overheated if you tried to pull a plow, so they were usually abandoned behind the tool shed, like a lot of old LandRovers after they broke one axle too many.
As a crosscountry vehicle, they are not much chop. I'd rather walk. All I want are the hub/brake assemblies. I wonder what kind of reaction I'd get if I posted that on the Heavy metal Website?
Regards Bill.

[ISUZUROVER]

Yes, I suspect that many of the ferret enthusiasts wouldn't like it if they knew what you plan to do with them.

Still you never know??? If you can find 2 sets I am interested...

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi...!

Sorry....have'nt been posting for a while. Hoping to get to these pics this week.....

(have found out a little more about the 'Dodge' Reynolds-Boughton tho'..
....seems they first started out doing their conversions using the old Mk1 & 2 Ford Transit cabs. The transfer box is their own, & seems that axle ratios are v.similar to 101". Dodge 50 cabbed ones came later.)


Ben, thanks for the dana site info...have'nt had a chance to check it out yet.....

Now, would Saracen APC's hubs be the same as Ferrets..they look it...??

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Nick, I thought the early RB's looked a bit Transit like from photos.
I don't think any ever made it to Oz though.
I could be mistaken, but I also thought that I read that they used a similar Transfercase to the Stonefield with non lockable fulltime 4wd. Was it Ferguson FF or Schuler ?
What happened to the photo of the swivel ? It was there this morning but not now.
I think the Saracen hubs are wider and heavier. they appear to protrude out from the wheel a bit more than the Ferret. I think I read on the heavy metal website that a Saracen hub and brake assembly weighs 330 lbs.

Bill.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Bill

Sounds like the Saracen bits must be same as Saladin/Stalwart then...& not for dropping on toes either.

Apparently the transfer case (as I read it) was an in-house design by Reynolds-Boughton themselves.....its got a lockable centre diff & in the case of these 50 Series ones, its air-activated.

I just got throughto the company today & now have a line of contact to make further enquiries....& to try for spares.

I did try to put the swivel up...but it appeared at our end not to have loaded....so I edited the post. (I thought it may have been a copyright pic, as it IS from another site, & have something on it to prevent re listing..?)

Anyway, here it is again.

[Thonger]

Hi Bill

Sounds like the Saracen bits must be same as Saladin/Stalwart then...& not for dropping on toes either.

Yep they all share the same running gear, for ease of production and development. And the saladin could stay mobile with up to 3 wheels blown off, aparently.

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Nick, no the photo isn't showing up, but I would hazzard a guess that they would be the same size swivel balls as a 101, seeing as how the British motor industry don't manufacture too many brands of 4wd's these days.
Hi Thonger,were you or are you still in the army at Puckapunyul ? Do you know what sort of a service record the Ferrets, Saracens, Saladins etc had ? Were they discharged with honors or were they dishonorably discharged like the Austin Champs and Humbers ?
Regards bill.

[Thonger]

Hi Nick, no the photo isn't showing up, but I would hazzard a guess that they would be the same size swivel balls as a 101, seeing as how the British motor industry don't manufacture too many brands of 4wd's these days.
Hi Thonger,were you or are you still in the army at Puckapunyul ? Do you know what sort of a service record the Ferrets, Saracens, Saladins etc had ? Were they discharged with honors or were they dishonorably discharged like the Austin Champs and Humbers ?
Regards bill.

I'm still in, and here at pucka. I'll ask some guys at work, have a few armoured guys I work with so they may know something. From reading some regt history's though I belive the ferrets only went out of service when the M113 APC's came in, sometime in the 60's. Plus there is the armour musem here at the school of tanks, can ask them for details.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

...Thanks for the note about the pic...had'nt seen it before...missed it; Will try & take one of our ones swivels when I do these other pics....its a bit mad here right now, & am frantically welding a damaged chassis that does'nt really appreciate jumping cattle grids with a 3.8 Perkins lump over the front end.......

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Bill & Ben......

...I was looking at a video the other night...had a Ferret on it at one point; the hubs were HUGE..!!

So looked in this book... says here Mk1 & Mk2's had 16" wheels & Mk3-5's had 20" ones....
So guess I saw a later model....it also had the 8 stud pcd.
Did the others have a smaller hub then...??

Have attached a pic of one of the 'tidier' surviving ex-argy 'Mogs taken in town today (fitted with local-style undercarriage setup)....

(Getting closer to Roadless pics...got grass seed shifted the other evening....!!! )

[daddylonglegs]

Thanks Nick, That is a mean looking Mog, I want one for Christmas.
I understood that the later replacement for the Ferret, with 20 inch wheels was called the Fox and was fitted with 4.2 litre Jaguar engines in place of the B60 Rolls Royce. I have never seen one in OZ so I don't know if the hubs are the same.
Bill.

[modman]

looks like it would float over most bogs wit a bit of power
what is its mainpurpose, is it cross country?
too many of those trucks on one track would create another panama canal
david

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi David....

Yes, originally, cross-country work was this truck's main task; it used to belong to our next-door-neighbour, (having been built by someone else )

He used it for load-carrying in & out of Stanley, & on his farm prior to the road being built, after which it was superseded by an MK 4WD Beddie....

Its changed hands twice since, & is still on original engine. The tyres on back are from an Eager Beaver forklift, & altho' some folk have tried having the big 'Everest's on all 4 corners, the twin-wheel setup offers better flotation after following the fronts & does far less damage (beleive it
or not..!!) than a 110" on 11.50 paddles.

It is also extremely stable with this arrangement, but funnily enough, they are vulnerable when lightly laden....!!
(...If nosed into a soft-edged ditch with no real load on back, the front can have difficulty climbing the cab/engine weight up the step, even with difflocks in, & once the cleats fill, ......thats it...!!
However, put 1-2 tons on back & go through the same place, chances are it won't need the difflocks...!!)

A local fencing contractor has one with same wheel gear, & drags a 4-ton box-caravan over brutally soft ground..as long as theres a ton over the rear axle.
The merc engine dvelopes its best torque somewhere round 2000 revs,
& with the gearing as fitted, I understand that they will fry the clutch before they stall on takeoff....Curiously, the clutch is same as that fitted to some David Brown tractors (& others..??)

The cab roof/backpanel on this one is fibreglass, but unfortunately, due to the quality of the metal used in the body, all the 'Mogs are now (at 25 years+ old), suffering from tinworm...tho this one used to get garaged so has held up better.