Traction Control

[MARKx4]

Were do you get it and how much does it cost? Im looking at it as a option instead of twin lockers.

[POS]

You would be refering to "Haultech Traction Control". You would have to check but i am certain "Overkill engineering" is a stockest!

Give them a call!

[spazbot]

think sam said the price is around 2.5k fitted for front and rears

[Strange Rover]

think sam said the price is around 2.5k fitted for front and rears

Yea - something like that. We still arnt at the selling stage but should be in the next month or so. We will let everybody know when we are ready to start selling it.

Sam

[bad_religion_au]

hey, can you get some demo vids of it in action, like if theirs different stages that you can have (like 1/16th of a revolution compared to 1/2 a revolution) show the difference, maybe show it lifting a wheel and showing how it will act like a locker in this situation, because it sounds intreging, and definately an alternative to lockers, but lockers have been proven by the test of time... would be nice to see the results b4 dishing out cash

[RaginRover]

hey, can you get some demo vids of it in action, like if theirs different stages that you can have (like 1/16th of a revolution compared to 1/2 a revolution) show the difference, maybe show it lifting a wheel and showing how it will act like a locker in this situation, because it sounds intreging, and definately an alternative to lockers, but lockers have been proven by the test of time... would be nice to see the results b4 dishing out cash

Early editions of Haultech's Eletectronic Traction Control has been on vehicles for 4 or 5 years in operation. I have had a prototype for 3 years
without a problem.

Reliability and quality of the components are fantastic - The only bit that can slow you down is if you install an inferior quality compressor. I had serveral cheaper ones (shat themselves) until I got a decent one which produces huge amounts of air and has 100% duty cycle. This is the one that is recommended for the system.

Tom

[ISUZUROVER]

hey, can you get some demo vids of it in action, like if theirs different stages that you can have (like 1/16th of a revolution compared to 1/2 a revolution) show the difference, maybe show it lifting a wheel and showing how it will act like a locker in this situation, because it sounds intreging, and definately an alternative to lockers, but lockers have been proven by the test of time... would be nice to see the results b4 dishing out cash

Have a look at the PUOSU videos (not sure if demo or final - look at both). There is a good shot of Sam's Lockless monstar climbing a ledge (shot from in front). You can see the traction control working there.

I have seen it working (in person) on a few rigs and I am very impressed - it works much better than the factory Land Rover traction control.

[Nev62]

think sam said the price is around 2.5k fitted for front and rears

Yea - something like that. We still arnt at the selling stage but should be in the next month or so. We will let everybody know when we are ready to start selling it.

Sam

I am now intrigued. At the price, it makes it a very good alternative to dual lockers. How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles and are they brand/model dependant like lockers?

[RaginRover]

think sam said the price is around 2.5k fitted for front and rears

Yea - something like that. We still arnt at the selling stage but should be in the next month or so. We will let everybody know when we are ready to start selling it.

Sam

I am now intrigued. At the price, it makes it a very good alternative to dual lockers. How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles and are they brand/model dependant like lockers?

Not brand/make dependent - fit any 4x4

Tom

[ISUZUROVER]

How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles

The only thing you need to fit the system is a separate brake line to each wheel (4 channel brakes). So you may need to do some brake plumbing for the rear (or mount the rear actuators on the diff if this is possible), but that is all.

[Nev62]

How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles

The only thing you need to fit the system is a separate brake line to each wheel (4 channel brakes). So you may need to do some brake plumbing for the rear (or mount the rear actuators on the diff if this is possible), but that is all.

Woo Hoo! At last, something good and useful that will fit the Raider (oh, and Couriers and B2600s and...)

[ISUZUROVER]

How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles

The only thing you need to fit the system is a separate brake line to each wheel (4 channel brakes). So you may need to do some brake plumbing for the rear (or mount the rear actuators on the diff if this is possible), but that is all.

Woo Hoo! At last, something good and useful that will fit the Raider (oh, and Couriers and B2600s and...)

Have they got 4-channel brakes like rangies do?

[Nev62]

How hard would it be to fit on non ABS vehicles

The only thing you need to fit the system is a separate brake line to each wheel (4 channel brakes). So you may need to do some brake plumbing for the rear (or mount the rear actuators on the diff if this is possible), but that is all.

Woo Hoo! At last, something good and useful that will fit the Raider (oh, and Couriers and B2600s and...)

Have they got 4-channel brakes like rangies do?

Will have Only 2-channel right now, front and rear

[dumbdunce]

Woo Hoo! At last, something good and useful that will fit the Raider (oh, and Couriers and B2600s and...)

I have developed a universal fitment differential lock that will fit the Raider, Nev.. it's a little hard to unlock, but only costs fitty bucks. couple of metres of .8mm wire, few litres of argoshield gas, and a handful of electric. drop your diff in and in half an hour you have a near bulletproof locker, front or rear

[ISUZUROVER]

Will have Only 2-channel right now, front and rear

Surely it is at least 3-channel (one separate line to each front wheel)? So you would just have to plumb in a second rear brake line.

[Begbie]

Like lockers, could you do the front and then 6 months later do the rear, and it could cost $1250 each time?

[Nev62]

I have developed a universal fitment differential lock that will fit the Raider, Nev.. it's a little hard to unlock, but only costs fitty bucks. couple of metres of .8mm wire, few litres of argoshield gas, and a handful of electric. drop your diff in and in half an hour you have a near bulletproof locker, front or rear

Had one of those in the old speedway car but the cost was a bit different. Handfull of old nuts&bolts, couple of electrodes and a bit of electricty.

[Nev62]

Will have Only 2-channel right now, front and rear

Surely it is at least 3-channel (one separate line to each front wheel)? So you would just have to plumb in a second rear brake line.

Two lines from the master cylinder into a distribution block. From there, single line to each of the front wheels and single line to rear right (which then breaks out to the rear left).

This is what you get with the "unwanted illegitimate child" of the 4WD aftermarket scene.

[chimpboy]

I'm not knocking this at all because it sounds way cool, but would it be fair to say that, if they are available for your car, you'd still be better off spending the money on a pair of air lockers?

Jason

[Nev62]

I'm not knocking this at all because it sounds way cool, but would it be fair to say that, if they are available for your car, you'd still be better off spending the money on a pair of air lockers?

Jason

The big 4 words here are "if they are available". Depends on who you talk to at ARB. I was told that they are "developing" a front diff lock for Courier/B2600 whilst someone else on this forum was told they are "developing" a rear diff lock. We were both told release date is early next year.

[RaginRover]

but would it be fair to say that, if they are available for your car, you'd still be better off spending the money on a pair of air lockers?

Jason

Not really IMO - considering strangerovers current comp rig has no lockers in it at all and run Electronic Traction Control full time
then I would say it is good enough for a b2600 -

for heavens sake where is his car going to need that much ability ? What tracks is he going to drive where this will not outperform his ability as a driver and the ability of his car ?

Nowhere.

Tom

[Strange Rover]

I guess the biggest question is how well does our electronic traction control work? Is it as good as lockers in terms of making a vehicle able to drive over stuff?

Let me state first off that in terms of getting the most amount of traction possible you can never do any better than a 100% locking differential.


So looking at hardcore type wheeling (like competition type stuff etc) - I would guess that in well over 90% of situations that requires twin lockers to get through you will get exactly the same result with our traction control. Now in the last 10% of situations you will definately notice that the traction control behaves differently to the lockers. The most common situation for me would be a steep rocky climb with offset ledges - something that you need to drive with throttle and momentum (whether lockers or ETC) - with the ETC you will start to notice the time delay and extra wheelspin that the traction control needs to operate. If the climb is difficult enough then you may find that a rig with lockers will be able to drive it and one with ETC wont. That being said I have never found an obstacle that I could drive with double lockers (ARB) that I couldnt drive totally open diffed with the traction control (this was back in the day when I ran ARB'd dana 44s as well as the traction control on the blue rover with 36in tyres and then 42in tyres)

These last 10% of situations are also the places that you really risk breaking something (like CVs or crownwheels for instance). The traction control is just so much easier on axle components. I would guess that an ARBed axle with 35in tyres would be about the same strength as a traction controlled axle with 42s - and Im totally serious on this point. The traction control is just that much easier on axles it isnt funny. Out of the hard core rigs that I wheel with that run hilux front CVs which is basically myself on 38s, Adrian on 38s and Rob on 42s that run front traction control compared with Tony on 38s and Beebee on 38s with front lockers the difference is amazing. Myself, Adrian and Rob drive the arse out of our rigs with absolutely no concern with front axle breakage and we rearly break CVs. Tony, who really drives carefully with his front locker breaks more CVs than the 3 of us combined and Beebee, who drives the arse out of his rig with his front locker breaks more than Tony again.

So it really depends on how strong your axles are. If you got axles that you carnt break then the lockers are the perfect choice - you could never do better than that but if you are worried about breaking stuff (particularly the front axle) and you find yourself turning off the front locker on the difficult throttling climbs or only use the front locker as an absolutely last resort then the traction control will probably make the rig more capable.

At the moment in my tube buggy which runs hilux limited slips and traction control (no lockers at all which is why its called the Lockless) there is nothing that this rig hasnt been able to drive that has been driven by Tony (twin lockers), Adrian (rear locker and front traction control) the Mogrover (twin lockers), Beebee (twin lockers), or Rob (rear locker and front traction control). In fact there is one new climb that so far only the Lockless had managed to drive and nobody else has. Tony has been out there a couple of times and he has broken both times and has yet to drive it. It took me a few tries to get it (cause its a bit offcamber) and I actually rolled completely over back onto my wheels before i drove it on my next attempt.


In the non hard core type wheeling, the sort of wheeling that you are going to do with your wife and kids in the car, I couldnt imagine there will be a situation where the traction control wont work as well as the lockers. It will probably work better because its totally automatic - you just turn it on and forget about it whether you are driving uphill, downhill, corning or on the flat. The traction control wont do a thing until you need it. The second big plus for this type of rig that again the traction control is just so much easier on the axles and CVs. And the traction control will fit any vehicle - its only the bracketry that will be different.

So if you are going to build a full on comp rig. Is the traction control something you should look at? I would say definately yes especially on the front axle. Most modern rear axles are strong enough to handle a rear locker so a locker there is the best way to go but in the front if you got some bigger tyres and reasonable horsepower then the traction control without a locker will probably make a better rig simple because you will be able to drive it harder without breaking it. On a full comp rig I probably wouldnt run it in the rear because there are times when the time delay of the traction control might slow you down - the lockless doesent have a rear locker and I do notice that its not locked although this hasnt ever stopped me driving anywhere that a rear locked rid has driven (like Tony or Adrian). Most modern rigs do have factory rear limited slip diffs and the traction control working on a limited slip diff is very, very close to a 100% locker. If you are running 35 spline cro mo shafts and CTMs on a Dana 60 then lockers will be best

Sam

[Utemad]

What is it exactly that you get with this setup? How does it work?

Someone here mentioned an air compressor is needed. What for?

Can you use this on bitumen like a factory traction control?

What is installed in the wheels to detect overspeed or whatever it is it detects?

How are the brakes applied?

Does this system require frequent brake pad changes?

[grazza]

So is ETC an option for me with a GQ SWB, rear LSD, front LOKKA (which I am tempted to remove for a Cape York trip)???

Can you please paste in some info on how your ETC works. I cant find any info on the Haultech web site.

Also, if its so great, how come I have never met anyone running it? (not having a dig)

thanks

[Strange Rover]

Also, if its so great, how come I have never met anyone running it? (not having a dig)

Because we are too buisy making airconditioners and tube buggies ..... but seriously we havnt started selling it yet - the setup is only on a few of our mates cars - its currently on a few rangies, a GQ, on both axles of my comp buggy, and on the front axle of Adrians (POS) and Robs (BJ on roids) comp rigs and the front of Overkills zuk.

And this is also the reason why I have never got together the info on it but we will and also im sure we will make demo vids of how it operates.


But here is a quick run down on how it operates:

We put speed sensors on each wheel which normally consists of a thin steel disc with lots of 12mm holes in it that the speed sensor looks at. This disc just sits in behind the wheel over the studs. The latest way that we are doing this is to place a band of thin steel with the holes in it over the disc brake hub and have the sensor looking at that. The sensor normally mounts off the brake caliper mount bolts. For a drum brake the sensor plate sits on the inside of the drum and so does the speed sensor itself.

The sensors (4 of them) are connect back to a computer that makes decisions about whether it should apply brakes to any wheel.

The way it applies the brakes is by controlling air soleniod valves (like the ARB locker valves). The valves apply air pressure into 4 individual air chambers that apply force to the 4 brake master cylinder that apply the brakes to the 4 individual wheels via the existing wheel brakes. So this is why you need an air compressor to run the system. Also you can see that the individual master cylinder must have an individual brake line running to each wheel brake which is why you need "4 channel" brakes. If you only got 3 or 2 channel brakes (or 1 channel for that matter) then it doesent matter cause you just run extra brake lines and flex lines if needed.

The whole setup is totally tested and ADR compliant and is totally certifiable although at this point each vehicle that the setup is installed on has to be certified individually.

The installation will have to be carried out by trained personel it probably isnt something that you could do by yourselves (although you probably could). In the future it may be because we will make kits for the individual makes so that everything will be a bolt in affair but we arnt there yet.

Sam

[Strange Rover]

Can you use this on bitumen like a factory traction control?


Does this system require frequent brake pad changes?

Works fine on the bitumen and we havnt noticed increase brake wear although I sure it does. The actual brake forces and heat that the traction control generates is very small compared to the brake forces and heat driving around in traffic.

Sam

[RaginRover]

Can you use this on bitumen like a factory traction control?


Does this system require frequent brake pad changes?

Works fine on the bitumen and we havnt noticed increase brake wear although I sure it does. The actual brake forces and heat that the traction control generates is very small compared to the brake forces and heat driving around in traffic.

Sam

I have left mine on by accident for a week after being out wheeling and I only noticed when my rangie went over a high point in the road and bounced up (I was driving too fast) - the ETC came on and pulled my vechicle back straight - it was quite re-assuring if anything.

When you are out driving - like a back duck or land cruiser mountain park, you would be lucky if ETC was on for 5 mins all up in a day of wheeling.

I have had pad changes on schedule since ETC has been installed.

Tom

[grazza]

Why do you custom make the wheel speed sensors when current ABS systems already use hall-effect, LED or reluctance sensors from people like SSI? Do your sensors get effected by mud?
Also, is your system much different to the OE systems from Jeep/Toyota/Range Rover, etc?
Its just I have read some not-so glowing reviews in the 4WD mags about some of the traction control system, particularly mentioning situtation where ETC is a hindrance (cant think what those situation are though)

From you previous posts I am getting the impression that you system is similar in cost to the double-locker setup, except it does not put as much strain on other components like CV's - which a non-mechanic person like me wants to avoid breaking in the bush.

[RaginRover]

Why do you custom make the wheel speed sensors when current ABS systems already use hall-effect, LED or reluctance sensors from people like SSI? Do your sensors get effected by mud?
Also, is your system much different to the OE systems from Jeep/Toyota/Range Rover, etc?
Its just I have read some not-so glowing reviews in the 4WD mags about some of the traction control system, particularly mentioning situtation where ETC is a hindrance (cant think what those situation are though)

From you previous posts I am getting the impression that you system is similar in cost to the double-locker setup, except it does not put as much strain on other components like CV's - which a non-mechanic person like me wants to avoid breaking in the bush.

IMO the main reason that factory ETC is poor is because of the lack of sensitivity in the ABS sensors. Thare hugely inaccruate at low speeds.

This is a key component of Haultech's ETC - their sensors are worth something around the $125 each mark. Robust and the bracketry protects them and provides shielding from rocks and mud etc. I have never had a problem with mud or the sensors not working.

Grazza - have you read all of Sam's post ? I think that would answer your question regarding performance vs OEM systems. As in OEM system DO NOT COMPARE the this product in any way.

Have you priced double lockers fitted ? at the $2.5K for all 4 fitted I believe it is nearly half the price of fitted front and rear - I got the impression that air lockers were around $2k each for front and rear ?

Tom

[dumbdunce]

Have you priced double lockers fitted ? at the $2.5K for all 4 fitted I believe it is nearly half the price of fitted front and rear - I got the impression that air lockers were around $2k each for front and rear ?

Tom

drive in-drive out 'victim' price for air locker installation on a landcruiser or hilux (about the easiest airlocker installations there are) is around $1700 - $1800 (possibly cheaper) for the first one inclduing wiring and ARB compressor, around $1300 - $1400 for the second one. If you negotiate a decent price for the lockers they can be had for around $1000 each, installations can be arranged for around $150, and they're certainly not beyond being installed by a 3 - 4 banana shade tree mechanic. The cheapest nastiest $20 k-mart compressor is sufficient to run them, with a handful of air fittings and a pressure switch, so it is possible to be twin air locked for slightly less than $2500, but you have to haggle hard and/or know some people.