Santana "Land Rover"

[ISUZUROVER]

Some of you may know that many years ago the Santana company in spain began assembling CKD Land Rovers for the spanish market, and eventually manufactured components themselves until they had 100% local manufacture.

We can thank them for designing the LT85 (The strongest Land Rover 5 speed ever), designing the first parabolic leaf springs for Land Rovers, The strongest series overdrive (which never made it here) and 3.4L 6 cylinder versions of the rugged 2.25 Petrol and 2.25 Diesel (which also unfortunately never made it here).

Well I have come across a site of the Austrian Santana dealer, which contains some history info and detailed pictures and specs of the current Santana - the PS-10 - it is basically a Defender with leaf springs (Santana never switched to coils).

History
http://www.allrad-christ.com/santana_firma.htm

Pictures of the PS-10
http://www.allrad-christ.com/santana_ps10_5sitzig.htm

Detailed specs
http://www.allrad-christ.com/santana_daten.htm

[daddylonglegs]

Yes Ben there was a lot more engineering talent at Santana than Rover ever had.Years ago I would have killed to get one of those Santana 6 cylinder engines, petrol or deisel.
Ben, do you know if their outer swivel housings have the disc brake caliper mountings cast on to them? and will they fit onto series swivel balls? I wouldn't mind betting that they used the Salisbury diff before Rover too.
Bill.

[Bush65]

My understanding is that the LT85 was designed by leyland for santana, hence the LT (for leyland transmission) in the designation.

[ISUZUROVER]

I found a site for the UK Santana dealer - so all the specs are in English.

http://www.brucehopkins.co.uk/santana_4x4.htm

John - you may be right, but whatever the design origins, AFAIK all the LT85's were manufactured in Spain and imported by Land Rover for the V8 110's. It was a much better and stronger box than the LT77, and IMHO better than the R380. And Santana are still using it today.

Bill - yes I really wanted a Santana 6 as well, but unfortunately from what I have found out, they weren't used in many vehicles. I don't know about the Salisbury, Santana may have used a locally sourced diff instead. I have a German 4x4 mag with a review on the Santana (how I came across the website) and it has a banjo-type rear diff, not a Dana type. Looks a little bit larger than a rover diff.

[ISUZUROVER]

Ben, do you know if their outer swivel housings have the disc brake caliper mountings cast on to them? and will they fit onto series swivel balls?

I don't know Bill but I will find out, I am interested too.

[Bush65]

Ben, my comment was only in respect of where it was designed, not built, and was in response to Bill's comment (which I don't dissagree with).

I also understand Mal S was modifying LT85's (bearings) to improve life behind the 4BD1.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

...Some where, I have a set of MSA brochures for the Santana L/Rs; a quick search just now tells me I need to root deeper...

MSA I'm sure do use a salisbury in the LWBs & definetely do in the 2000
(which is their civvy version of the 101" ..& uses virtually same chassis as the Solihull one).

I had the opportunity of getting a brand new diesel '6 from the factory back around 1989....it was going to cost around £2700....which was a hell of a lot in those days (& feels like even more today... )...I wanted it for my freshly restored IIB. One of the off-putting things about it was it had a timing belt instead of a chain or cogs....

Bill, I think the santana swivels outer castings are different....but the balls etc are same or something like that....theres a UK firm importing them for Series owners to upgrade with too.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

.....Apologies; Correction to last post..!

I found the brochures (will have to see if someone can scan them up for me) but the 109" appears to have a non-Salisbury silhouette axle under the back..you can see a drainbung bulge under the diff....

And the 2000....well the artist-pic in the centre fold definitely depicts a Salisbury....& it has the 6-stud hubs & 101" rims...

But the body option (thumbnail-size) pics show a small-profile silhouette,
to the 2 axles.....definetely not in my veiw, what you would expect if it were a salisbury....BUT they do still have the 6 stud hubs.

There's a nice RHS veiw of the diesel '6 engine in one pic.

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Nick,A few years ago I worked on an unusual 2B forward control that a bloke brought over with him from South Africa.
This vehicle had the series 3 LandRover chassis design, ie 2 pressed channel sections welded together to form a box section, rather than the 4 plate constuction of other 2B's. It alo had Salisbury front and Rear diff assemblies, unfortunately the front axle only had universal joints, not CV's
The gearbox was all synchro series 3 but with the longer mainshaft to suit the all helical transfercase. The cab and firewall (bulkhead} was 2B, the rear body was Sth African police prisoner box.
In all the articles on LandRover Variants and the history of forward Controls I have read over the decades this model has never been mentioned. The last I heard from that particular vehicle, it was bought,minus the front Salisbury, by somebody in Tasmania.
Do you know anything about these? Bill

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Bill...!

There were a few proprietary F/C conversions done on Series 3's by firms in UK during their production years, as fire engines & by a Bristol-based company called SMC too.

If the truck you saw had Salisbury axles with u/j's in the front, then that would be (possibly?) a 1-Ton 109" axle under the front..?

(I have two of these axles...with the 5-stud hubs.One was brand new from Blanchards in Yorkshire & the other came from a vehicle broken in Wales)

It sounds like some enterprising engineering may have gone on in S.Africa to me......do you remember what engine was in it...??

It certainly does'nt sound like a UK-built one....all the IIB's ran out on long('er than 109") length ENV's.....

[daddylonglegs]

Hi Nick, This vehicle was definately factory built. The Salisburies were the same width as the Env's on the 2B's and clearly unaltered. The Chassis too was as integrated a construction as any of the standard models, and not modified outside. The engine was the standard Rover 2.6 litre 6 cylinder. I vaguely recall that the build date was much later than when the history books tell us that FC's were discontinued. about 1975 ?
The fact that it was ex S A police suggest that it may have been part of a fleet of special build models. Maybe the Forward Control Register in UK can unearth some details. Bill.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

.....Well, that is most interesting indeed..!

The F/C Register may be able to help.....also, one of the clubs' members, Angelo Avelonitis who is a wildlife photographer comes from S.Africa &
now lives near London, runs a F/C, (ex S.A. military) all done-up as a camper, & he may know of someone running such a vehicle...??

Good one for James Taylor of 'Land-Rover Enthusiast' mag....he seems to be tapped into all the guys who worked at the factory & in 'Special Projects' Dept.

It would not be hard to 'create' salisburys as you describe....as I'm sure you noticed too..

Maybe thats why all the 101" frontends have a second set of spring pads under the axle as well as on top...?
They would just 'bolt-on' to a IIB (with different props) as the rear springs are extra-wide apart too......In fact, I'd always intended to gear my IIB down further with a set of 101" axles, but it was going to be time cconsuming & expensive to re-do the special 17.5" front wheels & the rear duals to suit the bigger hubs...so it never got done....!

[daddylonglegs]

Nick, do you have any clues as to the reasons for going to 6 stud wheels on the 101's? The old 5 stud pattern is very substantial anyway, more than enough for the 101's intended uses. There is no interchangeability of wheels with other trucks in British army service. Even the much larger wheel bearings and spindles could have been accomodated by a hub with the 5 stud pattern.
Bill.

[landy_man]

i am also an ex south african as some of you know... but alas I have no tech to add BUT... check here http://www.landyonline.co.za/forum.htm
One of the guys there may be able to help...

and yes... there were many military and police IIB's and 101's in S.A.....
I would think that it would have been special order as Land Rover still do a roaring trade in South Africa...as well as most other African countries.

[daddylonglegs]

Thanks Landyman. If LandRover still had a strong market share in Sth Africa in the 1970's they might have decided it was worthwhile to do a limited production run of 2B's with contempory components.
I wonder if any readers of this forum from Tasmania know of the vehicle I mentioned? I remember now that it was painted a shade or two darker than Fire engine red.
Bill.

[Nick (in the Falklands!)]

Hi Bill...

I have no absolute idea as to why the six-stud pcd was chosen finally; the 6 prototypes (which I've now seen 3 of) all had 3-litre '6's, GKN gearboxes, series T-box & ENV 5-stud IIB axles....

BUT, the 129"s & 120"s had already used spring-over-axle Salisburys (with this same 6-stud pattern..) back some years before the 101" concept was conceived & perhaps with the need to be able to throw 101"s out of aircraft & the powered trailer idea, a greater need was seen for 'tougher' bits....??

(I will check back through some relevant magazines tho' in case I missed something..)
I'm not so sure that there were'nt other trucks in the British Army with that stud pattern round then tho'......its the same as J1 Bedford & some
Austin & Commer light trucks, & according to this Observers book, they
used various body types at odd stages...
Of course the 105mm gun & Rapier launcher that the 101" was designed to tow also had this stud pattern....indeed the guns continue to be used today with 101" wheels & hubs even tho' they wrote off the idea of having the gun axle driven years ago.
We just aquired a 2-ton Sankey trailer (to use with the Dodge)..this is intended for the MK Bedford type by rights, but it has the same GKN split
rims as the Commers, (16" centrelines with 8.25 rubber ), again: same pcd........& of course now, the R-B44 (& Stonefield..?) have the same; we could fit the 101"s big 'shit-grips' to our R-B Dodge...(if I took the angle-grinder to the front wheelarches first, ...& it may happen yet..!!)

The centre-hole is same as a Ford Transit, but the studs are closer in on a Transit (like an old big J20 Jeep..) & to use 14" Transit wheels on a tandem trailer with 101" hubs fitted , we are going to have to re-drill them.
Curiously, the 101" pattern is same as the Unimog too (I beleive we may
have touched on this elsewhere..) & these days it can be found on many agricultural applications in UK, & various dumpers & self-loading concrete mixers....

Landy-man,
Thanks for that note about the F/C's in S.Africa..will check out the link!