Project Nuki - The Afterbirth - pics again

[sierrajim]

Some of you already know of this but here are the plans for my next rig. And yes, i do have the vehicle, its been started already.

1985 Sierra SWB soft top (started life as a 1.0ltr)

Drivetrain
- 1.6ltr Carb Vitara donk
-1.3ltr 5 speed box
-6:1 rock hoppers
-4.6:1 MQ Patrol diffs
-ARB front locker, welded rear
-35x?? tyres not sure what yet but looking at Simex

Suspension/Chassis
-Sierra rears all round
-SPOA (hard, i know but still possible)
-Rancho 9000's all round
-front shock hoops
-raised fuel tank
-chassis extension
-custom shackles
-9500lb winch (already had it of another rig)
-Vitara power steer

Body
-2" body kift
-1.3ltr front clip (thanks big steve)
-6 point cage
-cut guards
-extended wrangler flares
-possibly stinger bar (don't need it but they look good
-Paratus sport seats (have been collecting dust and needed a home)

Lots of work ahead of me. It's already been started, stripped down, chassis extension, winch mount, spring mounts done. Just set up the vitara fuel tank in its new spot (fits perfectly) then will sort out the steering.

Does anyone have any pics of a Vitara box on a Sierra?

Will do some pics and get them up as soon as i can. If anyone wants any detailed ones just PM me your email address and i'll get them to you.

Jim
[/i]

[OVERKILL ENG]

Sounds good looking forward to the pics.
SAM

[redzook]

i dont think u will need the 2 inch body lift to fit 35's if ya cut the guards

sounds good

[moose]

do you already have the diffs ?? (edit.. just read another post !!)

also , instead of rears all round , look into mazda 323 & 808 wagon springs !!!

[Gwagensteve]

I;m going to say this here, and see how much "mexican" flaming I can cop, but you really really really don't need that much lift to run a 35 simex.

RUF with a 2" body lift and "cut guards" will fit them SPUA

SPOA they will fit with (almost) no other work. You certainly won't need the body lift as well. Over a stock sierra, you will have over 6" of lift out of the SPOA alone as you have thicker axle tubes with the MQ's.

I would always advocate going with the minimum lift to fit the tyre, every other aspect of driving and setting up the car is easier with less lift.

Ps regards Mazda 808/323 springs.... I think it might be wiser to go with a new quality spring than a 25 year old leaf designed for a 900kg road car, or get some springs made withthe rate and dimensions you want. how much better are 808/323 springs that OME sierra rears, MQ fronts, Hilux rears etcetcetc?

[moose]

wat ever you think , master !

[sierrajim]

height is not so much of a problem as the wheel track is increased with wider diffs and offset rims. Will keep that in mind with the body lift however.

SPOA makes life easier with the front diff on the 1.0ltr chassis.

[Gwagensteve]

SPOA makes life easier with the front diff on the 1.0ltr chassis.

Is that with the springs under the chassis or set outboard like a WT?

Moose, I just asked a question - I am curious as to the how and why of 808/323 springs.... why they are better than a new sierra rear... do they work SPUA/SPOA? Obviously there is quite a a lot of expertise out there with OME, RUF, hilux, MQ etcetcetc, to recommend someone to go looking for another spring they must be pretty good.

and my point stands...surely a 25 yo spring that was designed for a light car application will struggle to control a car with MQ diffs, SPOA, wih 35's?

[stumped]

Moose, I just asked a question - I am curious as to the how and why of 808/323 springs.... why they are better than a new sierra rear... do they work SPUA/SPOA? Obviously there is quite a a lot of expertise out there with OME, RUF, hilux, MQ etcetcetc, to recommend someone to go looking for another spring they must be pretty good.

and my point stands...surely a 25 yo spring that was designed for a light car application will struggle to control a car with MQ diffs, SPOA, wih 35's?

i think the reason moose likes those springs is cos they're looooooong, good coupla inches on the zook ones. from memory i think the 808's a van, would it necesarily be much lighter than a zook? as for the age, ya might be able to buy em new if u want...

this may be a stupid question, but i'm only a lowly puter nerd : how will MQ diffs, SPOA, and tyre size affect the control the springs have in a vehicle? does weight below the springs affect how they work while driving normally? i can see that it'd pull on the springs more on droop cos of the weight, but other than that...?? am i missing something?

[Gwagensteve]

I assume they are a SPOA application, being fairly flat?? I guess there are only a limited number of springs that are 50mm wide and longer than sierra rear. I asked this stuff, becaue it seemed like a quite and assertion to make without any justification. I;d like to see some photos.

As to the effect of the set up on the springs, Mq diffs, 35's and a SPOA will place a whole lot of load on the springs. there is a whole lot of unspring weight there, I'm guessing at least double the stock sierra stuff. Too soft a spring will really see the tail wagging the dog. They will really be walking all over the place under the car.

Generally, IMHO SPOA cars need stiffer springs than SPUA cars due to the leverage that the SPOA places on them.( or traction bars, but even these do not always fix the problem) Added unspring weight and increased leverage of a taller height due to the bigger axle diameter, and large/heavy tyres will require a fair bit of spring to keep the axles positioned accurately under the car, an not flopping about fore/aft under loads.

With the weight and width of the MQ diffs, it becomes quite reasonable to run a bigger, heavier spring - the leverge that the added weight/width exerts on the spring will mean that there will be no problem atriculating the car.

when we built Critta with MQ diffs, we went to MQ front springs all round, (SPUA) and they appear to be standing up to the punishment better than the OME rears, especially in the front, even with the same number of leaves. The 60mm wide spring, around 5" longer than a sierra rear, doesnt get as hammered by the leverage as the sierra spring.

[grimbo]

the weight has a huge effect on the life and work rate of a spring. If the spring was designed to control 50kg of tyre and wheel and 50kg of diff over a 5 year period (all figures are made up for dramtic effect effect - but you get the idea) and you suddenly changed the equation to 75kg of wheel and 100kg of diff it cannot be expected to behave and last in the same way. i have noticed that when I went from a 31 to the 34s it made a dramtic change in spring life.

As to the 808 spring, good luck finding a new one. Yes they could work and it is not a bad option if you have a ready supply of decent cheap ones because then it is a easy matter to replace them when they are shagged out. But again you are asking a spring designed for comfort and low flex to operate with heavier wheels etc and to flex beyond it's design parameters.

Whilst saying that if they are cheap enough and give a good result why not give them a go, as long as you realise they won't last as long as a quality 4wd spring

edit ps; bugger must learn to type faster

[bigsteve]

James FYI

I have bent/S'd up my springs and had to re-jumble the packs around twice and they are only 6 months old.

If I was to run MQ diffs I'd be running the MQ springs like Critta.

[Gwagensteve]

Yeah, traction is an issue too. The more grip you are generating, the more you will twist up the springs. twin lockers, and especially a welded diff will really screw the packs up.

[stumped]

well, despite proving my lack of knowledge again, i feel much enlightened thanks for the info

from what i've read, i think moose subscribes to the theory of DRIVE IT!!!!! break it!!!!! fix it!!! drive it!!!!! break it!!!! ....
at least he's out there giving stuff a go and he did just say look into it





what is this? save the moose fund? i gotta go roll the zook out the front of the workshop....

[redzook]

James FYI

I have bent/S'd up my springs and had to re-jumble the packs around twice and they are only 6 months old.

If I was to run MQ diffs I'd be running the MQ springs like Critta.

how many leafs do u have in your pack?

and u have s'd your springs? grimbo i didnt think SPUA cars got axel rap to S a spring


vitarajim
just use some longer leafs that are pretty common
i use feroza springs in the rear nice and soft and they have an offset pin so u get a good depature angle (maybe you can have a look at them although they are wider then zuk rears) and i run rears upfront
and am very happy with the rear but not to happy with the front

[grimbo]

and u have s'd your springs? grimbo i didnt think SPUA cars got axel rap to S a spring

if you only have 3 leaves anything is possible

Tim why aren't you running the feroza springs up front as well. Would they be too long? What did you do for the wider spring mounts on the frame?
Also roughly what sort of spring offset do the ferozas have? 60 - 40, 70 - 30?

[redzook]

and u have s'd your springs? grimbo i didnt think SPUA cars got axel rap to S a spring

if you only have 3 leaves anything is possible

Tim why aren't you running the feroza springs up front as well. Would they be too long? What did you do for the wider spring mounts on the frame?
Also roughly what sort of spring offset do the ferozas have? 60 - 40, 70 - 30?

id say the feroza springs will be upfront shortly they shouldnt be to long there 1 inch longer then yj's but with the offset pin one half of the spring is shorter if i rember correct the center pin is 22inches one side and 24 the other. so it should only stick out roughly 2 inches more then what the rears springs upfront do at the moment and ive got very close to 90degree approach with the setup now so i will still have a good approach angle

they bolted right up with the Trail tough yj kit

[grimbo]

and u have s'd your springs? grimbo i didnt think SPUA cars got axel rap to S a spring

if you only have 3 leaves anything is possible

Tim why aren't you running the feroza springs up front as well. Would they be too long? What did you do for the wider spring mounts on the frame?
Also roughly what sort of spring offset do the ferozas have? 60 - 40, 70 - 30?

id say the feroza springs will be upfront shortly they shouldnt be to long there 1 inch longer then yj's but with the offset pin one half of the spring is shorter if i rember correct the center pin is 22inches one side and 24 the other. so it should only stick out roughly 2 inches more then what the rears springs upfront do at the moment and ive got very close to 90degree approach with the setup now so i will still have a good approach angle

they bolted right up with the Trail tough yj kit

cool, did you get the kit in Australia or from Trail Tough?

[redzook]

got it from
Overkill Engineering
ph. 94766137

he brings in all the trail tough stuff

[sierrajim]

how much difference will there be in height if i run sierra rears up front and MQ fronts in the rear? any ideas?

BTW SPOA vs SPUA taken on board, will set up the axles as SPUA this weekend and check clearance etc before i start cutting spring pearches

[Gwagensteve]

Seems like a good idea Jim. Have you got your tyres? It will help a heap if you are setting it up on tyres.

If you go with aftermarket MQ fronts all around, you can tune the height by pulling leaves. Enforcer MQ fronts have 6 leaves, and on critta we are only running three leaves, and it came ap a fair bit (approx 2.5 inches)over the OME rears, and if we left more leaves in it would have been higher.

Also, on the front we tapered the leaves and used the stock chassis end fixed mount. This might give you a bit too much wheelbse for the front headlight bucket to survive, so if the chassis spring mount moves back a bit, you will get even more lift.

all up I don't think you will have too much trouble getting a 35 under it with MQ fronts all round.

Also remember that there is more to stability than just side slope ability, A sierra is pretty short, so if the car gets too high, the front to rear weight transfer gets pretty savage when cimbing steeply, and this is exaggerated by SPOA axle wrap. This tend to leave you with a car that feels like the rear axle is driving under the car and a front end getting very light.

[sierrajim]

Any ideas on running sierra rears in the front and mq fronts in the rear?

Really don't want to cut out the headlight bucket and draw any more unnecessary attention.

Still have not selected the exact tyres yet but an setting the vehicle up on a set of 35x12.5 BFG all terrains (see they are good for something )

Does critta run MQ fronts in the front with the shackle mount in front of or under the chassis extension?

[redzook]

i say spring it over will be alot easier to fit ya 35's (no need for a body lift)

[sierrajim]

already have the body lift blocks, so no great stress either way. Just open to ideas. Hence the build up thread.

SPOA is a lot of work. For those who aren't aware the front right spring perch is cast, therefore difficult to weld.

The main decider with SPOA is if the angles are going to be ok for the drive shafts. If they are too far out to use wedges i may as well go spoa. if they are close enough out comes the grinder

[Gwagensteve]

hehehehehehehehe "i say spring it over will be alot easier to fit ya 35's (no need for a body lift)"

I cant fit a bodylift in 4 hours with no welding and no hoist.... How easy is that SPOA again?

Jim, I really think you need to decide whether you want a SPOA car or a SPUA car. You can build a car with 35's either way.

If you build it either way and don't like the behaviour, it will be a major PITA to change it, as we are talking about 2 completely different builds here- everything - springs steering mounts driveshafts, shocks stc will be different.
SPOA you will have more height and more work to do with steering and driveline angles, not to mention spring perch welding onthe case pumpkin ( I still don't know how you can do that with springs under the chassis and not outboard???)

SPUA will have easy steering and angles, lower overall ride height and way lower COG, and you might loose a little bit of travel to keep they tyres out of the bonnet, but personally In victoria I would rather have a low car with a little bit less travel (it'll still have plenty) than a tall car with more travel.

Critta has the shackle mount on a hanger infront of the extension. the tube for the bushing is just in front if and the centre line is just below the end of teh extension, which is 4" long. mounting it like this helped keep the car lower. Remember that with underslung (nt) springs, the axle will sit 100mm too far to the left as teh pad is inthe wrong spot. If you move the springs outboard of the chassis, (WT styley) it will be sweet, and the increase in roll stiffness will be no bad thing either.

[redzook]

hehehehehehehehe "i say spring it over will be alot easier to fit ya 35's (no need for a body lift)"

I cant fit a bodylift in 4 hours with no welding and no hoist.... How easy is that SPOA again?

i meant a SOA zuk will be alot easier to fit 35's then a SUA zuk

i didnt mean it was easier to do a spring over then a bodylift

[christover1]

I bent a standard ome right rear spring, with only 31's and a 1.3 donk, and only one litre gearing...I put the extra spring back in, all is fine.

[Gwagensteve]

Iwas only having a bit of a stir, but that said, the messing around associated with getting a SPOA right, especially with MQ's, vs a bit more cutting, bumpstops and a 2" body lift (that Jim already owns) andI reckon the answer is easy.

We both agree though that you don't need a SPOA and a bodylift to run a 35.

[sierrajim]

chassis width extension also already done. It has been done in such a way that i can mount for either sierra rears or MQ fronts.

Would it be possible to run a combination of both?

[sierrajim]

some pics.

The chassis extensions, both width and length have been done.

The fuel tank is just sitting there at the moment but will be mounted tonight.