Got more Power need stronger Gear.

[rangemann]

sorry but this won't be short and sweet.

i've read all the posts but i still don't know what I need.

Here's my situation:

1984 RR
5.0L holden engine
ZF4speed gear box

(just about ready to crankover after a YEAR of pissing around-i have to travel 200k's to get to where my rangie is garaged and then i can only get there every 2nd weekend or so)

I don't know jack about R&P's 4.7's drilling axle housings or anything like that. but i do know that i want to upgrade my poor rangie or it's gonna get hurt. i'm on a budget of $4000 for the moment.

ultimately i want lockers front and rear and running 33's.
does anybody have any recomendations as to what i can get now that will leave me in a good position for when more money and upgrades are available. I dont need a definate answer just my options.

As jacmac enhanced diffs are about as strong as you'll get i'm angling in that direction.

Any thoughts or observations or links to posts that i've missed would be a great help.

cheers

[BASSYK]

for $4k id recommed maxi drive rear and the 33's then when you get more cash get the front maxi

im running the same motor ant the previous owner went through 2 rear diffs , and i went through one.

now ive got the 35" pedes on and havent broken anything yet (knock on wood)

[GURU]

maxi drives are great but still got weak R&P.

the toyota centres and jacmca's are quite strong.

Would you consider fitting complele diffs from another vehicle? if so are you able to do this yourself?

fitting Nissan GQ patrol Diffs is my prefered option, currently fitting some to my car as we speak, strong as and won't break. you could have diffs and twin lockers and still be under budget if you can fit yourself, If not and you had to get them fitted then you would be just on budget with still needing to buy tyres.

[-Mick-]

Mate does it run yet

I'd consider patrol diffs as well dude

Would be pretty bulletproof if ya just want 33's

[Bush65]

With 33" tyres, you should be right with stock 3.54:1 ring and pinion, with Jack Mac or Maxidrive lockers and axles.

84 rangie has 10 spline axles, so you want to change to 24 spline axles and 110 or toyota cv's when you fit lockers.

Rover 4.7:1 ring and pinion is weak.

[GURU]

you should be right

I think thats says alot. Yes the stock R&P will handle 33's with maxi drive or jac mac axles and lockers, BUT it will depend how you drive, remember nothing in this world is "unbreakable"

I run a 3.5 carby V8 with 33.5" tyres and snapped 2 diff centres, then put a rear locker in and snaped a 24 spline disco axle (locker not enguaged) all doing relatively tame off road duties. I run the maxi drive 4.11 ratio's and they are strong enough.

If you fitted 4.11's from maxi and fitted maxi diff locks front and rear it would be a pretty strong setup and would probably cope. But it would be expensive as. where nissans you by the diffs disc to disc complete and all the after market stuff you need to buy is lockers (ARB)

[Bush65]

you should be right

I think thats says alot. Yes the stock R&P will handle 33's with maxi drive or jac mac axles and lockers, BUT it will depend how you drive, remember nothing in this world is "unbreakable"

I run a 3.5 carby V8 with 33.5" tyres and snapped 2 diff centres, then put a rear locker in and snaped a 24 spline disco axle (locker not enguaged) all doing relatively tame off road duties. I run the maxi drive 4.11 ratio's and they are strong enough.

If you fitted 4.11's from maxi and fitted maxi diff locks front and rear it would be a pretty strong setup and would probably cope. But it would be expensive as. where nissans you by the diffs disc to disc complete and all the after market stuff you need to buy is lockers (ARB)

I'm not against the Nissan conversion or other views in this thread.

When you said you snapped 2 diff centres running 33.5" tyres, was it the stock 2-pin carrier that failed?

The 2-pin carrier is weak, but ARB, Jack Mac or Maxi lockers have 4-pin carriers, which is not a problem.

[rangemann]

Mick - get stuffed . i'll worry about the rangie, you worry about my light gun.

Das - with the nissan gear, fitting them yourself, does everything go inside the current housing or do you fab up mounts and connect everything to the nissan housing. who would fit them for you? that 'drive in drive out' mob someone mentioned a while back? then you'd have to get nissan rim and rubber on top of that?

for non nissan stuff.
New rubber isn't a prob at the moment. 4k on just the axle/diff/cv upgrade. if it's suitable when i do get new rubber i might just go straight to 35's......

if i went jacmac, cause of the stronger R&P.
for the back diff, i'd need the locker kit, i guess all the strong stuff you need is in that. do you have to buy axles seperate as i'm going from 10 to 24spline? i imaging they would fit at the diff end but what about the other end? or is the wheel end on all axles the same?
do i have to specify to jacmac the ratio i want? can i easily change later on?

For the front, toymota or 110 cv's, what axles do these need and consequently which lockers can they go into?

i've had a look at the jacmac website but i can't figure out what i need from that.

do you stick all this in yourself. does everything slot together or do you need a bit of eyeball engineering?

all my books are with the rangie so if you think i'm asking something obvious, it's because i haven't had a chance to look it up.

what if i just upgraded the axles and cv's now. that would involve new diff stuff?

finally what out all that above can i get for my budget.

i know that's a lot of questions........
cheers

[Loanrangie]

Toyo centres and jac mac axles is a far easier solution than fitting nissan diffs, parts are off the shelf and there is no major mods required bar some drilling of the housings and a bit of boring out the stubs to fit the larger diameter axles. With 4k you can do the conversion with front and rear arb lockers as well. Plenty of ratio's around and once you have the parts can be done in a weekend- also the nissan rear diff is centered so this is not a bolt in job. There will be pro's and cons with both but in my opinion the toyo centre conversion is easier and better value.

[rangemann]

yep, i reckon i'd go that way before nissan. i forgot that they were centred diffs. cheers.
anyway, my brother's a nissan man and i wouldn't want him to get the one up by me using nissan stuff

if this setup uses jacmac axles and you need to bore the stubs, does that mean i have to do that regardless of any jacmac setup i may choose that uses their axles. or are these jacmac axles bigger in dia because of the toy centre that's involved?

sorry if i'm testing anyones patience

[Loanrangie]

As far as i know, its only when using the toy centers that the boring/ reaming needs to be done. I think when the original centers are used the axles are stepped to fit the standard housing.
Myself and mickrangie helpd Landyman drill the housings and that was easy, 1 thing to look out for is to get a high pinion diff for the front out of a bundera or an 80 series landlooser or your trackrod wont clear the center.

[HSV Rangie]

Yep,
go with the toy diff centres.
Jacmac axles.

and al will be fine.

Michael

[-Mick-]

Mick - get stuffed . i'll worry about the rangie, you worry about my light gun.

[GURU]

also the nissan rear diff is centered so this is not a bolt in job.

how does it been centred make it not bolt in, its not a bolt in anyway

front is more or less plug and play. just upper shock mounts pan panhard rod.

As for fitting, Overkill Engineering will be supplying a fitting kit (with all brackets to weld on and any arms required) once my Rangie is done.

The toyota setup is okay and pretty strong, but hi-lux rear diffs are known to fail.

Just out of intrest what crawl ratio will you be running ??

[ISUZUROVER]

but hi-lux rear diffs are known to fail.

Not very often and usually only when you are running 38's and bouncing on rocks.

[rangemann]

Das - not too sure what crawl ratio i will be running. i haven't given it much thought. i figured as it's an auto it wouldn't matter that much going up and being an auto comming back down i'd always be using brakes. consequently i figured it wouldn't matter a great deal. i haven't managed to get out and do some good 'wheeling' so i'm not sure what pitfalls are out there in terms of ratio.

if i decide to go up to 35's(as i probally will cause i can) what ratio will i need? can i use the same ratio for smaller tyres?

[Loanrangie]

Landy man has 4.5 toyo's with 35" pedes and that will crawl over anything, works well with the t/flite auto. If you are going to run say 33's on the road i would go with 4.1's or 4.3's.

[will_warne]

With your budget, most things are possible. I reckon you'd probably be fine sticking with a rover diff, 3.54's aren't that weak. 4.7's are annother story, but you don't hear about many r&p failiers over here anyway...

My setup's ARB airlocker's, standard 3.54 r&p's and maxi drive halfshafts (with AEU 2522 CVs). I did think about Jac Mac but I don't like $corpion Racing (the importer) and I don't want to wait months for parts if I need them. Plus, you can ARB parts pretty much anywhere overhere. I run 35" Simex rubber and nothing's gone bang yet.

[GURU]

I run 35" Simex rubber and nothing's gone bang yet.

What terrain do you drive? Not trying to have ago or anything but from what I'm aware most of the UK is mud driving? I know you have some rocks but if you drive mainly mud then you won't break your setup. But I can guarentee that the R&P would fail on continual rock use as the fatigue factor comes in. My disco rear axles lasted about 8 trips before finally breaking, that shows they aren't weak out of the box, just can't handle abuse over time

[ISUZUROVER]

Looks like the nissan CV'S aren't as strong as they are cracked up to be - seems they are the same or worse than stock toyota CV'S.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=28782

[derangedrover]

Looks like the nissan CV'S aren't as strong as they are cracked up to be - seems they are the same or worse than stock toyota CV'S.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=28782

Dont forget to factor in the torque applied, either motor or gearing or combination of, and vehicle weight.

A 22r powered lux weighing ~1800kg compared to a tb/td 42 powered gq weighing ~2300kg.

Would be interesting to see a pic of the two cv's side by side and some measurements.

I know people will cite luxs weighing over 2000kg with big v8's, 39" boggers, dual cases and no cv or cw&p failures but there are plenlty of other examples of failures too with much tamer rigs. Repaet last line but insert Nissan.

There is so many variables the argument can go on forever, driving style/terrain/age of components & fatigue etc etc

Dont get me wrong, if I had the $ I would definately be looking at jac mac/longfield solution, its got everything going for it, good clearance, heaps of ratio choices, more than enough strength for say up to 38" tyres and plenty of abuse, no engineering cert req'd, BUT the nissan stuff is so cheap if you can do the install yourself, and there are options for upgrading the cv's. The stock axles are pretty good in terms of strength, the cw&p also, and the factory rear LSD works well.

I dont like the idea of using a centered diff and an offset output tcase in a 100" WB rig but some people are making it work apparently. That means you need a drivelibne change to run gq diffs, but depending what your starting with and what you want to achieve, in what timeframe and for how many dollars, the gq diffs are a fair choice. They wont stop you breaking cv's, but the cv's appear to be the only real weak link, and just like lux's are upgradeable.

Cheers
Daryl

[GURU]

Well Done Daryl, you sumed it up perfectly.

I wonder if the fact the CV's only rely on grease (both toy and nissan) plays any part in there failure? I mean when they get hot the grease would liquify and run out of the CV (to a point) meaning less lubrication.

where Rovers are run in oil all the time

[will_warne]

I run 35" Simex rubber and nothing's gone bang yet.

What terrain do you drive? Not trying to have ago or anything but from what I'm aware most of the UK is mud driving? I know you have some rocks but if you drive mainly mud then you won't break your setup. But I can guarentee that the R&P would fail on continual rock use as the fatigue factor comes in. My disco rear axles lasted about 8 trips before finally breaking, that shows they aren't weak out of the box, just can't handle abuse over time

Yeah most of the stuff over here is mud, we get a tiny bit of rock and a fair bit of dry mud in the summer. Even though the muds pretty slippy, we do still get shock loading. We don't get the fatigue but when a spinning Centipede gets grip, things go bang. The strange thing is that gearboxes seem to let go before r&ps 3.54s anyway....

[GURU]

The strange thing is that gearboxes seem to let go before r&ps 3.54s anyway....

WOW

what gearbox's go ?

[Maggot4x4]

Looks like the nissan CV'S aren't as strong as they are cracked up to be - seems they are the same or worse than stock toyota CV'S.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=28782

Dont forget to factor in the torque applied, either motor or gearing or combination of, and vehicle weight.

A 22r powered lux weighing ~1800kg compared to a tb/td 42 powered gq weighing ~2300kg.

Would be interesting to see a pic of the two cv's side by side and some measurements.

I know people will cite luxs weighing over 2000kg with big v8's, 39" boggers, dual cases and no cv or cw&p failures but there are plenlty of other examples of failures too with much tamer rigs. Repaet last line but insert Nissan.

There is so many variables the argument can go on forever, driving style/terrain/age of components & fatigue etc etc

Dont get me wrong, if I had the $ I would definately be looking at jac mac/longfield solution, its got everything going for it, good clearance, heaps of ratio choices, more than enough strength for say up to 38" tyres and plenty of abuse, no engineering cert req'd, BUT the nissan stuff is so cheap if you can do the install yourself, and there are options for upgrading the cv's. The stock axles are pretty good in terms of strength, the cw&p also, and the factory rear LSD works well.

I dont like the idea of using a centered diff and an offset output tcase in a 100" WB rig but some people are making it work apparently. That means you need a drivelibne change to run gq diffs, but depending what your starting with and what you want to achieve, in what timeframe and for how many dollars, the gq diffs are a fair choice. They wont stop you breaking cv's, but the cv's appear to be the only real weak link, and just like lux's are upgradeable.

Cheers
Daryl

I have run GQ's for many years before the last few trucks. Never broke a cv and the smallest tyres I ran were 35's. And I can promise you these trucks did not get an easy life.

The only diff problem I had was I snapped a rear pinion at the bottom of Porters Road and that was only cause I landed on it. Was still able to drive it as it snapped on the outside of the housing. Drove out of Porters in front wheel drive only.

To give you an idea, the only thing I couldn't keep under the GQ's was rear trailing arms. No matter how strong I made them the would last 2-3 months and end up looking like a toilet s bend.

Thats why I am in the process of putting GQ diffs under my 350 chev rangie. The other advantage is the increase in track width for off road side angles. I also have 3" spacers I will be running with my 38's.

[will_warne]

The strange thing is that gearboxes seem to let go before r&ps 3.54s anyway....

WOW

what gearbox's go ?

Anything and everything. The one I saw that split a casing was an LT95 (thats pretty rare, though) but he has a VERY led foot and he's had a few 4 pin diffs escape through the rear axle casings.

ZF 4 speeds also seem to like to go on Tdi vehicles. I know of two auto boxed Tdi that have knacked autoboxes.

Don't even start on Series 'boxes. A guy I know who runs a Tdi engined SIII on 34" Jungle Trekkers has gone through 6 gear boxes in the last two years

Early R380s also have a habit of snapping mainshafts (I've got cash set aside for when mine blows).

Really, the only one that seems bullet proof is the old 3-speed auto.

[derangedrover]

The strange thing is that gearboxes seem to let go before r&ps 3.54s anyway....

WOW

what gearbox's go ?

Anything and everything. The one I saw that split a casing was an LT95 (thats pretty rare, though) but he has a VERY led foot and he's had a few 4 pin diffs escape through the rear axle casings.

ZF 4 speeds also seem to like to go on Tdi vehicles. I know of two auto boxed Tdi that have knacked autoboxes.

Don't even start on Series 'boxes. A guy I know who runs a Tdi engined SIII on 34" Jungle Trekkers has gone through 6 gear boxes in the last two years

Early R380s also have a habit of snapping mainshafts (I've got cash set aside for when mine blows).

Really, the only one that seems bullet proof is the old 3-speed auto.

This is another reason I have chosen to go the nissan route.
As much as I like the LT230, there just isnt a gearbox (with an overdrive) to put in front of it to handle 200 odd kw reliably at a reasonable cost, especially if you want a manual. So, use a gq 5 speed, then solve the gearing probs with duals or tcase gears, about the same price and stronger than a built ZF or replacing r380/lt 77 frequently.
Why not just buy a gq shorty you say? Too heavy, too expensive, harder to turn into a tray back, and I still like rangies, just not the prospect of continually having drivetrain breakages.

As an aside, I spoke to CORE, and they said they hadn't had great sucess with their cv's in GQ's, stating that the star is too thin between the axle and outer edge, so eventually they still break here through fatigue. But the case he used as illustartion was a comp vehicle that was breaking 2 or 3 cv's per comp and lasted 10 comps on their cv's before a breakage, a GQ tray with 38's. Approx $360 +gst per side, no warranty.

I think i'll try TC on the front first and see what happens.

Cheers
Daryl

[uninformed]

Will, i,m just wondering with the high amount of gearbox failures you guys are having, it may have something to do with the amount of wet/mud driving you do. mabe water and shit getting in????

serg

[will_warne]

Serg, I don't think the failiers are due to water/mud ingress. I think its just the HUGE shock loads we put through them on a regular basis.

[Carl Coight]

I've got GQ's front and rear with 35's on 15x10's.
Put them in myself, too fuken easy!
Don't settle for second best you have 4k to spend , bring the car to me and i will do the job for ya.
All this crap about this SHOULD be strong enough and that SHOULD be strong enough, it don't mean shit when you are in the middle of nowhere and trying to get home on 1 front wheel drive because you blew a Hilux rear and corefield cv.
Do the job right FIRST GO and don't settle for what everybody else is doing.
If you are worried about GQ cv's you have got the cash to put in GU diffs.
Don't stuff around.
Cheers Carl