If you look back through the archives you'll see I have an unhealthy like for Nissan diffs...
The challenge has always been getting them to work in a TJ where the stock diff is passenger side centre.
Previous thought have always revolved around changing the rug to fit the diff - but now I'm wondering the opposite.....
Ie is it possible to unbolt the centre, and bolt it on upside down. Then cut the knuckles off & re-weld back on the opposite side - thus allow the remaining housing to be flipped over????
Yeah all the bracketry would need to be cut of etc - but that's the easy bit.....I'm more interested to know if there is any merit in this approach to shoehorning a GU diff under a TJ???
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Flipping a Patrol Diff?
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
Flipping a Patrol Diff?
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
Re: Flipping a Patrol Diff?
Wooders wrote:If you look back through the archives you'll see I have an unhealthy like for Nissan diffs...
The challenge has always been getting them to work in a TJ where the stock diff is passenger side centre.
Previous thought have always revolved around changing the rug to fit the diff - but now I'm wondering the opposite.....
Ie is it possible to unbolt the centre, and bolt it on upside down. Then cut the knuckles off & re-weld back on the opposite side - thus allow the remaining housing to be flipped over????
Yeah all the bracketry would need to be cut of etc - but that's the easy bit.....I'm more interested to know if there is any merit in this approach to shoehorning a GU diff under a TJ???
dude, you know the sticking out bit of the diff, ya know, where the crown wheel rolls around inside the housing?? yeah, you need to move it aswell, and both drain plugs on a nissan diff, cause the fill point is above the axle centre line....
why not, get a GU/GQ diff, and just cut the tubes off then weld them onto the other sides, obviously in a jig would be better, to get it nice and straight, but apart from that its all good right?
hands and mums dont count!!!
God of Magnificant Ideas!
Re: Flipping a Patrol Diff?
bj on roids wrote:why not, get a GU/GQ diff, and just cut the tubes off then weld them onto the other sides, obviously in a jig would be better, to get it nice and straight, but apart from that its all good right?
Yeah that's what I was thinking - don't flip it, just swap the axle lengths from one side to the other.
A bit fiddly but so is any other option.
Jason
This is not legal advice.
Ok lads so cutting & swapping the tubes isn't a massive undertaking huh.....If need be I wouldn't be adverse to some additional bracing....
More just what was doable as easily as possible....preferably keeping it relatively stock so standard spares could be used (eg shafts etc).....
Is there a preferred year/model to source??
Any recommendations of shops that could do this sort of fab work? I wouldn't trust my bird-poop welds
More just what was doable as easily as possible....preferably keeping it relatively stock so standard spares could be used (eg shafts etc).....
Is there a preferred year/model to source??
Any recommendations of shops that could do this sort of fab work? I wouldn't trust my bird-poop welds
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
craft diffs in granville do this sort of stuff all the time, if its done neatly, you shouldnt need custom length shafts either
just swap them round.
but if your going to spend all this money on custom axles, what about just fitting an atlas case ?
can't you index an atlas to output on the drivers side ?
that way you could just source a pair of gq diff complete from a 2.8TD wagon (4.6 to 1 r&ps)
a mate of mine picked some up for $500 for the pair in good nick
but expect to pay upwards of $1500
just swap them round.
but if your going to spend all this money on custom axles, what about just fitting an atlas case ?
can't you index an atlas to output on the drivers side ?
that way you could just source a pair of gq diff complete from a 2.8TD wagon (4.6 to 1 r&ps)
a mate of mine picked some up for $500 for the pair in good nick
but expect to pay upwards of $1500
It's probably - IMHO almost certainly - easier to mod the diff to fit rather than the rig.
An Atlas (or Dana300) setup is gonna put a fair budget hole.
Then the exhaust needs to be re-routed, the starter motor relocated and gawd know what else modified...
There is almost certainly NO cheap way to do a mod like this - but I think modding the diff would be easier ......maybe
An Atlas (or Dana300) setup is gonna put a fair budget hole.
Then the exhaust needs to be re-routed, the starter motor relocated and gawd know what else modified...
There is almost certainly NO cheap way to do a mod like this - but I think modding the diff would be easier ......maybe
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
putting nissan diffs in your jeep is also gonna need custom steering, a fair bit of work in making up link brackets and coil buckets etc to suit, custom tailshafts (nissan use a flange, i believe jeep still use a u-joint with straps), probably a bigger master cylinder (big disks all round), and you'll still have to figure somehting out for a handbrake (the nissan one is on the t/case output)
they are good axles, but that is a lot of money if you can't do the majority of the work yourself.
they are good axles, but that is a lot of money if you can't do the majority of the work yourself.
how often do you brake that d30 anyway ?
have you fitted a locker ?
greg mcclintock (the cj7 owner from anchorage) and his mate eddy with the tj fitted a pair of currie 9in axles for the obc
greg says that when he returned from aus, he dished a bucket of red sand out of the front housing. the rear centre failed also not long after he got home.
eddy also found the currie axles were too weak (dont ask me how)
but they both ended up swapping D60 gear under their rigs
guess its a simple choice when you live in the us
gq stuff is a good alternative i reckon, and if you can get the tubes swapped round for under $1000, if could be worth it. cheeseman makes high steer arms for gq knuckles, but i doubt you would need them, didnt carlton use mq knuckles ? brings the tie rod up front, you could then mount your susp arms up front relatively easily. but if you're going to start making new mounts, why stick with the dicky tj upper front arms ?
rod fergussons got a d60 front and rear 14 bolt complete with 35 spline axles and detroits, could be an alternative ?
have you fitted a locker ?
greg mcclintock (the cj7 owner from anchorage) and his mate eddy with the tj fitted a pair of currie 9in axles for the obc
greg says that when he returned from aus, he dished a bucket of red sand out of the front housing. the rear centre failed also not long after he got home.
eddy also found the currie axles were too weak (dont ask me how)
but they both ended up swapping D60 gear under their rigs
guess its a simple choice when you live in the us
gq stuff is a good alternative i reckon, and if you can get the tubes swapped round for under $1000, if could be worth it. cheeseman makes high steer arms for gq knuckles, but i doubt you would need them, didnt carlton use mq knuckles ? brings the tie rod up front, you could then mount your susp arms up front relatively easily. but if you're going to start making new mounts, why stick with the dicky tj upper front arms ?
rod fergussons got a d60 front and rear 14 bolt complete with 35 spline axles and detroits, could be an alternative ?
Wendle wrote:putting nissan diffs in your jeep is also gonna need custom steering, a fair bit of work in making up link brackets and coil buckets etc to suit, custom tailshafts (nissan use a flange, i believe jeep still use a u-joint with straps), probably a bigger master cylinder (big disks all round), and you'll still have to figure somehting out for a handbrake (the nissan one is on the t/case output)
they are good axles, but that is a lot of money if you can't do the majority of the work yourself.
Heres some of my thought process....
I would try an do most of the work myself - but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable cutting & welding axle housings I guess was my point,
I can easily get brackets to reatin my existing suspension links - just burn 'em on,
I already have custom driveshafts front & rear - and these would need to be replaced with any new diff anyways - or at least od the current shafts. Getting a flange instead of a yoke is minor stuff.
I can get a kit to mount the hand brake onto the T/case rear output shaft - but yeah it and steering would be areas where a little "playing" would be required.
I've got a fair bit of room around the brake master so I don't think that's too much problem....
planb wrote:how often do you brake that d30 anyway ?
have you fitted a locker ?
greg mcclintock (the cj7 owner from anchorage) and his mate eddy with the tj fitted a pair of currie 9in axles for the obc
greg says that when he returned from aus, he dished a bucket of red sand out of the front housing. the rear centre failed also not long after he got home.
eddy also found the currie axles were too weak (dont ask me how)
But they both ended up swapping D60 gear under their rigs
guess its a simple choice when you live in the us
gq stuff is a good alternative i reckon, and if you can get the tubes swapped round for under $1000, if could be worth it. cheeseman makes high steer arms for gq knuckles, but i doubt you would need them, didnt carlton use mq knuckles ? brings the tie rod up front, you could then mount your susp arms up front relatively easily. but if you're going to start making new mounts, why stick with the dicky tj upper front arms ?
rod fergussons got a d60 front and rear 14 bolt complete with 35 spline axles and detroits, could be an alternative ?
Yup have a locker in the front. No I haven't broken the Dana30 yet but I am running 36" TSL's on steel bead locks - it's pushing the upper limit of the D30 and I want to move to 38"ish and you get a lot more reported failures when you get to 37"+ tyres. And rather than spend a heap to get the turd polished, my thoughts are spend the $$ getting it done better to start with....
Personally I'm not a huge fan of the 9"er I'd think by the time it's fitted it would have been a lot of money towards a better axle - sorry just a personal pref against the 9"....
Oh yeah already ditched those puny stock arms - now have Long arms and cut off the stock chassis mounts. The coils are also about to be removed so again seems a good time to thing about this.....
But if time is against me (working towrds the October Jeep Jambo) then I'll probably mod the dana30 as a temp measure....
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
hrm I'd like to have a crack at that... but I don't know how straight I could get it, that's the only thing that worries me. has someone got a pic of a naked (or loaded) GQ front housing so I can try and visualise where I'd cut/weld etc, and if there's ways to guarantee it's straight? Also I'm thinking, while you're going nuts on it, lots of lamination/gusseting could go on at the same time, since the axle obviously has to be out of the vehicle and completely stripped bare.
if it's for a road registered rig you'd want to talk to your RTA engineer FIRST to make sure he's going to certify it and what he expects to see in terms of welds/strengthening etc.
also I don't know how I'd sleep at night having worked on a Jeep
made of Nissan parts... 
if it's for a road registered rig you'd want to talk to your RTA engineer FIRST to make sure he's going to certify it and what he expects to see in terms of welds/strengthening etc.
also I don't know how I'd sleep at night having worked on a Jeep
made of Nissan parts... Free air locker to the first 20 callers!
Wooders, I'm having a Bundy front diff re-tubed to shift the centre over (same side as yours) Cheezy gets this done and they re-use the standard axles to keep everything stock.
Why not just go a D-60 it will run 38"s all day long.
And wouldn't the width of a GQ front diff be way too wide for the Jeep ??
Why not just go a D-60 it will run 38"s all day long.
And wouldn't the width of a GQ front diff be way too wide for the Jeep ??
I just luv my "clacker Jabber"
That's alright bazzle, I usually get my Left & Right confussed anyway 
...heck in this case I'm mixing Right & wrong
Rhys,
I'll be keeping the wb basically stockish but more cutting.....until I get the fuel tank lifted, then over time I'll look to move the rear back similar to Shanes Rig.
Dunce,
Yup getting it all straight etc is a major concern. And yup I still need to get my plans all cleared as it will be a street driven rig - but I'd like to have it reasonably sorted before I talk to the engineer - I don't wanna get laughed at too loudly ....
Bista,
The WMS will be about 1.5" more on either side.......Don't think that's too bad.......But gotta get a few things checked out.....Less offset on the rims etc??
Duncan,
Personally I'm NOT interested in putting a D44 in the front as a built D30 can be nearly as strong (except R&P).....IMHO if I can't get the Patrol diff too work I'll probably start seriously saving for a D60.
...heck in this case I'm mixing Right & wrong
Rhys,
I'll be keeping the wb basically stockish but more cutting.....until I get the fuel tank lifted, then over time I'll look to move the rear back similar to Shanes Rig.
Dunce,
Yup getting it all straight etc is a major concern. And yup I still need to get my plans all cleared as it will be a street driven rig - but I'd like to have it reasonably sorted before I talk to the engineer - I don't wanna get laughed at too loudly
....
Bista,
The WMS will be about 1.5" more on either side.......Don't think that's too bad.......But gotta get a few things checked out.....Less offset on the rims etc??
Duncan,
Personally I'm NOT interested in putting a D44 in the front as a built D30 can be nearly as strong (except R&P).....IMHO if I can't get the Patrol diff too work I'll probably start seriously saving for a D60.
Cheers [url=http://www.wooders.com.au]Wooders[/url]
I've seen two approaches to turning a Toy axle into a left-offset unit:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196490
http://www.nissanoffroad.net/how_to/SAS/sas2.asp
I'm sure either could be applied to a Patrol axle.
However, I've been pondering the same thing and have my own idea that seems to be feasable. Bascially take the right-offset H233B rear housing from an MQ, lop off the flanges at the ends of the tubes, and you've got an H233B housing that, when turned around facing the opposite direction (without being inverted), becomes a left-offset front housing.
Then graft on the ends/knuckles from a front H233B (I prefer the high-pinion GQ as a donor) onto the MQ housing (w/ desired caster and pinion angle set up in the process) and stick in the donor front's third member and shafts (swapped left/right) and you're golden.
The only custom part is the hybrid housing, anything that could break is completely OEM unless in the process of mating the MQ housing and the GQ/GU outers you change the offset or overall width to be different from the GQ/GU which would require new custom inner shafts.
Here's my brainstorming thread from earlier this year:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=13927
Brent
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196490
http://www.nissanoffroad.net/how_to/SAS/sas2.asp
I'm sure either could be applied to a Patrol axle.
However, I've been pondering the same thing and have my own idea that seems to be feasable. Bascially take the right-offset H233B rear housing from an MQ, lop off the flanges at the ends of the tubes, and you've got an H233B housing that, when turned around facing the opposite direction (without being inverted), becomes a left-offset front housing.
Then graft on the ends/knuckles from a front H233B (I prefer the high-pinion GQ as a donor) onto the MQ housing (w/ desired caster and pinion angle set up in the process) and stick in the donor front's third member and shafts (swapped left/right) and you're golden.
The only custom part is the hybrid housing, anything that could break is completely OEM unless in the process of mating the MQ housing and the GQ/GU outers you change the offset or overall width to be different from the GQ/GU which would require new custom inner shafts.
Here's my brainstorming thread from earlier this year:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=13927
Brent
In search of an MQ (offset) H233b rear, housing only preferred, plus a complete GQ or GU front (4.6 ratio ideal) to be shipped to the US. Cheap! Email/PM if you can help.
don't throw all that money and time into a GQ axle, use a GU. you get the bigger CV's thast way. the only real grief is that the MQ knuckles won't fit onto a GU housing, so you'll have to use aftermarket $teering gear. they are good axles. you would have to throw a lot of money at a D44 to make it as strong as either GQ or GU stuff. especially the rear.
duncan wrote:Wooders bight the bullet and put a dana 44 or 60 in the front you will then never have a problem easier swap and GQ CVs arnt that tuff im actualy going to suss out wether i can put a dana 44 in the front of my GQ as i believe the unis would be stronger
*cough* you are pullin yourself, unless you go to really good axles and CTMs
I was looking at a stock Dana 44 axle the other day, and went propped against a toyota/nissan axle it is barely any different. The benefit is toyota and nissan stuff is cheap and available.
If you go Dana, go 60, or forget it. I saw some 35 spline inner/outer axles for a Dana the other day, and I had a fat on
hands and mums dont count!!!
This probly Sounds a bit rough but , when we where going to put a vit centre between a seirra axles , We cut the Tubes with a huge tube cutter , and got a perfect square cut , added a peice of acid pipe that was about 200 mm long and was 3mm bigger in outer diameter
and had a 10mm wall thickness, Machined it in the lathe to a very snug fit inside the tubes ,To keep it all inline.
and had a 10mm wall thickness, Machined it in the lathe to a very snug fit inside the tubes ,To keep it all inline.
Here's a question while I'm at it. If the GU CVs are preferred over GQ, how much of the rest of the GU axle is needed to go w/ them? I'm thinking if there's no change in the splines/diameter of the inner shaft I could stick with a high-pinion GQ third member, but use GU shafts. Question is would I have to also go with the GU knuckles and such, or (other than possibly inner shaft length, which is easily compensated for when constructing the hybrid housing) could the GU inner, CV, stub shafts, and bearings go into a GQ tube-end and knuckle?
If there were to be GU shafts in the picture, it's probably pointless to even consider using anything GQ other than the HP third-member really, go 100% GU other than the MQ housing. Unless of course the GU knuckles have some shortcoming vs. the GQ.
I see that Wendle seems to have pioneered the swapping of MQ knuckles onto a GQ axle to bring the linkage in front of and above the tube: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... php?t=5951 (nice rock rash on your front driveshaft!)
Is the GU linkage set up like a GQ or the MQ? If it's MQ style, heck, it's a no-brainer to go w/ GU bits. If not, would you advise going w/ GU stuff for the stronger CV, or staying GQ and doing the MQ knuckle swap?
Given that my vehicle currently has the steering ahead of and above the axle centerline, it would probably be best to try and stick with that arrangement.
Brent
If there were to be GU shafts in the picture, it's probably pointless to even consider using anything GQ other than the HP third-member really, go 100% GU other than the MQ housing. Unless of course the GU knuckles have some shortcoming vs. the GQ.
I see that Wendle seems to have pioneered the swapping of MQ knuckles onto a GQ axle to bring the linkage in front of and above the tube: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... php?t=5951 (nice rock rash on your front driveshaft!)
Is the GU linkage set up like a GQ or the MQ? If it's MQ style, heck, it's a no-brainer to go w/ GU bits. If not, would you advise going w/ GU stuff for the stronger CV, or staying GQ and doing the MQ knuckle swap?
Given that my vehicle currently has the steering ahead of and above the axle centerline, it would probably be best to try and stick with that arrangement.
Brent
In search of an MQ (offset) H233b rear, housing only preferred, plus a complete GQ or GU front (4.6 ratio ideal) to be shipped to the US. Cheap! Email/PM if you can help.
XterraGuy wrote:Here's a question while I'm at it. If the GU CVs are preferred over GQ, how much of the rest of the GU axle is needed to go w/ them? I'm thinking if there's no change in the splines/diameter of the inner shaft I could stick with a high-pinion GQ third member, but use GU shafts. Question is would I have to also go with the GU knuckles and such, or (other than possibly inner shaft length, which is easily compensated for when constructing the hybrid housing) could the GU inner, CV, stub shafts, and bearings go into a GQ tube-end and knuckle?
the GU is high pinion as well, it is exactly the same unit, other than bigger knuckles, trunions, CV's and a couple of trivial little things. so the GU stuff won't fit into a GQ housing, but there is no need to try anyways..unless you want to change the steering set up of course.
XterraGuy wrote:If there were to be GU shafts in the picture, it's probably pointless to even consider using anything GQ other than the HP third-member really, go 100% GU other than the MQ housing. Unless of course the GU knuckles have some shortcoming vs. the GQ.
I see that Wendle seems to have pioneered the swapping of MQ knuckles onto a GQ axle to bring the linkage in front of and above the tube: http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... php?t=5951 (nice rock rash on your front driveshaft!)
Is the GU linkage set up like a GQ or the MQ? If it's MQ style, heck, it's a no-brainer to go w/ GU bits. If not, would you advise going w/ GU stuff for the stronger CV, or staying GQ and doing the MQ knuckle swap?
Given that my vehicle currently has the steering ahead of and above the axle centerline, it would probably be best to try and stick with that arrangement.
Brent
yeah the GU steering is set up the same as the GQ stuff, the castings are just a bit bigger. that is the only shortfall of using the GU stuff, you are limited to using aftermarket steering if you want to change it. the trunions are too big to mix and match knuckles from other models.
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