Frank and Ranchos

[redrocket]

Tell me more about these new springs and ranchos frank? how longer are they over the konis we've got?

[Bitsamissin]

Well Mike the Koni's we have are not long travel they are the same as a standard Mitsi shock. Koni do not make a long travel shock for the Paj.
I'll focus on the rear as the fronts are irrelevant.
Koni 30-1457 rears, 11.93" compressed / 17.99" extended = 6.06" of travel.
Mine are reaching their maximum stroke stopping any further wheel droop and the compressed side is just kissing the chassis bumpstop.
Rancho RS99247 rears, 14.625" compressed / 23.875" extended = 9.25" of travel. This will probly need the chassis bumpstops lowered a bit to stop the compressed shock bottoming out and destroying itself. But will allow the axle to pivot off the lowered bumpstop allowing maximum wheel droop on the opposite side. This is with the swaybar removed obviously.
The Rancho's are also 9 stage externally adjustable.
I've been told in the lwb this will be fine (t/case slip yoke) but may need coil spring retainers (on the bottom seat). This will fix the spring at the base and at full droop (being a stiff linear coil) it may pop out of it's top mount but will automatically seat back in position when the wheel rises back up. I'm not sure if this will actually happen until I test the new set up. The new coil springs will be a 3" lift coil (instead of 2.5") mainly coz the rear has dropped a bit from the drawers, fridge etc.
It'll be a few months until I perfect this but no one I know of has really researched this. I know Ironman Suspensions sell a 20" extended shock for the Paj with a 2" lift.

[redrocket]

You know i always thought that there wasn't much differance with the koni's and when i looked them up on the net it said that they were standard length. I guess i kept telling myself they were longer cause of the $310 i paid for "long travel" shocks On my car i can't go for any more lift unless i get a double cardan joint cause it is just on the limit of the drivshaft vibration i talked about when i first put the springs in. If the springs is not touching the upper mount at full droop then is it only relying on the weight of the diff to push the tyre onto the ground? if this is the case then is this an advantage at all due to the posiible loss of traction due to the lw downforce on that wheel? Also have you thought about doing away with the panhard rod and putting an a-frame in like your friend in japan? What about the "flexibility" of the standard trailng arms, is there a possible upgrade option there as well?

[Bitsamissin]

I've thought about the rear quite a bit. I really believe there is more there than has been exploited. I know Swartzy has 3" longer shocks in his swb and at times at full droop the coil would pop out.
The new Challenger has a 3 link rear end identical to the Paj but has pivoting trailing arms off the chassis. I haven't measured them to see if they are identical but they sure do look close, this could be an option.
I'm not looking for mega flex just a noticeable improvement. You still have the weight of the axle on the deck and thats better than nothing even if the spring has dropped off it's top mount.
I aint got a body lift so if I can get the drooped wheel 33" (top of the tyre) level or just past the sill I'll be happy. It is possible and has been done :-
This dude is running 34" swampers (no body lift).........

[PHIL]

Just as an FYI, the Rancho 9000s for the front are, if anything, shorter than stock. I want to crank the t-bars more, and am toying with the idea of using a coupling nut to lengthe the upper mount... THey ride good, and the adjustablility is great, but too damn short!

PHIL

[redrocket]

How much are the rancho's frank? I might give my friend at pedders a call tommorow and see if they have a spring which its same diameter but longer which still gives the same ride height be it a softer spring. On another suspension question, do you suffer alot from the pajero salute? I was at ormeau on the weekend(which is awesome) and i was continuously lifting a front wheel 1-1.5m in the air. It was very daunting at times and it seems as though the car is unbalanced to the rear more?? could be me picking bad lines which i do often(inexperience ) i don't know. I had the front swaybar unbolted and wowee you should see the travel with the balljoint spacers. Its flexing so much now it looks like a solid axle
I got some photos so i will post some up later this week. Thats the first time i have actually taken it out to do some work harder than the beach with the bj spacers. i really should do a measurement with the fork lift but i soo slack. I need a swaybar disconnect system up front cause unbolting on a day trip is just painful but i gotta keep it all legal. Will have to look into custom swaybar again as well. Did a 4" suspension lift on my mountain bike last night as well - . I gonna drive the obstacles then ride it as well now. Anything offroad and i luv it.

[Bitsamissin]

Rancho RS9000X's run around the $180 Ea.
Yes the torsion bar front end does kick up wickedly on mine to, it's just the mechanics of the bars, the spring steel unwinding quickly flicking the front end up.
I was talking to a guy tonite who had a front Detroit put in his Gen 1 Paj last year and he says the front locker stops most of this (Shane also said this). He said it is by far the best mod he has done to it.
4x4 Monthly did a photo shoot of his Paj (2 months ago) so we should see it soon.

[redrocket]

Did u see in the 4wd monthly issue the shock mount converters from some place. Converts our top bolt style to nomal eye style.

[Montypower]

That is some nice wheel travel!!!!

I'm looking to get 3.5" lift coils for the back of my Montero. I have a company www.coilsprings.com that will make them. They say that the springs will have the same stock characteristics (same firmness). I'm thinking about ordering soon. They are about $200 (us) for a pair.

Any reason not to?? They will warrant the springs for 1 yr. Something I'm missing?? or need to check into?

I figure go with a 3.5" lift spring... so in a year it will still be around 3" lift. Any/all comments welcome!!!

Pete

[redrocket]

Monty power,
just keep in mind that lifting 3.5" in the rear is fine but you won't get the front high enough to match and you will be driving around downhill all the time.

Frank i sent you email to the eisa address.

[Pharb]

Frank,
Have you thought about lifting the top shocker mounts up and forward (to maintain the standard shock angle) further into the space under the back
(center) seat instead of lowering the bump stops. Nearly enough room there for another crossmember to hang a pair of upper links or an A-frame.
Peter

[Bitsamissin]

Yeah I have looked at that, I'm trying to work out an off the shelf kit that will give a lot more rear wheel travel rather than cutting and welding stuff.
Mike those shock mounts you spoke of are sold by Big Balls Offroad, I also looked at them (I haven't priced them though or got measurements to see if they would fit ok). It is certainly an option compared to lowering the chassis bumpstops.

[Montypower]

Monty power,
just keep in mind that lifting 3.5" in the rear is fine but you won't get the front high enough to match and you will be driving around downhill all the time.

Frank i sent you email to the eisa address.

I understand about the ride ange. Although, currently I'm driving uphill!!! I front was cranked up 3" and now is approx. 1" higher than the back. I was thinking to get a matching amount of lift for the back. And then I added an extra 1/2" to account for spring sag. Does this sound right?? I appreciate your comments!!! And I will probably be driving downhill after it is done... but then when it is loaded with gear, it will be level. Any other thoughts??

[DougH]

Pete,

Do you know if these will be progressive or linear coils. Can you get me the email of the company who is making them. I would love to ask them a few questions... but I would definetly buy a set for 200.

[Montypower]

The web address: www.coilsprings.com
And they have an online quote request form.... and you can ask questions. It took about 3-4 days for me to get a quote. But after that they have had quick responses. Seem like they know the stuff... and for the price... I thought I'd be spending around $400.

And I don't know if they are linear or progressive... I'll ask them about it. I will probably order a set tomorrow. And I heard that the progressive can sag... I figure any spring will sag.. So I added an extra 1/2" to the spring height.

[redrocket]

This is those adapters frank to go from stud to eye. http://www.bigballsoffroad.com/prod99.htm They are $45 each which is a fair old rip off since i could make the same for nuttin so i probably will but i tihnk i am gonna go for the eye eye shock method i talked about. Gonna drill hole thru pipe crossmember bothe sides and weld in pin shock mount facing forwards. Then put an adapter down the bottom like your mate from japan did which would then let it pivot both ways which would be filth. Gonna jack car up tonight and drop springs out and get some measurements so i will let you know them when i get them. You have the same pedders springs as me don't ya. I will take some happy snaps if there is anything worth having a look at. Till then. Oh and i downloaded the rancho sohck specs list so i will pull a part number of it as well. Are all the rancho 9000x valved the same?? Just made in differant lengths?

mike.

[redrocket]

Well at present car in a few bits but got the measurements for full droop. With everything connect as per stock max droop is 19.25" shock length. There are a few limiting things at this point and they are 1. Park brake cables 2. brake line length 3. Swaybar mounts. With these items modified you can then drop another 1.25" to 20.5" shock length. The limiting factor now is the flexibility of the factory trailing arm mount to the chassis. On my car which may differ to the lwb the bushes actually are compressed enough to support the weight of the diff minus the tyres. More flex would have to be acheived by converting these stud type mounts to bush and pin type. At this full 20.5" droop position the springs(pedders) are still on there seats just. There is enough tension to hold them there with bottoms only sitting on one edge of coil. Full compression i got a meausurement of 340mm(13.4") shock length with standar bump stops. So the shock that fits the bill is the RS99186. This shock is 13.125" compressed and 20.375" extended. It has the same stud mount as standard but has a bush mount base compared to a bush and sleeve but i dun think that is a problem. So with 9 way adjustable, longer brake line and no swaybar on the back we should see a good 4" more drop and very respectable on road handling.

mike.

[Montypower]

Hey Mike,

I just ordered my 3.5" lift springs for the back and they are progressive. I really appreciate the numbers and research that you did. And it sounds like the Rancho is a good shock as well... But here is something to consider: How if possible can I get the wheel to drop 25" on my LWB???

The only limitation that will NOT be changed is the springs!!! I'd be interested in your comments and suggestions. It sounds like you are very familiar with this vehicle. Any others with ideas please chime in as well!!! :wink:


Well at present car in a few bits but got the measurements for full droop. With everything connect as per stock max droop is 19.25" shock length. There are a few limiting things at this point and they are 1. Park brake cables 2. brake line length 3. Swaybar mounts. With these items modified you can then drop another 1.25" to 20.5" shock length. The limiting factor now is the flexibility of the factory trailing arm mount to the chassis. On my car which may differ to the lwb the bushes actually are compressed enough to support the weight of the diff minus the tyres. More flex would have to be acheived by converting these stud type mounts to bush and pin type. At this full 20.5" droop position the springs(pedders) are still on there seats just. There is enough tension to hold them there with bottoms only sitting on one edge of coil. Full compression i got a meausurement of 340mm(13.4") shock length with standar bump stops. So the shock that fits the bill is the RS99186. This shock is 13.125" compressed and 20.375" extended. It has the same stud mount as standard but has a bush mount base compared to a bush and sleeve but i dun think that is a problem. So with 9 way adjustable, longer brake line and no swaybar on the back we should see a good 4" more drop and very respectable on road handling.

mike.

[Bitsamissin]

Good work Mike.
The other shock suitable is RS99138 (13.25" compressed, 20.625" extended) it has S42 top mount and LS26 bottom mount but can be bushed out to the Paj's LS82. I had this one marked as well.
The brake line is no problem getting that extended, so the trailing arms bind at that point ?
One option is the new coil sprung Challenger the trailing arms look identical and have pivoting mounts off the chassis instead of the Paj bushing type.
But still the RS99138 is 2.5" longer than our Koni's which is a good upgrade.
My coil springs are not Pedders, they are from Guest 4wd here in Melb, 2.5" lift linear rate and reasonably stiff.

[DougH]

Frank,

Have u looked at those arms yet. Matt who used to wheel with me had them, they took alot of ground clearance away.

Dont forget breathers and parking brake cables. But I think you mentioned this on the other post.

Instead of pivoting ends, which I was looking at aswell, I want to wrist the trailing arm to get rid of the bind. I like the bushing type for one the road... I think they controll the axle a little better.

[redrocket]

You wouldn't expect it but yeah the arms are binding at that lowest point. You can put wieght on it to make it drop lower but it just springs back to the same point. Was thinking and i reckon it would be better to go to a loop/loop shock cause if you have ever seen the angle of the shock at full compression it is quite extreme. The stud bushes are really cranked around to let the shock move to that point. A nex longer brake line is easy and changing around the park brake cable mounts would fix them from getting tight as well. Another question for yas if you have done it before, but how do you get the rear swaybar off once it is unbolted??? I tried twisting every way i could but couldn't get it out of there. Do you have to unbolt the driveshaft or sumfin?

[Montypower]

So, the trailing arms bind up to prevent more wheel travel?? Has anyone discovered a solution to replace the trailing arms with?? I know there is a way to get more flex... and it might take some custom work...

Check out this... This is the flex I'm looking for:


Just for a reference... What is the maximum wheel drop before the arms bind up??? 25"?
And how can I get that flex???

[DougH]

So, the trailing arms bind up to prevent more wheel travel?? Has anyone discovered a solution to replace the trailing arms with?? I know there is a way to get more flex... and it might take some custom work...

Yeah wrist them. Do a search on the 4x4wire... on the main board and in the archives. And then go to pirate4x4.com and check out their forum. Do a search on the whole site for wristed arms... and look specifically in the for sale forum.

[Montypower]

Here is the deal:

I'm interested in the possiblity of wristing the trailing arms in the future. The current setup will be: 3.5" lift springs, no sway bar, trimed bump stops (if needed), spring retainers (if needed), and new shocks?

Since I will have longer springs than stock... I can probably go with a much longer shock. So, my question would be which shock?? Keep in mind I do not want to have my stock trailing arms bind up, but I don't want to replace the shocks (if possible) if I wrist the trailing arms. So, what fits the bill best?????

Here are a couple solutions offered:

Rancho RS99247 rears, 14.625" compressed / 23.875" extended = 9.25" of travel

So the shock that fits the bill is the RS99186. This shock is 13.125" compressed and 20.375" extended. It has the same stud mount as standard but has a bush mount base compared to a bush and sleeve but i dun think that is a problem.

(This is those adapters frank to go from stud to eye. http://www.bigballsoffroad.com/prod99.htm They are $45 each NEEDED??)

Please post what shock setup would be best and any research that led you to the conculusion.

[redrocket]

Monty, i hate too say it but it seems you have no idea what we are talking about here. The stock arms will go to 20.5" and no further without "wristing" or pivoting arms. You will only ever have to shorten the bumpstops if you change the shock mounts. You seem to be after alot of travel in the back but what do you intend to do at the front? There is a certain point of customization that you should go to when running an ifs front end and i think you are trying to go way past it. To do these mods you would be better off taking it to a custom shop and getting a full 5 link rear end put in or sumfin like it but remeber that you will still be poping wheelies up the hills.

Frank,
Did you get the email of the video??

[Bitsamissin]

Yeah I did Mike but for some reason it would not play. Said Real Player needed a software upgrade to play it but then said there's no software available ??????
I agree with you, I alaways thought there was a few more inches to be had so 20.5" seems to be the limit without some serious work. Sure you can wrist the trailing arms or substitute for a pivoting mount but then you may as well go a 5 link like you said. Good on you for doing all the research in getting this result at least we know where we stand. So a 20.5" Rancho, extend the brakeline and relocate the handbrake cable and that's about it. No wonder no one does an off the shelf kit and the Japs just gut everything and go 4 link.

[redrocket]

Thats about how you do it. Not a bad upgrade really considering the only real outlay is the shocks You forgot to add in there the removal of the swaybar, oh and how to get the damn thing off. And extend any breathers or airlocker lines as well. Mine are all upgraded so i didn't really notice them.
You should try playing that video in windows media player. Thats what i had it going in here. You might have to open media player and then open the file thru media player. When i put my koni's back in i adjusted them to the next setting which is 20% more than the lowest setting. Goes around corners heaps better now and seems to handle frequent rough bumps alot better as well. I wacked a pile of washers on each shock to space them down a bit cause the seal marks showed them being about 25mm short of full compression. Didn't make any noticeable differance but thats just me stuffin around amusing my boredom. Will take em out before friday so the pedders boys don't see them. Have to take my car there cause after yesterday my steering wheel ain't facing straight no more. Probably bent somthing and thrown the wheel alignment out - meh who knows. On another topic, how much does your suspension creak and bang and make other "interesting" noises?? I am used to mine doing it now but can be sorta embarrising when your wheeling in front of other ppl ya know.

mike.

[Montypower]

"Monty, i hate too say it but it seems you have no idea what we are talking about here. " Actually, you are probably right. That is why I ask questions so directly. I needed to find out which shock will work best and give the most travel. Since, 20.5" is the max w/o doing extreme mods.... I think the shock listed below is the one for the job:

"So the shock that fits the bill is the RS99186. This shock is 13.125" compressed and 20.375" extended. It has the same stud mount as standard but has a bush mount base compared to a bush and sleeve but i dun think that is a problem."

I really appreciate the advice of experts!!! I'm new to suspension stuff!!! And know what I want, but don't know if it is practical. Another questions for the experts: Any cheap vender online for the Rancho shock??

[Montypower]

Another Note:

"So the shock that fits the bill is the RS99186. This shock is 13.125" compressed and 20.375" extended. It has the same stud mount as standard but has a bush mount base compared to a bush and sleeve but i dun think that is a problem."

The Rancho RS99186 shock is an eye to eye shock... so that would mean that the stock setup would have to be changed. I'm not interested in spending another $50-100 for that converter... Any other solutions for converting the stud mount to eye mount? Anyone made the converters??

Does $86 per shock sound like a good price for these shocks???
Please let me know soon... as I want to get the parts ordered.

[95Montero]

Ok, I'm not the brightest on this subject but here it goes...

the RS99263 may possibly work on Gen 2's gives a 4.250 Travel
Same top mounting as the factory but uses a cross pin on the lower. Two optios here: the lower mount can be un bolted from the A-Arm and it may just bolt in...second option can the cross pin be cut off or pushed out?

Was Just looking at the Rancho Specs. the 99223 = 9.375 / 13.00
the one I mentioned Above 99263 = 10.125 / 14.375 Compressed and Extended lenghts. at worst make a lower bump stop extension of .750 for those of us who really Stuff the wheel to keep from bottoming the shock.